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Timstone January 15th, 2004 02:28 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Yeah! Post 3600!! Jippie!
Okay, back to work... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Klebdog January 21st, 2004 03:08 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Swordsman - I just used your layout for the B5 Patches on my Gold Version and it finally started up without any problems. I had to adjust some little things in the AI Setting files (Had to Add % of ships for Defense) and a couple of lines to the General file, but after that the game ran smooth. I'll keep you posted if I get any error's

Timstone January 29th, 2004 09:14 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Okay, I've finaly finished work on the main help file. Because I can't upload it to shrapnel, I've received help from SJ to make it available to the people here.
Tomorrow we'll exchange the files and it will be availble to you soon after... I hope.
Hang on and watch this thread, It's soon going to be a busy place again.

gregebowman January 29th, 2004 09:21 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Timstone:
Okay, I've finaly finished work on the main help file. Because I can't upload it to shrapnel, I've received help from SJ to make it available to the people here.
Tomorrow we'll exchange the files and it will be availble to you soon after... I hope.
Hang on and watch this thread, It's soon going to be a busy place again.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great news!! Can't wait to play this mod.

Timstone February 3rd, 2004 03:11 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Damn it! My work account has made the files I send to my home account unreadable. It won't let me send the files. I'll just have to take the files with me on a rewritable. Sigh... more delay. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Growltigger February 3rd, 2004 03:27 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Does anyone know where (or if) there is a good Centauri shipset and AI? I use the Narn often, but would love to see those Centauri vessels zipping around the SEIVG map

Fyron February 3rd, 2004 04:10 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Have you checked on PBW?

Growltigger February 3rd, 2004 04:21 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Fyron, I havn't but that is only because every time I went on PBW, it was down. I shall try now.

oleg February 3rd, 2004 04:57 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Growltigger:
Does anyone know where (or if) there is a good Centauri shipset and AI? I use the Narn often, but would love to see those Centauri vessels zipping around the SEIVG map
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Centauri shipset was included in Bab5 racepicture download, I think.
http://www.geocities.com/b5mod/B5ModHome.html

and ger RaceFiles.zip

AI will not work in stock game of course. You will need to borrow one from other races.

Timstone February 17th, 2004 08:22 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Bumb. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Timstone February 19th, 2004 08:14 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Everybody, hear hear!

I finaly send the files to SJ and he was so kind to upload them onto his webpage. Here's the link:

B5 Mod 2.0 Weapon Construction Files

Please remember I'm not a programmer and my skills with Excel aren't that good. These files are just a little help for creating the weapons for the B5 Mod 2.0. In the past I got quite a few Messages from people who wanted to help with 2.0, my steady reply was that I was busy creating a few help files. Well here's your chance! These files can help people create weapons without compromising the gamebalance. And without too many questions.
In the very near future I'll give some more guidelines for weaponery (how weapons many per race, which class of weapons (light, medium, heavy, etc.) for which race, what they can target and on what kind of vehicle they can be mounted).

If you have suggestions, comments, questions or demands, please feel free to post them here.

I know you all have been waiting for these files for quite some time now. I can only say I'm sorry. I really needed some time to puzzle all the info into 2 files, correct errors/typo's and I had to deal with life itself too. Well enough apologies and explanation, let's DL theses files and give your opinion!

Hail to B5 and it's fans!

P.S. Special thanks for SJ who made it possible to DL these files.

Timstone February 22nd, 2004 05:15 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Nice of you guys and girls to post some feedback...
Hope you people are still out there.

pathfinder February 22nd, 2004 06:39 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Sorry, I have not been paying too much attention here. I'll check out the file Timstone and post my impressions.

Timstone February 22nd, 2004 07:30 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Wohoo! A response by none other than Da Path! Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

pathfinder February 24th, 2004 05:28 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Looks ok by me Timstone. Though in all honesty all those numbers make my head hurt. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

That why I did not fiddle with the weapons myself.

Timstone February 24th, 2004 08:00 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Haha, alrighty then! Thanks for the reply. I'll just go ahead with the weapons then.
But seriuosly, no comments?! Hmm... maybe it's just a good file, I made. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron February 24th, 2004 07:36 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
I think that everyone that was involved with the B5 Mod is now dead or something. Or just gone... either way... :-\

grumbler February 25th, 2004 04:58 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Just downloaded the file now. I will look at the numbers as best I can, and get back to you. Good to see some progress on this - I was getting concerned the project was dying.

Personally, the Last time I played with this mod (well, my mod of this mod, anyway) was... today. Finally shook the "Victoria" bug that has laid me low the Last few weeks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

grumbler February 25th, 2004 05:01 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
On a seperate subject, I wondered if anyone thought the announcement that there is a new B5 project afoot would add interest in this project? I would have thought the DVD releases would have done the trick, but no joy.

Timstone February 25th, 2004 12:41 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Huh? New B5 project? What do you mean, please explain.

Oh, good to see you back here Grumbler!

grumbler February 26th, 2004 06:31 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Timstone:
Huh? New B5 project? What do you mean, please explain.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">JMS announced late Last year that he was finalizing a new project, not print and not a series, regarding B5. The initials of the title are all we know: B5:TMoS. Most speculation inthe community is that this is "Babylon 5: The Memory of Shadows" since at one point JMS announced that someone on the newsgroup had, in fact, guessed the right title and at that time most of the guesses were on the order of "The Meaning of Spoo."

Could be a computer game, but that's not likely, because he has referred to the efforts neded to get the script finished. Most likely, it is a TV miniseries or a theatrical release.

I think www.b5tv.com has some of the better forum discussions of this. The newsgroup discussions are larger but more disjointed. The actual postings of JMS can be gotten through www.jmsnews.com

gregebowman February 26th, 2004 07:43 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Speaking of B5, one thing has always puzzled me. Was there ever an explanation of how Sinclair travaled back through time to become Valen? I was always curious about this.

Loser February 26th, 2004 07:46 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Vorlon magic.
Wait... there was a whole episode about that. That was the one with that wonder full character Zathrus, who was brought back later, but he just wasn't the same.

"Not the one, not the one, not the ... never use this one..."

He had some great lines.

gregebowman February 26th, 2004 07:50 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Loser:
Vorlon magic.
Wait... there was a whole episode about that. That was the one with that wonder full character Zathrus, who was brought back later, but he just wasn't the same.

"Not the one, not the one, not the ... never use this one..."

He had some great lines.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I remember the episode where B4 showed up, and this one odd character was on the station. Don't remember the name, and since this was a first season show, Sinclair was still on B5. Then after B4 went through the time warp (or whatever they called it), there was an older Sinclair on the station. But IIRC, there was no explanation of Valen's origin.

Loser February 26th, 2004 08:11 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Yeah, well, they had another one during the Sheridan years that cleared all that up.

Timstone February 26th, 2004 09:19 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Loser:
Vorlon magic.
Wait... there was a whole episode about that. That was the one with that wonder full character Zathrus, who was brought back later, but he just wasn't the same.

"Not the one, not the one, not the ... never use this one..."

He had some great lines.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The correct name of the character is Zathras. And he's not alone, he's got many brothers. All named Zathras. Confusing isn't it?

The episodes you're all looking for is "War Without End part 1 & 2". I'm not going to explain the episodes right now. I'm too tired. Sorry, you'll have to watch it for yourself. It's quite complicated. If you don't understand these two episodes you probabely end up thinkling this is just another "El Cheapo" serie.

Grumbler: Thanks! I'll go on and read it when I'm awake again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
I must say I didn't know about this. Shame on me.

[ February 26, 2004, 19:25: Message edited by: Timstone ]

gregebowman February 26th, 2004 10:07 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Darn, I guess I have to seriously think of putting the B5 series on layaway. but it seems like every time I put one of these dvd sets on layaway, something comes up and I have to cancel the layaway because I need the money. I'll try to this year, and hopefully I can pay it off before another one of those emergencies comes up.

Timstone February 29th, 2004 10:57 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
So I understand nobody has found something he/she would like to change about my help files? Hehe, I've made a perfect program then. Yeah, I can do something M!cr0s0ft has never done in it's long existence. Hah, I'm close to godhood.

grumbler March 1st, 2004 01:28 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Quote:

Originally posted by gregebowman:
But IIRC, there was no explanation of Valen's origin.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sinclair became Valen via the same triluminary process that changed Delenn, only in reverse. In fact, I asumed when I saw the show that the tliluminary used was Delenn's, and since she inherited it from Valen's time, and he got it from her, that meant it was never actually created!

Unfortunately, JMS took away that bit of fun by pointing out the Sinclair's triluminary came from the (Not So) Great machine.

grumbler March 1st, 2004 01:42 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Timstone:
So I understand nobody has found something he/she would like to change about my help files? Hehe, I've made a perfect program then. Yeah, I can do something M!cr0s0ft has never done in it's long existence. Hah, I'm close to godhood.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like the process very much, but it doesn't answer some of my fundamental questions, like
1) Should lasers outrange plasma cannons? In SD the Alexander fires at the Roanoke using plasma cannons (I think that's what the weapons were, unless they were pulse cannons) right at the start, but has to close the range "right down their throats" before firing her lasers.
2) Are we assuming that the interceptors used to stop plasma/pulse cannon attacks are incorporated into the ECM system? But then how to explain B5's use of the interceptors offensively against the "Roanoke"? And how to account for fighters used as interceptor both against missiles (as shown explicitly in Endgame) and, from what JMS has said, implicitly against plasma/pulse attacks?
3) No missiles are ever shown (AFAICR) being fired by ships? Why not?

Note that I lack the B5 Wars books, so I have only series canon to go on with this, but since we are trying to match the series and not the books, I feel a need to see some discussion on this. The stuff in the early days of this thread seemed to be entirely between people who had the B5W books.

Oh, and there is one correction I would make to your instructions, Tim. Before you can edit the weapons file to make it suitable for inclusion in compnents.txt, you need to paste it in the notepad. You cannot edit the clipboard viewer (I know, 'cause I tried). So there is a step left out.

Timstone March 2nd, 2004 09:40 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Quote:

Originally posted by grumbler:
I like the process very much, but it doesn't answer some of my fundamental questions, like
1) Should lasers outrange plasma cannons? In SD the Alexander fires at the Roanoke using plasma cannons (I think that's what the weapons were, unless they were pulse cannons) right at the start, but has to close the range "right down their throats" before firing her lasers.
2) Are we assuming that the interceptors used to stop plasma/pulse cannon attacks are incorporated into the ECM system? But then how to explain B5's use of the interceptors offensively against the "Roanoke"? And how to account for fighters used as interceptor both against missiles (as shown explicitly in Endgame) and, from what JMS has said, implicitly against plasma/pulse attacks?
3) No missiles are ever shown (AFAICR) being fired by ships? Why not?

Note that I lack the B5 Wars books, so I have only series canon to go on with this, but since we are trying to match the series and not the books, I feel a need to see some discussion on this. The stuff in the early days of this thread seemed to be entirely between people who had the B5W books.

Oh, and there is one correction I would make to your instructions, Tim. Before you can edit the weapons file to make it suitable for inclusion in compnents.txt, you need to paste it in the notepad. You cannot edit the clipboard viewer (I know, 'cause I tried). So there is a step left out.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because you lack the B5 Wars books, you didn't know there are some important data included there. But if you read carefully and give some test input on my sheet, you can see it from the sheet itself.
Range is determined by the damage deterioration. And that is included in the B5 Wars books.

The sheet I made doesn't give answers on the vehicles a weapon can be mounted, nor does it give answer to the question what target it can fire upon. I must set clear standards for that yet. I have good idea's, but they need to be typed out first.

In the beginning (when I came up with the idea to make 2.0), I explained why I wanted to use the B5 Wars books and not the series as the blueprint for 2.0.
1) The series are very contradictory, what can be done in one episode can't be done in another. Don't ask me for examples, but I'm sure there are such instances.
2) The B5 Wars books are already invented, they represent a gaming system that already has proven itself. Why invent the wheel again?!
3) The data from the books is easily translated into SE IV "language".

Hold in mind that the B5 Wars Books show generalisation. A good explanation for statement 1) is that every race has it's own weaponery, it's own modifications to it. So they perform different. Maybe the ship's captain has altered it's weaponery somewhat, who knows.
Anyway I wanted to adopt the B5 Wars books mainly because of statement 2) and 3). I'm a lazy type of guy.

Thanks for the comment on the instructions. I use a Dutch Version of XP, so I don't know the English names too well. It will be altered.

Anything else?

P.S. Thanks for the comments Grumbler. I salute you.

Edit: Typo's, damn them!!

[ March 02, 2004, 07:42: Message edited by: Timstone ]

Antarian March 2nd, 2004 10:50 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Hi. It`s been a while since my Last visit...
Any update on the mod status? Is it way down the hill or what? What have you run out of people? Fun? Money? Time? Luck? Human resources? About a month ago a was in NY and bought 3 seasons of the show! Dudes, that`s the stuuuuffff. Plenti of data to use. Images to extract and etc. But you also do have those DVDs. But you still seem to have no inspiration? Or am i mistaken?
P.S. Excuse my poor english, typos and so on. Not native to eng-speaking countries. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Timstone March 3rd, 2004 11:44 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
We're still somewhat busy on the mod, but real life takes it's toll. I must regret to say we still haven't got anything to download yet. Well, exept for some mysterious help files.
My best advise is to sit tight and wait for another update.

Antarian March 4th, 2004 11:27 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Greetings again. Is it possible to answer the following questions:
1) Who is responsible for mod development now?
2) Who is Val and where is he now? (After his... hm... departure mt erythinig is on a halt.)
3) On what stage is the mod now?
4) Who has the latest files?
5) What do you need in order to finish the mod?
6) Why not update at least one site about this mod?
Thanx.

pathfinder March 4th, 2004 11:51 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Antarian:
Greetings again. Is it possible to answer the following questions:
1) Who is responsible for mod development now?
2) Who is Val and where is he now? (After his... hm... departure mt erythinig is on a halt.)
3) On what stage is the mod now?
4) Who has the latest files?
5) What do you need in order to finish the mod?
6) Why not update at least one site about this mod?
Thanx.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1-Timstone (MOD 2).
2-Val was originator of MOD, disappeared around November 2002
3-MOD 1 (Val Version) complete ((mostly)
4-Search the new mod forum for the files. OR search this thread....I posted them back in June 2003
5-*shrug* In my opoinion is done except for a few bugs and some weapons balancing
6-This site/thread is updated with the latest of MOD 1.

[ March 04, 2004, 21:53: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

solops March 5th, 2004 11:16 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
ModCore Version 30 of the Bab 5 Mod is available for download at http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/B5Web.htm for both SEIV 1.49 and SEIV Gold.

However, three additional updates are also available bringing it up to Update33.

BUT no comment is made on whether these are compatible with both SEIV Gold and SEIV 1.49. Since the mod was originally for SEIV 1.49 there is some question as to the updates’ Gold compatibility.

Can anyone clarify this?

grumbler March 7th, 2004 05:34 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
While we are awaiting the new weapons contents of the components file (and I cannot help with that as I have none of the B5 Wars books), I thought it might be useful to discuss the way in which the mod should address the “found techs.” These, right now, are:

20 - Cure for Nano-Plague
21 - Great Machine
22 - Ship Automation
23 - Stellar Balancer
24 - Ancient Neurotech
25 - Ancient Atmospheric Adjuster
26 - Unique Ship Class
27 - Universal Colonizer

20, 21, 23, 24, 25 and 27 have been implemented. I have never seen a use for 23, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen. The rest seem to work as designed (once you correct the GM cannon to be a planetary vice ship weapon).

22, Ship Automation, COULD be implemented by allowing the discoverer to build Shadow-like CPUs, but this seems very much against the canon. Is there any way to have such a component count as two crew quarters and two life support? I haven’t been able to make that work.

24, Ancient Neurotech, can be implemented by creating a new series of facilities that have advantages over existing facilities. Since the description is “Allows your race to create a neural link to enhance research” I created “Neurotech Research Centers” in my mod of the mod to provide enhanced research capabilities. The downside to them in my Version is that you have to progress in both Neurotech and Research before you can upgrade a NRF... but that seems to work out as well.

26, Unique Ship Class, is a bit harder. It is described as “Allows your race to create more unique class of ship based on the wreckage” but the concept of “more unique” is a bit baffling! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I have tried two approaches:
1. Each class of ship now has an “advanced” Version of it, and a la the Whitestars and (possibly) the Warlocks, the “advanced” Version has limited self-repair (one component per turn up to BC, then 2 per turn up to SD, and then 3 for larger). Perhaps a speed bonus could go with it.
2. There is a “unique” hull for each basic ship type (subdestroyers, destroyers, cruisers, battleships, dreadnoughts, baseships, etc) that is built of advanced materials, or whatever, and so has an engine per ton ratio of 1 to 60 instead of 1 to 50.
The disadvantage of the first approach is that I cannot get the AI to use it. The disadvantage of the second approach it that it reduces the variation of ships produced once the tech is discovered.

I would also make two other changes to the unique techs:
1. Make Shadow tech and Vorlon tech (or maybe just the former) discoverable.
2. Make the actual discoverable tech “Cure for Nano-Plague Clues,” “Great Machine Clues,” etc, with the clues simply opening the tech area for research. This makes it the responsibility of the player to decide when to start research into these areas (the AI can be told to research them as a priority), and it also prevents the player from getting level 2 or 3 techs by finding the same tech multiple times.

I have also found that the Stellar Abilities file needs to be updated to allow all of the unique techs, but I will hold off on posting a proposed mod until we reach a consensus on what the unique techs should be.

Thoughts?

Timstone March 7th, 2004 06:11 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Hah, it's great to have you around here Grumbler. I really apreciate all the thinking you do.

The books, no sweat mister. Let's put some sort of roster; who does what.

I say, I make weapons. And the divide them into the proper family, I also would like to take the facilities under my wing.

The rest is out for the grabs.

I will come up with some more rules for the weapons. I won't do all the races in one go, that would be far too much work for one person (I want to implement about 42 races). So I want to include only a few races in the first release of 2.0, I'll see later which races and how many.
If somebody can help me with the rest, please do. I would really appreciate that.


Question: What about the great machine? How should I implement it?

pathfinder March 7th, 2004 09:46 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Quote:

Originally posted by solops:
ModCore Version 30 of the Bab 5 Mod is available for download at http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/B5Web.htm for both SEIV 1.49 and SEIV Gold.

However, three additional updates are also available bringing it up to Update33.

BUT no comment is made on whether these are compatible with both SEIV Gold and SEIV 1.49. Since the mod was originally for SEIV 1.49 there is some question as to the updates’ Gold compatibility.

Can anyone clarify this?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I guess best thing to do is install these and be sure:

Data files for B5 Gold:

1055128545.zip

[ March 07, 2004, 19:48: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Nomor March 8th, 2004 12:10 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Dear All

A recent trawl of the internet on B5 matters came up with the returned http://www.frostjedi.com/vex/
or Voltayre's Encyclopedia Xenobiologica.

I spent some time checking our own histories of races and could not find anything that showed our 1,49 races to be in error, yet.

This site my be of use to those working on the Ancients and other lesser known races.

Regarding recent topics; I can't help but feel that these issues may well have been what caused Val to implode and disappear from this forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Please be careful Timstone . http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Who is Val and where is he now? Did we really ever know? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Back to lurkerland....

grumbler March 8th, 2004 06:50 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Nomor,

Good to hear from you again. Great link, especially as I thought I had discovered most of the good ones long ago (and even more especially as this site links to even more that I hadn't yet found).

Agree that there is a mass of spagetti here to unravel, and that this may have driven Val to distraction. However, I think that we can think the project through logically to a conclusion.

Care is needed, but also boldness, and an understanding of the basic system we are trying to mod. I have learned a lot following Pathfinder's explorations into the AI, and I think that my conclusion is that the AI requirements simplify the problem rather than complicating it. Maybe that is what Val failed to see.

I will have more on this soon, once I finish my (recently resurrected due to inspiration by Timstone) look at how the AI really does design ships.

My bottom line is that the "Val" weapons system seems FAR more complicated than is needed by the system, and that we need to draw the distinction between weapons systems needed for a functioning, unique, and capable AI opponent for each race and the "chrome" systems that are of utility only to human players of that race.

More to follow.

[ March 08, 2004, 04:51: Message edited by: grumbler ]

Fyron March 8th, 2004 07:33 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
One thing that really needs to be done is to change the descriptions of all facilities, components, etc. that have really vague ability descriptions. There is never a good reason not to display the relevant number in-game.

Timstone March 8th, 2004 10:42 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Well good to see discusion going again.
I've begun changing the general weapons according to my homemade Weapon Construction File.

I wholly support Grumblers asumption of taking small steps at a time and have a logical aproach to this wonderful mod.

As far as the facilities concerning, I've given all the facilities a clear description and together with Grumbler (some time ago) we come up with a good way for a starting planet. Even the AI picks it up. Hurray!

Grumbler: PM!

grumbler March 8th, 2004 09:50 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
I think it would probably be pretty easy to get a valid facilities system going, so long as we acknowledge that the needs (and abilities) of the AI have to be priority #1, so that we avoid a facilities setup where "being human" is a hige advantage.

Similarly, we need to design the weapons system from the "top down" IMO, and the starting place for that is a general description of what we would expect a ship of any given type (massive ship, capital ship, carrier, cruiser, destroyer, escort) to have in the way of weapons suites.

That is to say, for example, would we expect a capital ship to be armed with two or three instances of the race's most powerful weapons, or six to eight? Should the capital ship have intermediate weapons, or should it just be primary weapons plus PD weapons? Should it have fighters? How much of the "weapon space" should be devoted to fighters?

Once all of these questions are answered, we can then build an AI model of the capital ship, and determine what the size charactorists of the weapons that will go in it should be. We can duplicate for each ship type down the line. Only THEN do we need to actually start to assemble the weapons characteristics.

The reason why this is a superior model to the "ground up" approach is because it then makes the AI opponent design ships that are fundamentally as good as what the human player builds, instead of having these quirks where the AI has 10kt less space than needed to put in the optimal weapons, and rather than shorting something else (as a human would do) it builds using the second-best weapons.

Plus, building weapons is a lot easier if you know the parameters for size and whatnot ahead of time, and merely adjust power to reflect size.

Anyway, that is my theory. Discussion?

Timstone March 9th, 2004 08:54 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
I thought that Val had already solved the weapons thingy. I thought he already decided how a certain ship would be composed, so I naturaly took on the job to adjust the weapons. Nothing more nothing less. Along the way I discovered I wanted to give the whole system a overhaul. When I tried adjusting the weapons I saw that the whole components.txt was a mess, a true jungle, a nightmare. I decided I would make the next Version of The Mod modular. I wanted to include only a few races at first and later on more races.
So I already I had a pretty good idea how I wanted to see The Mod when it was done.
Because I'm lazy I took on the B5 Wars books as a firm basis for it all. Like I said before, why invent the wheel again? I hoped that most of the problems were already solved by Val (like the ship thingy Grumbler mentioned).
I never asked for assistance because I wanted to do everything myself, soon I realised I couldn't do that. I still didn't ask for help. First I wanted to show the people that read this thread what I had in mind and then I wanted to ask for help.
Slowly my enthusiasm ebbed away. Along came Grumbler. Infusing me with new figor for The Mod.
I know we are the two main characters behind 2.0 (for now), but I still have my vision. I'll explain it.

First release:
Main files in place. Huge amount of quadrants, huge amount of formations, well every add-on file for SE IV would be included. I want the B5 Mod 2.0 not entirely B5 orientated, make it accesable for a large public. Included are only a few races.
Second release:
Adding more races and minor game adjustments.
Third release:
Even more races.

Every race has acces to the General Weapons and can research his racial tech stuff. Ancients cannot colonize and cannot send troops (no troopships). Nomads are uncertain if they can be implemented.

I wanted to follow the original B5 Mod as much as possible. Why? It is goooood.

I really like your thoughts on the facilities, but as far as the weapons concerned. I think we can adjust the ships too. Don't adjust the weapons, but adjust the ships. If you have this relation, you can proceed to making the rest of the facilities and so on. But to save us A LOT of work, I think it is best to leave the main system alone for now and do our primary modifications first. Then we playtest and decided what must be done.
But on the other hand, your aproach makes MUCH MORE sense. I'm a engineer and my guts tell me your way is the way to go.

So lets do it your (Grumbler) way and my way. I finish the general weapons (every racial weapons following this batch will obey the same set of rules) and the facilities. Then we can asses what to change to the ships and the like. Agree? Comments? Demands?

Timstone March 9th, 2004 09:07 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Grumbler: I just read your Mail to me. I'll get back to you.

grumbler March 10th, 2004 06:26 PM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
I think that there may be some misunderstanding of what I am talking about when I say I want to use a common "model" for a ship type. What i mean is that i think we should agree with, for instance, a capital ship should devote (say) 40% of its hull size to weapons, 40% to speed, and 20% to electronics, or whatever. Each race would have different weapons and systems, and so different ships, but the overall outline would remain similar, just as (say) all WWII battleships had between 8 and 10 main guns. No "race" had 20 medium guns on a battleship.

The reason I am so anxious to start with a workable model for the AI_D_C is because it is the hardest thing to make work, and require playtesting to ensue that it works properly. You can automate the process of weapons design somewhat, and a given weapon isn't much changed by being 10% lighter and 10% less powerful, but a 10% change in AI_D_C is huge. If you have seperate "customized" ship designs for each race, you are creating a design monster - the very monster that Val himself dispaired of slaying (remember how the AI designs were always causing RCEs until Path went back and scrubbed them to get them into working order?)

The Mod "as is" is good, but the AI still does not build ships that can compete with a human for design utility. Some of the ships it produces are hardly mobile, while others contain a strange assortment of weapons. Given the complexity of the problem, and the need to make sure the designs WORK before making sure they WORK WELL, I find the suboptimal AI_D_C files quite understandable.

But if you are going to build the ships around the weapons and not the weapons around the ships, you need a lot of people who know how to make AI_D_C work right, and a lot of playtesting time, because that's the only way to do it.

I know, because I have been trying for a year, and I am not there yet.

Timstone March 11th, 2004 10:06 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Okay, now I understand.
If you've been trying for a year and you reached this conclusion, I won't interfere with it. Alright, let's build the weapons around the ships.
Tell me what I must do and I'll do it. The AI is the first thing we need to fix.
I understood it wrong because I thought the diversity was going to be eliminated and I don't want that. I want lots and lots of options and stuff to goof around with. But now you've told me this I see we must make the AI work first. Changing the weapons and such is a piece of cake compared to the AI (I remember the RCE's).

Minotaur March 13th, 2004 05:52 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
Hello to all B5 modders, I’ve been playing the Last update of the B5 mod and find it excellent. I’ve been trying to do my own modifications to the mod (with limited success) and I’m willing to offer any help I can to get Version 2.0 off and running. I’ve only just gotten started trying to change the mod so I’m not sure how much help I can be…but if you need someone to crunch some numbers or just get you guys some coffee…I’m your man.

I agree with both Timestone and Grumble…we need to get the AI running smoothly and then build off that. Once we have a solid base for how the AI will design and use its ships, then we can add as much complexity we want afterwards. There’s nothing worse than playing the mod for 50 turns and moving into an unexplored system only to find it full of escorts and colony ships that are obsolete as hell and can only move one space per turn.

Minotaur March 13th, 2004 05:59 AM

Re: Babylon 5 Mod
 
sorry...meant to say timstone and grumbler...stupid illiteracy.


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