Re: Colony Types
 

Thanks for the info on migration Raapys. But am I the only one to be suprised that all of a sudden all of 181M immigrants can come onto my planet? It would be OK if for instance 5% can arrive and/or 5% could leave, but 181M/500M in one month? It is bordering on an exploit, only it happens without me doing anything.

Besides I don't see how "the two empires' population can become equal", if I suck up 180M people per turn per planet from him, depending on the calculation I will either bleed him dry or immigration will stop once his population drops down to a certain threshold (and I always had more than him IIRC since we signed the treaty).

Re: Colony Types
 

Migration works sort of like osmosis. Planets with high populations will flow into lower populated planets. The amount per turn will be affected by the difference in population...

Re: Colony Types
 

It also only flows towards breathable planets (for the migrating population).

Re: Colony Types
 

It would be nice if domestic migration would end up eliminating micro-management of "breather-swapping". I still have to do quite a bit of it and it ties up my transports. If anything, domestic migration should be higher than international migration, which needs to be much lower. In other words, races migrating across empires should use 10% the rate they are now, while domestic migration within an empire should use the current rate.

I also think it would be interesting if migration had the effect of giving a bonus to intel targeting the other party (while giving them the same bonus towards you), so that it wouldn't be something you'd do with someone you didn't quite trust, but it would be great for allies who can trust each other (since it would also effect cooperative intel).

Re: Colony Types
 

Maybe migration between empires should depend on population loyalty, or does it work like that already?
Or happines could be a factor, with people migrating towards places with higher happines.

But I'm getting of topic here since these would be hardcode changes I believe. Anyhow great mod Kwok!

Re: Colony Types
 

Randomness seems to be best in this case. Some people like living in strange places. Some people don't care much about thier living environment and will choose to live where it's cheaper. When you throw in different species of people, it just gets more random. That said, there should at least be some basic generalizations used. For instance, there are some things everyone wants equally, so it makes sense that people would migrate toward planets where they can breathe outside, and migrate away from planets where they can't.

As for happiness, i'd say that would be a minor factor when compared to loyalty. People should only migrate on the basis of loyalty when they are loyal to another empire. If they are displeased or have low loyalty to thier current empire, but aren't loyal to any other empire, then they should stay put. When they do migrate, they should migrate to the empire that they are loyal to, not just to some random empire under the treaty. In some cases, it is concievable that loyalty could cause outright abandonment of planets, but in these cases it would behoove the empire in question to seriously consider thier migration treaties. This will dissuade players from starting up migration treaties willy-nilly.

Also, planet conditions should have an effect, but shouldn't cause migration away from the planet. Conditions should put a cap on incoming migration instead, since planets with poor conditions would be considered "low-income housing", which is a neccessary evil in any civilization. Basically, low-income housing exists because some people just can't live anywhere else, but they still need a place to live.

In all other cases, it should be random.

Re: Colony Types
 

neofit's experience contradicts SJ's stated policy. Can anyone confirm one way or the other?

Re: Colony Types
 

Getting back on topic:

I'm hoping to release v0.97 tomorrow. It's mostly tweaks in terms of data file changes, but it will add about a half-dozen new colony types for the AI. The new types described mixed-use colonies (ie Mineral & Farming Colony or Research & Intel Compound etc.) to help the AI use it's planets better. This change also allowed me to further refine selection criteria for the colony types. The last step will be refine the selection process by whether or not a planet is breathable...

---

Not sure about the reproduction/migration item mentioned by Neofit - but I'll try out that scenario and see if there is a bug present.

Re: Colony Types
 

CK, you've done a great job with this mod but.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I think you've missed a minor balance issue, ship slots. The number of ship slots varies wildly from race to race. Take the frigate for example, the number of slots ranges from a low of 20 to a high of 44. Now granted, most ship designs don't use all of their slots (I did say it was a minor issue http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) but it can be frustrating for a human player to have to change hull levels to design the exact same ship that fit everything on the same level with a different race.

A bit esoteric but, just a thought.

Re: Colony Types
 

Captain

How far are you away from releasing 0.97, im ready to start a game and but dont want to start with .96 then ditch again in a day or 2 to start a .97.

Keep up the excellant work on this mod... tremendous.

Drew

Re: Colony Types
 

I'm still crunching away on v0.97 - it might be available tonight but more likely tomorrow so I can run a few tests.

Besides the colony type adjustments as described a few posts ago, I've also continued to improve the variety of AI designs. Some of the things I'm working on in that respect are:

- Specifying certain design types to use/build based on Empire's character - such as kamikaze ships for aggressive races (Done)
- AI will use multiple armor types (Done)
- Improve unit designs (Mostly Done)
- Restrict certain components to combat ships (To do)
- Ordnance storage added only for ships with ordnance weapons (To do, not likely for v97)

After this version I'll probably jump to v1.00 to go with patch 3 for SE:V (due out ca. Nov 20th) so I can add a few new items and stuff of that sort - so it will be a savegame buster. I'm also aiming to give the AI a number of treaty packages that will not only match the name of the treaty, but will actually be useful for the player and AI... it already does something similar for AI team mode so I hope it won't be too difficult.

---

Shinigami: I doubt I will mess around with the default slot layouts unless it becomes an issue of not enough slots for a given design

Re: Colony Types
 

Any word from Aaron about improvements in the turn processing times? Even with the Balance mod tweaks I'm finding the waiting to be too long to keep the game enjoyable.

Re: Balance Mod
 

I haven't much opportunity to play 1.14, but it does have the main fix required to speed up processing times, which is to clear the attack order after combat. That was the main cause of the excessive delay. There are also current processing hanging bugs in AI Alliance voting and also with cargo/population drop offs and the AI. Waiting on 1.15 to see what's been addressed.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Since you are talking about bugs I wrote Aaron Monday in regards to the generational components. I haven’t heard back from him has he said anything to the testers about this getting fixed? I can’t complete my mod until something is done to resolve this issue. Could you please check on it for me?

Re: Balance Mod
 

I'm hoping 1.15 has some more substantial fixes, since the delay between versions has been relatively high..

Re: Next Update
 

It looks you'll have to wait until tomorrow night for the update...

It looks like I'll have to change the way the design script adds extra components rather than it being just a simple list with the possibility of restricting it to just a single design type. I'll probably end up making up lists of components to add for a variety of design type groups - such as "Combat Ships" or "Support Ships" or "Defense Bases" and so on.

Re: Balance Mod Designs
 

I've got the design script working along the lines that I described in my previous post and even added a few extra things as well. I devised a system where I consider 3 factors for a component and whether it should be added or not. One factor is the design type, the second is the role of the ship (ie combat) and the third factor is the vehicle type (ship, base, etc).

I need to make a couple more tweaks and do a 50-turn AI test before I'll post v97!

Re: Balance Mod Designs
 

!!!

Re: Balance Mod Update
 

Greetings.

Version 0.97 of the Balance Mod has been posted. This update focused on improving AI designs and adding mixed-use colony types for them. There were a few adjustments to free up space on some ship types.

Although this version is compatible with previously saved games - I recommend starting a new game with v0.97.

Balance Mod Webpage:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 0.97 (17 November 2006)
-------------------------------

1. Changed - Tech level requirements for Point-Defense Blaster and Point-Defense Beam
2. Fixed - Corrected error in Engines Per Move amount for Light Cruisers
3. Changed - Increased ability amount for Afterburners
4. Changed - A few minor tweaks to system types
5. Changed - Reduced crew requirements for most ship types
6. Fixed - Vehicle placement type typo in Stealth and Scattering Armor
7. Changed - Reduced Phased-Shield Generators to 30kT
8. Added - New design types for Drones
9. Added - New mixed-use colony types for the AI
10. Changed - More tweaking of AI colony type selection
11. Changed - Continued optimization of AI research selections
12. Changed - Continued optimization of AI design types
13. Updated - AI Scripts
</pre><hr />

Re: Balance Mod Update
 

I just started a new game in 0.97, and I can't seem to design weapon platforms. The weapon platform computer core component seems to be broken. If I add one, it's not recognized as such: the game still says I should add a computer core, and I can't complete the design because of this warning.

I started in quite an interesting location with the phong and terrans occupying my neighbouring systems (medium bonus) I have nowhere to expand, and it seems like I'll be at war with both of them in a couple of turns.. Time to look at some other defense strategy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Re: Balance Mod Update
 

If you do a find and replace for all "Weapons Platform" entries with "Weapon Platform" in VehicleSizes.txt you should fix the problem.

In one of my AI test games, the Phongs and Terrans started close to each other and spent 50 turns blowing up each other's colonies...

Re: Balance Mod Update
 

Are you going to add those default empires emp files?

Re: Balance Mod AI Treaties
 

Greetings!

I'm currently building the script for the new treaty system that the AI will use in the Balance Mod. So far I've identified the types of treaty packages the AI might offer and most of the conditions that might by included in the proposals.

If it chooses to propose a treaty, the AI will consider it's anger level towards the other player along with modifiers from the type of AI it is (aggressive, neutral, peaceful), the score difference, and if it is currently in any wars. I may also factor in the game date.

Once the anger level is computed, then a series of conditional statements will choose a corresponding treaty type.

There are a number of treaty "classes" so far that I've outlined - although the actual names are picked from a list of appropriate choices. A number of terms are preset, although some types and/or stipulations will have some randomness.

Partnership:
Requires good relations and features trade, sharing of most items, mutual defense, etc. Only for the best of friends. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Military Alliance:
Similar to partnership, but with sharing focused on military items like share supply or enemy designs plus a few non-military items added by chance.

Mutual Defense:
Only picked if the AI is at war with someone. Terms will be similar to military alliance, but with fewer bonus terms.

Cooperation:
A more random trade agreement with a bit more sharing of non-resource or research items.

Trade &amp; Research:
A trade agreement with some technology exchange.

Trade:
Mostly resource trade and a few other good faith items thrown in randomly such as share resupply or maps etc.

Free Navigation:
A friendlier version of a non-aggression pact

Non-Aggression
A typically early game treaty used to prevent hostilities and form a building block for more constructive treaties if things go positive

Non-Interference:
A highly specific agreement to stay out of each others' space - more likely to be proposed by aggressive races

Protectorate:
A not so mean treaty generally offered by peaceful races to much weaker empires... only small tariffs and some one-sided stipulations

Subjugation:
A meaner treaty offered by more aggressive races to much weaker empires... more severe tariffs and more one-sided conditions

Potential types not quite worked in yet:

Population Exchange:
A concise agreement to exchange population through migration

Technology Exchange:
Like above, but for technology

Re: Balance Mod AI Treaties
 

Will the A.I arrange alliances with other A.I's?

Re: Balance Mod AI Treaties
 

Any ETA on 1.0?

Re: Balance Mod AI Treaties
 

I'll have a v0.98 out tomorrow (maybe tonight) and then I'm going to do a v0.99 with the updated AI treaty system, and if all goes well with that a stable v1.00!

---

I'm not sure if I'll be able to get the AIs to make their own alliances - but they should be able to participate in one somewhat.

Re: Balance Mod AI Treaties
 

Neat. Any problems using 0.97 with 1.17?

Re: Balance Mod AI Treaties
 

Can you address some of the AI's Intel usage (or lack of Intel) in the new release?

From what I can tell the AI doesn't build Intel Centers or use Intel at all.

Re: Balance Mod AI Treaties
 

There's probably an issue with the Shield Regenerator due to a fix in v1.16, but based on the change log for v1.17, I don't foresee any other problems - but let me know if there is a problem.

Re: Balance Mod AI Treaties
 

Looks like there's a rather big one: the game will crash when starting a new game with 0.97. Not sure exactly what the problem is, there's several things going wrong: the exact crash is 'list index out of bounds' or some such.

When I try to edit or create a new empire, I get a message saying 'Could not find Empire Name in Record 1', in the abiddon_AI_main.txt file.

Clicking away that error message reveals that it's not possible to select any ship styles in empire creation, i.e. it's completely blank.

Some change in the way the data files are read?

Re: Balance Mod AI Treaties
 

Oops! I forgot that there was an empire data file addition for each AI in the patch. I've updated in my v0.97 beta copy, but it wasn't in the released v0.97 version for SE:V v1.13!

Oh well I'm at work and can't help you until later. You can fix it yourself though by adding the "Empire Name" field (see a stock [Empire]_Main.txt file for example) to each of your Balance Mod empires.

Re: Balance Mod AI Treaties
 

Neat, thanks.

Re: Balance Mod Update!
 

Greetings!

As promised, I've updated the Balance Mod to v0.98! This fixes the Weapon Platform thing (both for players and the AI) and has the AI using Master Computers on large warships and bases - a bonus for you guys! Next up on the agenda is the AI diplomacy update - which I posted about a few messages ago.

I ran 25 turns in both the beta and retail versions and saw no problems with the update - but let me know if you see otherwise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Balance Mod page:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 0.98 (20 November 2006)
-------------------------------

1. Fixed - Error in Weapon Platform requirements prevented their design
2. Fixed - Error in crew requirement amounts for some ship types
3. Changed - All "Weapons Platform" references should now be "Weapon Platform"
4. Added - Default Override_InvConfiguration_Slots.txt to mod
5. Changed - Shield Regenerator component abilities in response to SE:V v1.17 fix
6. Changed - Increased cost of Mechanoids racial trait to 500 points
7. Fixed - AI was not designing Weapon Platforms
8. Added - AI will now use Master Computers for larger designs if available
9. Added - AI fixes for Alliance politics from SE:V v1.17
10. Updated - AI Empire Scripts
</pre><hr />

Re: Balance Mod Update!
 

I've noted that the scroll rate in combat is painfully slow.
Increasing it by 4x or 5x would be nice.

Re: Balance Mod Update!
 

Something went wrong with this treaty offer...

Supposedly a trade and research pact, but there is no trade or research involved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Balance Mod Update!
 

I thought the Balance Mod additional AI logic for treaties was not in yet, and planned for 0.99? That seems to be the stock behaviour.

Can't wait to get underway with a new game using 1.17 and 0.98!

Re: Balance Mod Update!
 

Yeah, the new treaty scheme is not implemented yet - so it's still using random treaty names.

Re: Balance Mod Update!
 

Small bug. The Organic Large Freighter can currently be brought up to 21 in movement just by filling it with maximum number of Ion engines.

Other 'issues:

Organic/Crystalline races still research both missile and projectile weapons to level 6, and in a few cases a couple of other weapon types up to level 4. This with the Organic/crystal weapon research well on its way. I.e. wasted research points.

AI is still way too slow developing bigger ship sizes. Seeing them flying around with tons of frigates and a few light cruisers at turn 100++ is depressing, especially when many of them have over 50k research points.

Only one out of 5 AIs in my game is dropping satellites/fighters, and that one has only done it at one warp point and 5-10 mixed satellites/fighters.
There's also a code-related problem with the AI not doing other than dumping his fighters/satellites on one side of the warp point, since the AI doesn't bother with moving his units around in sector view. Aaron obviously need to give the AI some sort of ability to place satellites/fighters in a circle around the warp point.

I've also not seen a single mine in the game yet.

In short, though, the AI's performance is still not progressing very well. Perhaps it's fog of war or some such, but something is keeping them from reaching SE4 AI skill and difficulty level. They're simply nowhere near as aggressive as they should be; most of the AI time, even when they're at war, is just spent retrofitting ships and flying between systems, not destroying and conquering other empires like they should be.

Re: Balance Mod Update!
 

Thanks for the report. Can you be more specific on which AIs you are seeing certain behaviors from?

Re: Balance Mod Update!
 

Regarding Mines. I was going to wait on this report. I'm not at home and no pc with the game on it to check this out further. I believe I finished Construction 2? last night, which showed mines as the next available and no mines are available in the design screen. Sorry for the incomplete report but Rappys mentioned it.

Re: Balance Mod Update!
 

There are no bugs with mines, just simply that it's taking the AI some time to get to Construction II and then Mines after that. I really need to go through the AI research pathway and knock out tech areas it doesn't use.

Re: Balance Mod Update!
 

At my current game the turn # is 103

Sergetti Empire, Crystalline race: Has needlessly done 6 levels of Missile and Projectile weapons and 5 levels of normal Armor research even though racial technology is well developed and exclusive on their ships. Has a few warp points protected by groups of satellites no bigger than 5. Main fleet consists of Destroyers, light cruiser researched.

Phong Confederation, Crystalline race: As Sergetti Empire, but no fighters or satellites at warp points. Main fleet consists of Frigates, light cruiser researched.

Cue Cappa, Psychic race: Researched Energy stream, Projectile, and Missile weapons, in addition to the Psychic weapons. Uses APB and Psychic weapons. No satellites or fighters protecting warp points. Using destroyers, no light cruisers researched.

Uktra-Tal, Organic race: Level 9 missile and projectile weapons, Level 6 normal Armor. Using only organic weapons and armor on ships, so the regular weapons and armor research is wasted. Destroyer fleet, light cruiser researched. No satellites/fighters at warp points. Destroyer/frigate fleet, no more than level 2 light cruiser researched even though he has 150k research points( 3 times what the others have).

Xi-Chung, Organic race: Basically the same as the other organics, but this one wasting research points on Energy pulse weapons and High energy discharge weapons in addition to missile and projectile weapons. No warp point defenders. Fleet of frigates/destroyers, light cruiser researched.

Norak, Religious: Slight warp point defense. Frigate fleet, light cruiser researched.

All races are also using shields. While not a bad thing by itself, they're not researching it enough for it to be worth the big amount of space it requires.

No AI is using mines, that I can see.

One might consider having to change the 'Don't get hurt' strategy. The problem with it right now is that if a fleet with non-combat ships are dragged into a long combat, the non-combat ships will pass the retreat border( since they try to put as much distance as possible from them to the enemy), splitting that fleet into two hexes.

Not sure if it's possible to do anything with this, but the AI also ends up with hundreds of outdated units.

The 'Defense Ship' type appears to only carry a missile weapon.

All AIs using Point-Defense Cannon level 1.

That's all I could bring forth in my sleepiness, for now.

Re: Balance Mod AIs
 

Thanks Raapys for the detailed description.

The AI is setup to research 1 tech in each area (cultural, theoretical, applied, weapon), so it goes for normal weapons until it opens up the racial weapon area. In other cases, the racial AIs research some of the normal techs for unit weapons like Rocket Pods. Some times its just on purpose, for example the Cue Cappa are intended to use the APB in addition to its Psychic weapons - its a part of the attempt to differentiate the races.

Early defense ships tend to use missiles until the race opens up other weapon areas. Since defense frigates are small, they are only able to add a single missile, but will a pair of weapons if possible.

I have plans to design a ship scraping minister to get rid of ships/units that are over X age. Not sure on the time frame though.

Re: Balance Mod AIs
 

*sigh*

The lag in Point Defense was due to a typo. Rather than calling for "Point - Defense Weapons" - I had cut and paste "Point-Defense Weapons".

Re: Balance Mod AIs
 

Regarding mines: I have seen AI empires use them in order to protect their colonies (Abbidon as an example).

Re: Balance Mod AIs
 

hI Kwok
Does this mean we have to change a file in the balance mod or do we just wait for your next up date in PD's

Drew

Re: Balance Mod AIs
 

How about moving more of the total research points spent from weapons into applied? Would both help alot with getting the AI to increase ship sizes faster, and prevent him from wasting too much research points in regular weapons that he wont be using. There's obviously something going a bit wrong when the AI end up with Level 6 or 9( that's alot of research points) in regular missiles and weapons, when he's only using racial based ones.

Perhaps remove regular armor and weapons completely from the GlobalResearch file and instead add the desired weapons and armor to each empire's setup file, to ensure they research and use what they should be.

I think tight focus on a specific strategy will be the key to having the AI perform better, instead of having a general 'spread out' strategy for all AIs where they all basically just build the same mix of ships and units and use the same play styles.

I mean, we'd all love if we could get the AI to use all the neat weapons, make perfect fleet combinations with fighters, drones, attack ships, etc., but I really think it has to be easy and relatively straight-forward if we're gonna get anywhere near acceptable performance.

I also think, based on the non-existing ability the AI has to defend itself, that attacking has to be the AIs way of defending. Let's face it; the tiny amount of fighters that the AI keeps to protect his colonies aren't gonna stop any fleet determined to attack it; they need a real fleet for that. And where is that real fleet? It's usually in a system on the other side of the galaxy, flying around doing nothing and leaving their colonies free for the taking, unfortunately.

By the way, could you bring in the latest AI files(0.98) to the page?

Re: Balance Mod AIs
 

Armor and Weapons are not listed in the shared research pool - they are only called by the individual empire scripts. Anyway I dropped the levels of some normal techs used at the beginning by racial AIs to help direct points to racial weapons. In some cases I had called for level 3, but in other cases it was level 6.

Not sure what is going on with the Xi'Chung - they have no references to Energy Pulse weapons. I wonder if it is a by-product of the fact that I stuck 0% for cultural tech for them?

The AI does build some good defense bases - but probably not in sufficient numbers and not always in the right places. I've started to reduce fleet sizes for the AI, so they have more fleets with fewer ships per fleet. It should give them the ability to cover more area. Fleets do not wander aimlessly though, they are set to patrol the frontier warp points most of the time.

---

I'll probably release a v0.99 update today without the revised diplomacy but with a few fixes and updated AI files.

Re: Balance Mod AIs
 

Armor and Weapons are not listed in the shared research pool - they are only called by the individual empire scripts.

In the 0.95 scripts there's definitely references to call 'Armor' in the Script_AI_GlobalResearch.txt file. There's also calls for the racial weapons, although no calls for any other weapons.

You're right, I can't find any references to Energy Pulse weapons in GlobalResearch or the Xichung main script, nor can I find the High-energy discharge weapons which he has also been researching. Perhaps the AI does random research if he runs out of 'calls' in an area before a new age is reached? I'm not entirely sure how the research system works yet though, so I could be way off.

More fleets would be a good move I think; the AI loose a bit by spreading the ships out, but they loose everything by not being there when their colonies are being destroyed.

Shields should probably become a bigger priority; they're just tonnage wasters the first few levels.

Not sure if you've already fixed this for 0.98/99, but in the 0.95 scripts available at your site, the GlobalResearch file is missing the 3. age indicator( 3: ). Instead it goes straight from 2 to 4. Unsure what the exact result of this is, if any.

Re: Balance Mod AIs
 

Script_AI_GlobalResearch.txt is used only for startup tech selection and so in most cases *in theory*, the AI setup files more or less use up most of the available research points and that file doesn't end up being referenced except for figuring out the prerequisites.

Yeah, I caught that age 3: thing a couple of weeks ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif