.com.unity Forums - Niefelheim - Who’s afraid of the big bad wolf?

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Originally Posted by HoneyBadger (Post 665649)

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Originally Posted by alansmithee (Post 665646)

As I am assuming I'm considered part of the "snarky peanut gallery", please show where in your original post in the thread you had any of the same ideas outside of "use skrattis". I really see this as some odd personal attack, and a largely baseless one at that.

1: Correct

2: I made several clear examples, aside from presenting the original posts, in their entirety.

3: The reason is that you don't bother to even half-read the posts that you spend so very much time and energy criticising.

Atleast I bothered to read Baalz's post before replying to it.

Well, it seems that anyone lacking 1k posts is someone from the "snarky peanut gallery". However, with the elitism that you are showing, it's really no wonder more people don't post. And as for your examples, I pointed out before that there was almost no similarity between what you posted and you think Baalz's guide is about because based on what you think he copied, you either didn't really read it or didn't understand what he wrote. I'll leave it up to you to say which is the case. And I did read your post, but just so you understand that I read your post, I've taken the time to go over it in more detail.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBadger (Post 664648)

Just to give one example, here's a copy of a post I made in September 30 of last year, suggesting the skratti's usefulness, and other items (including synergy between Niefelheim and undead) Baalz has mentioned:

QUOTE*I was reading through the various strategy guides, and I thought I'd add a few late comments on here, considering the tactics that have been suggested already.

First of all, I always seem to forge lots of copper plate for my Jarls. It's an easy forge for Niefelheim, almost to the point of being a no-brainer. It's not the best armour in the world for them, but it's cheap, and better than what they have--they've got the air gems to spend, and it takes care of lightning threats. So that's another reason that shock attacks aren't always the best choice, unless you can deny them air gems.

You mention using copper plate on Jarls. In the original guide, he mentions copper plate on Skratti (along with 4 other types of armor). Now, I can only assume (since he's talking about a totally different unit) you are taking offense to him using copper plate in a guide without giving due credit. A brief search for "copper plate" shows many posts predating yours recommending copper plate. Are you stealing from them?

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It's a lot harder for Niefel to defend itself against fire, than it is lightning, *IF* you're not using Niefel recruits as your main force. The best thing you can do is spam Lightning AND Fire. Even then, expect Niefel Pretenders to come with fire magic.

The guide recommends earth, death, and astral on the pretender. No fire. Another miss.

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Secondly, Fear Helmets seem like a good choice for them too-and are-but the death gems you spend now are the death gems you don't spend later on. I honestly think they're a superb item to give your Jarls, because they help a lot to keep your giants from becoming surrounded, and they sync with the Jarls' natural Death magic. One of the best items you can give them, for the money, especially since they have the death gems to spend, but they're expensive! and they're low-level items. So one thing you really want to develope is a death-gem income, because you *need* death gems now, and you need them even *more* in Late Game-where Niefelheim starts to fade.

Denying Neifelheim death-gems hurts them.

Horror helmets never mentioned in the guide. Another miss. He does mention fear, but in combination with (rarely-used) ghosts and Skrattis, not equipped Jarls. Unless you want to take credit for the concept of using fear?

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Niefelheim wants Luck 3. That's, in my opinion, the single most important scale for Niefelheim to max out. Everything else, even Magic, is secondary (you have natural access to the two best research-boosters, skulls and quills). You don't want to build those lovely Niefel recruits, when you can build a Jarl, so Order and Production aren't as important. Not when you can expect 3000 gold atleast once a year (either as a chunk, or in dribs and drabs). You just can't suffer barbarian raids. They'll cut through you like butter, unless you have a decent army in place to compliment your PD.

And that 3000 gold event comes with both a magic item, and lots of fire gems-which is great for a Nation that doesn't otherwise get a lot of fire gems.

He does recommend taking luck-3. Also magic-1 (which you don't mention the amount of magic). However, your justification seems to stem from getting a very rare event (120 points for a rare event seems slightly pushing it) and the avoidance of barbarian raids. He mentions luck as being used for pushing negative dominion. I'll give you half-credit for recommending those scales though.

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Niefelheim PD is worth at best half, at worst a third as much as the PD of almost any other nation-even monkeys!-so you need 1: time to consolidate your forces, and 2: you need your temple and lab to stay in tact until you can purchase atleast 2 more heavily guarded temples and labs. Niefel doesn't care about resources, because while high resource troops are nice, it can always fall back on boulder-throwers and skinshifters, both of which make beautiful PD boosters. And every single PD needs boosters-and needs to be raised up to *atleast* 36, if you expect to hold a province. In SP games, I've been known to literally station a single, kitted out Niefel Jarl, in every single province I own, when using high levels of Misfortune, because barbarian raids are just so devastating. That's extreme, I admit, but it's very expensive for Niefel to hold on to territory. Niefelheim lives and dies on gold income-deny them gold and they're a paper tiger.

Here, you mention using misfortune and stationing Jarls in every province (two things that are against what the guide recommends). And you talk about PD. Outside of the intro, PD is not mentioned in the guide. Another miss (noticing a pattern)?

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Niefelheim, for 200 gold a piece, has a very respectable H2, decent stats, priest. Niefelheim's going to want to build a *lot* of them. Dominion Death is a real risk for Niefelheim, because again, holding territory (and the temples thereon) is hard for them. And with two heavy blesses-Earth and Nature-you aren't guaranteed an awake Pretender with high Dominion. Masses of undead chaff can also be a threat, as mentioned. And while those 200 gold priests are great, they're still 200 gold a pop. Niefelheim is going to want cheaper priests if it can get them, if only for Dominion-maintenance. Deny them cheap priests, destroy their temples whenever possible, and attack their Dominion, even if it's good-force them to maintain it.

Priests never mentioned. Also mention of a heavy bless, which this guide is not advocating. Another miss.

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Starvation's nice, but I've never had a *real* problem with starving Niefels, because I've always managed to forge wineskins and cauldrons with my Gygjas-and it's really easy to stick one of each on their high movement, holy, stealthy, tough scouts, and ship them out wherever needed--and easier, once you can give the scouts winged boots. I *love* Niefel scouts, by the way. If you can ever figure out a way to make a bunch of them, like 25, they make beautiful raiders-raiders that can carry around cauldrons/wineskins, or maybe a skellspam amulet and a bottle of water (water elementals are tougher when they're frozen)-Equipped, they can support your outlying provinces all by themselves, and your Skratti can follow, supporting them with spells.

Deny them Nature gems, and you're not only denying them food items, you're denying them healing, and one of the best spells for Niefelheim-perhaps the best global-Gift of Health, which not only heals them, it gives them even more HP.

Scouts not mentioned, supply items not mentioned, and Skratti suggested as spell support, as opposed to thugs/SC's. He does say that Gift of Health is good however, but it's clearly not a focus. Ring up another miss.

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Niefelheim doesn't have good access to healing-the best it can manage, bar Globals, is Fairy Queen. Curse the crap out of their commanders, their units, their pets, the rats in their cellars, whatever they have, whenever you can. Horror-mark is ok too, but not as nice, because a Niefel Jarl can take out a lesser Horror very consistently, unless you catch them early (without a magic weapon), and are lucky. A well-equipped Niefel Jarl can even give a Doom Horror several afflictions, before it's taken out, so horror marks aren't the best tactic to use against them. So skip horror marking, unless you can *really* spam it, and always focus on Curse, Curse, and more Curse. Afflict them, and deny them healing, whenever you can. A severely afflicted giant is actually better than a dead giant-because it's still drawing a paycheck. Disease is nice enough, but *always* expect a regeneration bless. Once Niefel breaks into healing, it really becomes a powerhouse.

Outside of Gift of Health, healing not mentioned (and also you focus on Jarls, which the guide does not). Miss.

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When considering Darkness as a counter to Niefel, don't be surprised with Niefel starts building it's own undead. Breaking into undead is a great tactic for Niefel-cheap skellspam amulets become invaluable, when each one produces an endless stream of human-sized darkness/cold immune chaff units. Fun to stick on non-death mage scouts, and the weakest Jotun commanders (which are still both Sacred). And while Niefel might not have many good paths to the water, they do have the Wyrm Pretender, and they have *plenty* of water magic to use when they get there, so undead can help there too. Banes are my favorite, because you not only get a tough, powerful undead unit, you get a tough, powerful undead unit with a vicious magic weapon, which solves problems like Etherial units, and any lingering horrormark problems, and deals out painful, lingering death.

UD spam or darkness aren't mentioned (outside of using the pretender) and the Wyrm pretender option not mentioned. Miss. He does mention underwater expansion, but using Skratti and water-breathing items.

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So again, deny Niefelheim death gems, prepair for undead, and deny them a foothold in the water-because once they get there, they can start spamming sea serpents and krakens (tons of them-water gems aren't otherwise all that useful to Niefelheim, compared to most of the other gems, and they get lots), recruiting chaff, and all the rest. And they can *easily* forge both water and air breathing items, so they can put critters *in* the pool, and take them *out* of the pool, pretty much at will.

Underwater summons aren't mentioned, but I'll give you half-credit for him also mentioning water-breathing items (although you should now credit everyone who has mentioned water-breathing items too, in keeping with your humility policy).

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Three units are particularly ignored as Niefel powerhouses, and particularly nasty, because they're ignored, and because they mesh well with seldom taken Blesses that Niefel has access to:

The first is the aforementioned non-capital sacred Scout. Scouts are stealthy, no surprises there. But they're also sacred, with all the fun that entails. And while weak compared to most Jotun commanders, they're still Jotuns, which makes them ridiculously better than the average human. Another nice feature is that they've got javelins. Slap a shield on them, and an eye of precision, and those javelins are mean!
They're so mean infact that a Death bless isn't entirely out of the question, since with the damage they dish out, you're pretty much ensuring an Affliction with every single javelin. These guys are straight up your best option, if you want to take a Niefel Pretender (ironically, not a common choice), because they mesh the best with a Death+Water Bless. You still want Nature, though, and since these guys aren't casters, Berserk is a great option if you want to spend the points for it. You can go with Horror Helmets for these guys, or better yet, Horned Helmet, if you've got a high Water bless going, that you can take advantage of. And the spears, while actually not that bad, can be traded out for swords of swiftness. Scouts should carry around food items, and either a skellyspam amulet, or a bottle of water-waterbottle Scouts should be equipped with Rime Hauberks whenever possible, so you can freeze the water elementals they produce, immediately. And Skratti can follow scouts, and spam Quickness.

2-the Niefel Priests (I forget their name). Not as good as a Niefel Jarl, or even a Jotun Jarl, out of the box, they're still Sacred, have better stats than a scout, and they're still Holy 2. If I expected undead units, or lightning attacks, I'd be thinking "hey, what if I took a high Air bless?". They lack shields, but with an Air bless (and they're self-blessing), who needs a shield? And shock's no longer a big deal, when you're 75% resistant to it. And these guys are non-Capital, so build to your heart's content! You can decimate any undead you encounter with them, Dominion's no longer a problem, because you're not concentrating on Niefels anymore, and while they might not be "as good as a Niefel Jarl" in combat, they're still pretty damn good, right out of the box, with an air bless-and you're building 10 of them to every 4 Niefel Jarls. With those numbers, they're arguably better than Niefels, if you want to concentrate on non-Niefel units, like skin-shifters, since they can spam Sermon of Courage. These guys are great, if you want to go with a Titan Pretender. High Earth/Air Bless is beautiful for these guys. Expect to forge helmets for them, though. And since you don't need a shield, you can consider 2 frost brands-cheap and easy for Niefelheim. Rime Hauberk is another nice option. It's cheap, and it gives them the cold aura they lack, in combination with decent Prot. High Air bless also makes your Niefel recruits a lot more palatable, in that they're now going to shrug off cold *and* lightning, which more or less neuthers Caelum against them, and all those fancy missle-tactics that everyone has so painstakingly crafted to work against you, aren't working so well, anymore.

But the *BEST*, most wonderful, glorious, all-round good thing about high Air+Earth bless is that your Pretender can now summon the ultimate PD booster-Watchers.

Watch closely as a half dozen cheap Watchers turn Niefel PD from grungy to great in seconds!

None of this is mentioned. Two big misses.

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The third, and best, unit is the Skratti. I loooooove Skratti. They're good researchers, they've got access to multiple paths, they're your key to a blood economy, they can shapeshift into not one but two extremely useful forms, including a stealthy wolf, and they're fast-not just Jotun fast either, they're one of the fastest units in the entire *game*. Have them cast Quickness and the Chill Aura spell (they can do that by themselves), and give them two Swords of Swiftness, a horned helmet, and an amulet of reinvigoration, in their were-jotun form, and they're basically quisinarts of death, with 4 sword attacks, a bite, and a gore attack, all at Jotun strength, times whatever Quickness gives them, plus the same cold aura that the Niefels are always bragging about. And they've still got armour, boots (*flying* quisinart of death, anyone?), and 1 misc slot to fill. At 250 gold a pop, properly equipped, they might actually be *better* for the money than a Jarl, considering that Jarls need Earth/Nature blesses to come into their own, and Skrattis aren't even sacred. On top of all that, they're a stealthy caster-be careful with that last, though, Skrattis in wolf form drop most of their equipment. Again-provided you can find a way to forge Shrouds-a good unit for taking advantage of Death+Water, with Nature bless optional, since they're even better as melee fighters than they are as mages. Air + Earth won't hurt them, either, since they'll otherwise be vulnerable to missles, shrouds only offer 8 Prot, and they need all the Reinvigoration they can get. IIRC they get natural Regeneration, too. If so, and if you *can* Shroud them, they don't even need a Nature bless. With their extreme versatility, and furious speed, Skrattis are, hands down, a better choice for Prophet than a Niefel Jarl.

Maybe this is what you were talking about? It could be, but you recommend using Skrattis totally differently from this guide. And you're still focusing on a bless for the nation (and shrouds to back it up).

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That's just one example. Here's another, written in October 16th of last year, that goes into more depth about skrattis, specifically in wolf form, and pairing them with undead and Gygjas:

QUOTE* I was going to add this to the "Low cost tactics", but it's pretty expensive, especially for Niefelheim. Fun to pull off, though, and it gives Niefel Hags better synchronicity with the Skratti:

Niefelheim's known for a lot of things, but most of those things are huge, straightforward, and obvious. One thing they aren't known for is Nature magic, except as a path to a decent bless.

Another thing they aren't known for-being huge, lumbering giants-is being particularly stealthy.

But Niefelheim does have 1 National summons-Pack of Wolves, which is Conj3/N2, costing 25 gems for 20 reasonably tough wolves. Not cheap, but fine damage-soakers, with Forest and Mountain survival, and stealth. They're also extremely fast on the ground, at Move 28, meaning archers aren't going to get much chance at them. Not as good as flying, but not subject to stormy weather, either.
To these can be added the following units, which Niefelheim has easy access to, and which don't require venturing further than 4 levels into any magic path:

Bind Fiend-1xfiend of darkness, 5 blood slaves. Fiends of darkness are Imps' bigger, older brothers-older brothers who like to shoot steroid-pcp cocktails into their eyeballs and then mug bengal tigers at the zoo. They fly right out of the box, which keeps the enemy's mages occupied-by-means-of-evisceration, and they've got x2 poison claw attacks, which makes things more interesting for mages who only thought they'd be dealing with the cold, and maybe lightning.

Black Servant-1xblack servant, 5 death gems. Always a good unit to have access to, and a commander. They'll eat up your death gems, though, which is a problem for Niefelheim. Still, it's a great opportunity to add a few thugs with bows to your stealthy forces-but once you've got access to storm bows, give them to your scouts. They're also good out of the box, with etherial + lifedrain, and 18(!) hit-points.

Summon Shades-3xshades, 5 death gems. Expensive for what you get, but etherial, with most of the advantages of a shade beast. Shade beasts are far better, though, so wait for them if you can afford to. They do have a slight niche use as arrow soakers, since they're slower than shade beasts, and their etherialness should keep them safe from most arrows for a long time. Not really worth it though, in most cases.

Summon Shade Beasts-15xshade beasts, 20 death gems. Requires Conj 4, but probably Niefel's best all-around option. Your etherial, cold resistant Shade Beasts are fast, and amphibious, which means they can follow your Niefel Giants anywhere, if you need to team them up, and you don't have to worry about killing them with a cold-aura booster, with skratti. These guys aren't as fast as your wolves, but next to Fiends of Darkness, they're your fastest choice.

Spirits of the Wood-5xhama dryads-the most expensive option, in terms of research and path availability, but the gem cost isn't exhorbitant, and they're etherial units with natural regeneration, recuperation, and poison resistance 100%. Definitely worth the price, as a niche unit, and far better than shades. Note: They're not terribly fast, either in combat, or on the move, and I'm pretty sure they'll eventually die, if you lead them away from where they're summoned, but with some stealthy allies, they make great seige-crashers to keep around your Capital, or other major strongpoints, to get the drop on poison-using foes. They lack cold resistance, though, so keep that in mind-combines well with undead/dire wolves, and their Steal Strength weapon will take the punch out of giant-killing SCs.

These all come with Stealth, meaning not only can your Skrattis (in wolf form) lead them, you can also bring along some Scouts-which, if you're using a Prophetized Skratti to lead them, gives you instant, all-access Bless, and buffs, like Quickness and Sermon of Courage.

And later on, you can trick your stealthy units out with powerful mages and SCs like Wraith Lords, Harvester of Sorrows, Kokythiads, and Spectral Mages.

Again, it's not the cheapest way to go, or the easiest, but being able to field a few very mobile, stealthy, and quite powerful bands of bushwhackers can give Niefel's enemies a fatal surprise that they never saw coming.*ENDQUOTE

Even the style of writing isn't all *that* different.

None of this is mentioned in the guide. NONE OF IT. The summon he does mention you ignore.

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And that's just examples from things I've written. Using skinshifters over Niefel Jarls is even mentioned in the manual! Forged items for Niefelheim have been discussed, argued about, mulled over, and pounded into the ground since approximately an hour after the release of the Dom3 demo.

Blood Hunting for Niefelheim is obvious, and a standard feature for them. It's not a new tactic, it's just something they're intended to have the capacity for. Pushing malignant dominions is another "old hat" idea. Bloodthorns on giants are nice, but I suspect people have been doing that since atleast Dom2, and that it's only fallen out of favor since the Lifedrain nerf.

Well, there were posters who mentioned using blood thorns on giants as a new idea. And blood hunting is a standard feature for ANY blood nation. Making a guide WITHOUT mentioning it would be unreasonable. And dominion push isn't a new idea, but I could see that as being a weaker portion of the guide, since there's really no method given for actively pushing your dominion as a part of the overall strategy.

So you see, you really had no basis for your attack. And playing the martyr really doesn't help your "case", whatever that case is trying to be. I know you will probably dismiss this as more <1000 post snarkiness, but I hope you actually do look and see how no logical person could really take what you wrote as having anything but the barest similarity to the guide. And I do hope that your attitude isn't prevalent on the boards, or I would assume that there will be fewer and fewer people reaching the hallowed 1000 post mark necessary for you to notice.