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-   Dominions 3: The Awakening (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=138)
-   -   Paralysis is overpowered. (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40367)

HoneyBadger August 27th, 2008 01:46 AM
Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 
And some creatures-void critters, R'lyeh starspawn, Aboleths, etc. might have a natural resistance against such effects-not immunity, but maybe as much as 50%

Along that line of thought, Heroically Stupid heroes might get an increasing resistance, just for being thick-headed and unimaginative. :)

K August 27th, 2008 02:02 AM
Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTJedi (Post 634422)
Quote:
Originally Posted by K (Post 634414)

NTJedi wants successful saves to shave 2-10 rounds off per additional MR saves, which for a high MR unit means no Paralyze is lasting more than 10 turns in effect.
It's inaccurate to say no Paralyze will last more than 10 turns considering no actual formula for removal of 2-10 rounds has been discussed. If the developers were even remotely interested in adjusting paralysis I'd provide an example formula, but I doubt any change will occur for paralysis, allowing the spell to be more realistic.


Please check my previous post.
After checking your previous post, here is the exact thing you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTJedi (Post 634422)
I think paralysis should allow those paralyzed to have another MR roll each turn, if they succeed the MR roll then an extra 2 to 10 turns of paralysis are removed. Those with strong MR should overcome the paralysis more quickly since battle turns are so limited.
Now, base on simple statistics a high MR unit will make the next ten rolls against Paralysis if he failed once based on the 0.7 chance of failing a save for a MR 25 unit and a base path(as konming has shown, so ask him about the math). I assumed that even with a 60-turn Paralysis, this means an average of 6 turns([2+10]/2) per successful save is shaved off, meaning at the very outside you'd get 10 turns of Paralysis. Yes, I did make a guess that the 2-10 would be evenly distributed, but I think that it's a fair assumption (If the average is lower than 6 then the Paralysis is longer, and if the average is higher than 6 then it is shorter).

So yes, there was actual math at work there based on your suggestion with a little reasonable guesswork and not me misinterpreting what you said for my own purposes.

K August 27th, 2008 02:11 AM
Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTJedi (Post 634413)
Quote:
Originally Posted by K (Post 634346)

Basically, asking to reduce the duration is the same as asking to have the spell removed from the game. Considering that a reduced duration of any kind makes it less useful for killing Blessed troops and other powerful units, the only question is "how many strategies are the pro-SC crowd willing to ruin?"
Well first let me say I've been here a long long time and I seriously doubt the developers will make any changes to the current paralyze spell in DOM_3... so you can sleep safely.

Second the reduced duration I mentioned is for addressing two issues, none which have been discussed. The first is because current battle turns have an auto-retreat and an auto-kill too early which conflicts with the duration of battles in history. The auto-kill and auto-retreat were done to prevent a game turn from taking too long, unfortunately despite computers advancing and becoming more powerful the gamers currently have no options for increasing these auto-kill and auto-retreat settings. The paralyze spell basically makes a unit, mage or SC completely worthless for the usually the rest of the battle and if the target is struck with paralyze twice then the unit, mage or SC can be killed not by units but because of a game mechanic due to the auto-kill game turn limit... illogical. The second reason for the suggested reduced duration is because the game links magic resistance and the minds mental strength... hence spells like iron will. The second reason is because it seems only logical a creature of a strong mind(magic_resistance) should be able to break free much more quickly from a mind spell like paralysis compared to say an average militia unit. It's actually baffling to me why size even plays any part for reducing paralysis considering the huge size and seriously low intellect of most dinosaurs.
Logic vs. magic or abstraction means that magic/abstraction always wins. I could seriously come up with ten different reasons why the turn limit for battles exists based or why Paralyze works the way it does based on real-world examples OR magical reasons based on Dominion's system of magic, so any argument based on "but it doesn't make sense to me" doesn't survive.

This is fantasy, so even bad reasons can be logical.

JimMorrison August 27th, 2008 02:12 AM
Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endoperez (Post 634427)
That's actually somewhat viable. I don't think we'll get it, but a cursed item that made you immune to mind burns, soul slays and charms would be quite useful.

Sweet! We could call it a Slave Collar..... ;)

Well, I guess it needs Paralyze added to it, and then you're looking at something useful! I mean, why give that Bane Lord a ton of MR gear, when a simple Slave Collar will render him into a calm, focused, minister of death? :o


Oh and for the record, I don't think my suggestion to change Paralyze was all THAT drastic. Only the Paralyze spell would be reduced to either 30+ or 40+, since most people agree that simply with the hardcoded battle length, 60+ is a bit gratuitious.

Size accounted for, a 15 turn Paralysis still gives you a lot of chance to lay down some hurt. If you can't kill it in that time, perhaps you need to bring something MORE to the table than just Paralyze?

K August 27th, 2008 02:15 AM
Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMorrison (Post 634447)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endoperez (Post 634427)
That's actually somewhat viable. I don't think we'll get it, but a cursed item that made you immune to mind burns, soul slays and charms would be quite useful.

Sweet! We could call it a Slave Collar..... ;)

Well, I guess it needs Paralyze added to it, and then you're looking at something useful! I mean, why give that Bane Lord a ton of MR gear, when a simple Slave Collar will render him into a calm, focused, minister of death? :o
I'd actually accept if the Feebleminded condition gave you the Mindless trait (though I'm not sure if Mindless helps vs. Paralyze).

NTJedi August 27th, 2008 02:25 AM
Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K (Post 634444)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTJedi (Post 634422)
I think paralysis should allow those paralyzed to have another MR roll each turn, if they succeed the MR roll then an extra 2 to 10 turns of paralysis are removed. Those with strong MR should overcome the paralysis more quickly since battle turns are so limited.
Now, base on simple statistics a high MR unit will make the next ten rolls against Paralysis if he failed once based on the 0.7 chance of failing a save for a MR 25 unit and a base path(as konming has shown, so ask him about the math). I assumed that even with a 60-turn Paralysis, this means an average of 6 turns([2+10]/2) per successful save is shaved off, meaning at the very outside you'd get 10 turns of Paralysis. Yes, I did make a guess that the 2-10 would be evenly distributed, but I think that it's a fair assumption (If the average is lower than 6 then the Paralysis is longer, and if the average is higher than 6 then it is shorter).

So yes, there was actual math at work there based on your suggestion with a little reasonable guesswork and not me misinterpreting what you said for my own purposes.
Okay first mistake you made was assuming these MR rolls which will remove turns will be using the same formula as the one which actually strikes the creature/being with paralysis.

As I wrote earlier there is no current formula, please don't make guesses.

HoneyBadger August 27th, 2008 02:31 AM
Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 
Yeah, I don't think Slave Collar works that way, does it? I was always under the impression it was curse + feeblemind + 30 morale. And that was it.

Something like a forgeable (in the sense that Lifelong Protection is forgeable) Void-based brain parasite that made you immune to mind burns, soul slays and charms, but also horror-marked you, would be fun, and thematic, and horribly, mind-numbingly creepy (always a plus!).

Maybe it would have a very small chance per turn-like the lycanthropy amulet-of giving your unit the Mindless tag (by turning your unit into a Soulless-because the parasite living off your unit's brain is, well, full.)-but once you got it, if your unit gets killed, he/she turns into a Lesser Horror (as a secondform) and attacks the nearest unit.

NTJedi August 27th, 2008 02:36 AM
[quote=K;634446][quote=NTJedi;634413]
Quote:
Originally Posted by K (Post 634346)

Logic vs. magic or abstraction means that magic/abstraction always wins. I could seriously come up with ten different reasons why the turn limit for battles exists based or why Paralyze works the way it does based on real-world examples OR magical reasons based on Dominion's system of magic, so any argument based on "but it doesn't make sense to me" doesn't survive.

This is fantasy, so even bad reasons can be logical.
The turn limit on battles has already been discussed in the forums and based on several variables each battle is clearly one day at the most. Ideally this should be improved to be more realistic.

The paralyze spell is a mind targeting spell which is temporary, although long effect. Since it strikes the mind the creatures with more powerful and more developed minds shouldn't suffer the exact same duration as one with a weak mind.

Your last statement of "This is fantasy, so even bad reasons can be logical" is clear you don't care to hold or create a stronger realistic fantasy. Also your posts show you have a tunnel vision view on paralysis.

K August 27th, 2008 02:37 AM
Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTJedi (Post 634455)
Quote:
Originally Posted by K (Post 634444)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTJedi (Post 634422)
I think paralysis should allow those paralyzed to have another MR roll each turn, if they succeed the MR roll then an extra 2 to 10 turns of paralysis are removed. Those with strong MR should overcome the paralysis more quickly since battle turns are so limited.
Now, base on simple statistics a high MR unit will make the next ten rolls against Paralysis if he failed once based on the 0.7 chance of failing a save for a MR 25 unit and a base path(as konming has shown, so ask him about the math). I assumed that even with a 60-turn Paralysis, this means an average of 6 turns([2+10]/2) per successful save is shaved off, meaning at the very outside you'd get 10 turns of Paralysis. Yes, I did make a guess that the 2-10 would be evenly distributed, but I think that it's a fair assumption (If the average is lower than 6 then the Paralysis is longer, and if the average is higher than 6 then it is shorter).

So yes, there was actual math at work there based on your suggestion with a little reasonable guesswork and not me misinterpreting what you said for my own purposes.
Okay first mistake you made was assuming these MR rolls which will remove turns will be using the same formula as the one which actually strikes the creature/being with paralysis.

As I wrote earlier there is no current formula, please don't make guesses.
Considering that there are only two kinds of MR rolls in the game(MR and MR+), I assumed the one most favorable to you(MR).

So yes, you got me. I did not take into account the possibility that you'd ask the designers to redesign the whole game just to make a third kind of MR roll for that one spell so that your proposed model might be reasonable in any way. ;)

NTJedi August 27th, 2008 02:40 AM
Re: Paralysis is overpowered.
 
[quote=K;634460][quote=NTJedi;634455]
Quote:
Originally Posted by K (Post 634444)

So yes, you got me. I did not take into account the possibility that you'd ask the designers to redesign the whole game just to make a third kind of MR roll for that one spell so that your proposed model might be reasonable in any way. ;)
Redesign the whole game ?? Just because a current formula doesn't exist doesn't mean the entire game needs to be redesigned to add one... that is unless you already know all the code the developers use and they will verify your statement.

You must be getting sleepy.


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