Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I find the best wayto deal with bunkers is with an airstrike/bombardment followed by an assault with engineers or flamethrowers (preferably from the flanks or rear of the emplacement) with armoured support to supress any infantry tanks near the bunker.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

If you have no air support, popping smoke infront ofthe bunker (the tanks should have smoke) normally puts the enemy out of action for a while until you can zap them.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I agree with you guys when you say the Russians are definately over gunned, I looked at the figures in Mobhack for Germany and the USA and you are all absolutely right, The Ruskies really do have a very high ROF, a bit too high.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

ROF of main guns is determined by crew experience in this game and crew experience only. The ROF number in MOBHack has NO effect on the number of shots you get with the main gun in this game. It's all about the crew and how good they are. That's the way it is, that's the way it's going to stay.

There are also a lot of people commenting on how fast a Russian tank can fire who really have no idea how fast a Russian tank can fire. Here's a quote from a Finn who was trained on it...

" I was a mech in the Finnish army half a decade ago. My training was especially for the weapons systems: gun, sights, hydraulics, electronics, autoloader. I've used the loader a number of times, and when I clocked it, loading usually took 7-9 seconds, 10 if the cassette required was furthest away "

7 - 9 seconds is hardly slow is it and I don't hold this quote as the holy grail but it is representative of other's I have read and it's also fair and honest

There are WAY too many people trying to judge how the game works by focusing in on one number in the OOB's. There are 12 numbers that make up a weapon then there are another half dozen in the unit section that determines how well it works. THEN you toss in how good the crew is at their jobs. Looking at ROF then judging that this makes the Russians "Over gunned" isn't even remotely accurate. If this were the case anyone playing as the Russian or with Russian equipment would run roughshod over any "western" opponent and that MOST DEFINITELY does not happen.

Put tanks on a map and play the game to judge how it works

Don

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

DGR,

When you approch the 9-10 second time range then you are talking about a 2 to 1 shot difference in favor of a western tank.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Kevin....I'm not changing the OOB's to give western tanks more of an advantage than they already enjoy when all the other factors are put together. Generally they already enjoy a ROF advantage in many cases because the crew experience it higher. If you consider this some kind of affront to "reality".... that's fine, go ahead and believe that but the OOB's are not changing. The existing ROF of 3 and 4 shots on average isn't even CLOSE to what "theoretically" could be fired by either Russian OR Western tanks given the time and distance they can move on the map in one turn but those are the numbers we use because , when combined with all the other factors in the game it gives a reasonable representation of "reality" even if some things just don't add up. I can live with that. What you want changed is NOT going to change because I know that changing it will screw up the game play and in the end, it is a game. The topic has been flogged to death. You have not and will not convince me that this is something that needs to be done. Give it a rest.

Don

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

"One other thing, how do you un-load the tube of a 125mm gun with the auto-loader if you have the wrong ammo in the tube?"

Exactly in the same way an Abrams would do.You fire it.
Even if theoretically possible, you do not unload a "wrong" round in the middle of a battle in any other way.Too dangerous and time consuming.Even with an human loader the procedure is fire and reload, if I have undestood correctly.

"The info on Russian auto loader equiped tanks ROF is optomistic at best."

Do not underestimate Vasily, that would be a big mistake...
Ten seconds is basically the worst case scenario for the slowest autoloader type, mounted on the T-72.The one mounted on the T-90 can cycle faster, the T-80 is faster still and the latest bustle autoloader is even faster.
So it depends on what specific tank you are speaking about,the loading plan and the mode of operation.You can go from 10 seconds down to probably 3-4 depending on all the above variables. The issue is a bit more complicated than "ruskies SUCK!!!!!!".You should read more about it, it is rather interesting...

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I may be wrong to a point about the ROF issue. But they did change the accuracy of the 120mm main gun in the US OOB. Maybe in some cases more than it should be. Especially the early 120mm guns. This is a hard nut to crack so I have to give them credit. (designers/modders)
The accuracy of the US 120mm smooth bore tank gun has more to do with the ammo than the gun. This is why I suggested that the accuracy rating evolve. They chose to make all 120mm US tank guns have the same accuracy. I would have started at an accuracy rating of 11 or 12 for the first 120mm and moved up to 15 by 2007. Now they are all rated at 14. This seems to me to be a shotgun approach.
Said enough. I like the patch. Play the game, it's fun!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I agree with the comments wrt the penetrator L/D's but to take only those into account would be a similar issue to taking only Barrel length... both are a factor as is manufacture

Rather than taking to account one factor perhaps a couple of multipliers or an weighted average of penetrator l/d Barrel length..

Just a thought.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Thats true, but there isnt a modifier for technological advancement. On paper, is soviet 125mm gun impressive (L48-50,1700-1800m/s muzzle speed...),but in reality it dont count. First gen soviet APFSDS were very unaccurate.Round of choice was HEAT,becouse it was more accurate and destructive. Western APDS rounds were more accurate than first and second gen. West APFSDS (M735,M111,M774...) I saw somewhere on Tanknet some data, where M60A3 in 1980 firing APDS was more accurate than M1A1 with M827 or Merkava Mk1 firing M111 (87% at 2000m M728, 84% M827 and 73% M111,but M111 accuracy is combat value from "1982 Peace for Galilee",accuracy during tests is always better) So for accurate accuracy :-) formula you need count with much more variables,but many of them are not public domain. (speed loss of projectile at distance,dispersion,quality of discarding sabot etc...)