Re: Peace with Pythium
 

I know there are a few proponents of your way of thinking Hadrian, as evidenced in other threads. But I also know that the majority do not agree with that line of reasoning.

It boils down to this:

You agreed to a nonagression treaty with me,

you attacked me without warning,

you broke the treaty.


Your claim that your attacks are not considered "real" attacks is just rules lawyering to gain an advantage.

Actually our particular example of this debate is illuminating because while a few people other than Hadrian may claim anonymous rituals do not break a nap even though most people say they do.... Hadrian has pushed that reasoning to its extreme conclusion.

He reasons anonymous attacks are not really an attack and so does not just one or two or even ten, but about 50 as a precurser to the "offical" attacks. There is no longer even a pretense of who is doing the attacks, yet the claim is that this does not break a nonagression treaty!!?

It shows where that kind of thinking goes.

XOX

Re: Peace with Pythium
 

Pangaea is a very sneaky nation so playing it in a very sneaky way is almost mandatory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

As xox is the first player complaining about NAP breaches by me, i think naps with me are not that bad. Well, it was the first time i really casted lots of rituals before declaring war and i would not do this if i would not have pangaea, where casting rain of toads as early as possible gives just a very huge benefithttp://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.

A nap for me is no attacks and no un anonymous spells as they are attacks too. Offcourse unanonymous are attacks too but as they cant be linked to a player (as in anonymous) they cant break a nap. If you would make anonymous rituals nap breaking every nap becomes just an useless paper, as as soon an anonymous ritual would be cast on you you would have the right to engage anyone you like.

Lets just say that when i would be the pactbreaking type, there would now be a huge gangbang on ctis going on right now. So my adherence to pacts, i make in dom3 games, will make ctis win in this game.

Another point with a nap is, that punishment for breaking a nap is war. So if you intend to go to war anyway a nap becomes just a fancy peace of paper.

For me a NAP is an early game tool to fix a border with a nation, and non agreement to an early nap means war. The grace period of a nap means that you get preperation time if the other player decides to engage you. (And Jotunheim had that period, as the day the grace period ended a huge jotun army crossed my border.)

In the late game the grace period is worthless, as enemy scouts would notice your army moving to the border anyway so pactbreaking does not give you any benefit.

I also try to play the nations according to the theme and pangaea has a very sneaky theme.

And btw. i did not get any benefit from it, i may have crused jotun, but all lands of jotunheim are now belonging to shin, and i am loosing the war against shinuyama. (shinuyama is still pretending only to fight to help his jotun friends http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif)

please vote in the poll i made in the main forum.

Re: Peace with Pythium
 

There have been books written about that topic. Agartha the Enlighted asked their stone oracle. Hear the words of wisdom:

Casting anonymous rituals is no breach of an nap as long as you're not caught.

So the verdict of Helena is: Pangea broke the NAP with Jotunheim and shall be punished by C'tis for that insolence.

Re: Peace with Pythium
 

C'tis apologizes to our Agarthan overlords. We are drowning our sorrows in lizard beer, following our humiliating defeat at the hands of the wizards of Pythium. We are far too drunk to even think about punishing anyone.

Re: Peace with Pythium
 

The wisdom of the Agarthan oracle is machiavellirrific as usual.

In other words, where Hadrian says "no attack" I say "attack you get away with." Anonymous spells are technically anonymous, which gives you *some* wiggle room. That is, there's a difference between calling an NAP null-and-void because I got seeking arrowed (Arrowed!), and calling my NAP with my only blood magic using neighbor null-and-void after multiple rains of toads. In the former case I don't have reasonable suspicion of that neighbor, in the latter case I do.

Of course if the neighbor claims that the spells weren't his, then it shifts to the court of public opinion. However, the one thing that no one will buy is to say 'yes they were mine, but that's not a breach of the NAP'.

Re: Peace with Pythium
 

Well said Tichy,

And that poll Hadrian has in another thread intentionally muddies the issue.

Hadrian, Just put up a poll that says "does casting anonymous rituals break a nap?"

yes or no?


Casting an attack ritual is aggression whether it is anonymous or not,

The only aspect that the anonymous part brings up is who is the one attacking.

In our case, in the game fallacy, there was no question it was you.

Not saying your a bad person or anything, as i said before don't take this personal. I just said you broke the nap, Breaking a nap is not cheating, perfec;ly legal, might affect you getting other people to trust you in traaties though. I guess that is really what this discussion is about.

But what do you expect Hadrian?!!

You signed a treaty that said you would give me 3 turns warning before you attack and then you hit me with about 50 rain of toads!! 20 before you even started the three turn count down.

Come on, would you yourself trust a nap with another player who does that?

Re: Peace with Pythium
 

Yes, since the leader of the forest beings has stated that they were his toads means it is a break of the NAP.

For me a NAP is worthless if both players do not have honour.

The honourable Bakemono will try to punish the sneaky forest beings for this insolence. However this has not been an easy task.

The giants will be free to grow large again now that the toads are dead.

Re: Peace with Pythium
 

The results of the poss state that

50% of the people think that it breaks the NAP.
15% think the nap is still in place
35% are up for interpretation

I say that it does not break the letter of a nap, as it does not include a direct attack. But if someone would cast anonymous rituals on me, i would break the nap i have with him and attack him.

I will have to see that first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

edit: second poste is from reay and not from xox (copy & pastehttp://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)

Re: Peace with Pythium
 

You are misusing my quote Hadrian. Very deceitful. That is not the results from the poll i suggested and you have interpeted your own 7 choice poll arbitrairly and questionably down to three.

Also Your second quote you attribute to me is actually from Reay, not from me. That would be quite a bold statement if it came from me, I must admit.

Re: Peace with Pythium
 

I dont think there is another possibility to interpret that poll as i did. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

AI
 

C'tis may need to go AI in a few days. I've posted for a sub here but did not get any offers.

Re: AI
 

The AI still might win with all of those tartarians!

Though in the next patch, which comes out in one week, they will have incurable insanity, and I have it from a good source they will do all kinds of mischief! Making them a double edged sword. Should be interesting.

Re: AI
 

I was in an MP game where one of the biggest players went AI at the height of his power. The AI did not win, but it meant a loss for all of it's neighbors. They could not join the fight against Ermor in that game, because the AI nation kept hitting them in the back, and had to be dealt with.

This game would of course be different. I am Ermor in this game, and am small and mostly harmless.

Re: AI
 

I'm sorry I'll have to go AI, but I'll be traveling for over a month, and will not have access to dom3. If any of the neighbors of C'tis knows of someone who's willing to take over C'tis rule, please let me know soon.

Hosting delay please
 

I have a replacement sub coming in, but I'm not sure who it is! Can this turn be delayed an additional 24 hrs, so I can figure out whether DryaUnda or klagrok is taking over, please.

Re: Hosting delay please
 

Sure, I do not mind the 24hr delay.

Is this a temporary sub or is it permanent?

Re: Hosting delay please
 

It is whatever the sub wants. If I'm back in a month or two and the sub no longer wants it, I'll take it back in as-is condition with pleasure.

Update: DryaUnda will be taking over the position of C'tis.

Re: Hosting delay please
 

You have got to hate it when your armies don't move for some reason?

It divided my army in half and let Pangaea defeat my remaining troops and mages.

Perhaps it was accidental but it has never happened to me before. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Hosting delay please
 

Movement bug is very annoying. I find you sometimes have to move the troops to a different province to get them unstuck. I have wasted 3 turns in a row where they would not move before trying to go to the same province.

It is pretty rare, but can be devastatingly when it occurs at a key time.

Re: Hosting delay please
 

I like the new icon Xietor. The Saints. How apropos.

Re: Hosting delay please
 

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Rose.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Rose.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Balloons.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Balloons.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Balloons.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/MusicalNote.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/MusicalNote.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/MusicalNote.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/MusicalNote.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/MusicalNote.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Balloons.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Balloons.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Balloons.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Balloons.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Balloons.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Rose.gif[/img]
Vanheim is defeated. The world is a bit better.

Re: Hosting delay please
 

Pythium has thrown a very large powerful communion based master enslaving army at Tien Chi's former capital and is now besieging Pangaea.

It has 14 Arch Theurgs, 2 Air Queens, 2 Harbingers a Tartarian Cyclops and various troops equipped up to the neck in items.

He has a lot of my poor Bakemono's, now enslaved, fighting for him.

Fortunately my PD/Armies has saved me against the rest of his SC's/Ghost Riders and he only has that one province right now.

If Pythium succeeds in taking some more provinces it will conveniently give him a front right next to C'tis.

I guess it is time for the End Game.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Hosting delay please
 

Pythium can ignore the desperate please for aid no longer and has decided to liberate the besieged capital of Tien Chi from the evil Pangaea forces that are occupying it. While the mighty Shinuyama's demons likely could have done the same, Pythium sees that trade in leadership as not much of an improvement for the poor people of Tien Chi.

Shinuyama should view the arrival of Pythium as liberators.

Re: Hosting delay please
 

Dark clouds are coming up over Pangaea, rampaging golems from shin and dark angels from pythium are ravaging our mainland.

Without a sound the gates of the capital have opened, an endless stream of centaurs, maenads, pans and yesterdays heroes is leaving from it. From the grim looks on the faces you can see that no one expects to survive the coming battle, but on some faces you can also see little smiles as everyone knows, that shinujama will have to suffer to stop the onslaught.

On the other side of the capital you can see another endless stream of everyone not able to fight retreating back to the dark heart of the forest. Even if it looks like Pangaea might have fallen, sometime in the future the children will come out of the forest again and take revenge on the civilization.

Re: Hosting delay please
 

The Stone Oracles of Agartha the Great have long foretold the fall of Pangea. If Pangea would have heard the words of wisdom spoken to them by Agartha, Pangea would be a blooming country. But it chose to go the way of Abysia and Vanheim. It was their free will.

Re: Hosting delay please
 

The Stone Oracles of Agartha believe in free will?!

Have they been debating with the folks at Delphi again?

The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

There is no such thing as believe as it is all destiny. Pangea chose its fate by its free will but this choice by its free will was foretold and so it is and has always been its destiny.

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

Ah, so you guys and Delphi are on the same page here. Just let me know when Pan puts out its own eyes, I've got a grove to the Furies that needs fertilizer... um, I mean, Eriu's kind hospitality will be extended to the blind and exiled pretender.

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

I don't know if anyone is interested in trading gems at this point in the game, but Ermor needs some nature gems. We have earth gems to trade for them. We can do 1.5 to 1, earth for nature. PM me if you are interested.

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

Agartha the Great declares war on Ermor. You were warned many times. Agartha the Just will crush you for hurting the earth and mining its gems.

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

Does that mean you are not interested in trading for my earth gems?

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

I hope to outlast you Pangea. Your just rewards for invading me so long ago. And my own personal victory conditions will then be fulfilled.

xox of (a small kingdom of large people) Jotunheim

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

Earth gems, heh. So small a thing to declare war over, Agartha. As I said before, most of mine fell from the sky. Still, we will fight you if you wish. We fear no nation. Will your vassal Eriu also declare war on us? We have an NAP with their fair nation. If they wish to break it, please tell us now sirs!

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

wait and see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

Eriu will not break treaty. We will, however, aggressively defend our borders.

We have no formal treaties with Agartha; we simply refrain from exploiting the earth in ways that the oracle finds offensive. You know, good neighbor stuff, like not letting your dog poop in their yard. And having the oracle right next door is great for finishing the sunday puzzle, you know.

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

We thank you Eriu, we had hoped that you were an honorable neighbor state. We shall certainly not try and go through your lands to meet our new foe. There are, after all, other ways through which we can reach them, without ever touching your lands.

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

Dear Ermor, before your barbarian kingdom takes any funny steps against Agartha the Invincible we would like to remind you, that Agartha IS invincible. You might have seen what happend to Abysia, Mictlan, Vanheim and what is now happening to Pangea.

Re: The wisdom of the Stone Oracles
 

Dear Agartha, we did not declare war on you, much the opposite. You declared war on us. For what? Trying to sell a few of the earth gems fallen from the skies?

We do not mine earth gems. What is the use? Death gems are our forte, and those we mine most heartily.

We are willing to call off this war, if you are.

Re: The Wisdom of Panakeia
 

The populace of Tien Chi has spoken! They are now basking happily in their worship of Panakeia, as evidenced by the strong dominion of Panakeia among the population.

Suicide attacks from Pangaea and Shinuyama do little to affect the tranquility of the population, and accomplish little other than giving valuable battle training(and items) to the Angels who overlook over the City. Some are calling it the City of Angels.

As an aside, how many mages will Pythium have to feeblemind before its enemies realize that pythium is not a race they can mind hunt?

Got to see the Show?

And how many spies will patrols uncover before the nations of the World realize that their spies cannot penetrate the inner sanctum of Pythium's lands? There is nothing to see.
Nothing. Move along, move along.

Re: The Wisdom of Panakeia
 

Hehe, I sent my armies into the wrong territory. After forming them up on Tien Chi's capital I forgot to set them back to move to Pangaea's province. D'oh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The Wisdom of Panakeia
 

Ok, so no one bit on the earth gems. Oh well, no big deal, and it pissed Agartha off anyway, so offer is withdrawn.

But Ermor now offers glossy black death gems for nature gems. What a deal! Get rid of your lackluster nature gems for ultra-useful death gems. Hurry, this offer won't last long.

PM me for details.

Re: The Wisdom of Panakeia
 

Pythium has so many d gems that they resemble a slag yard.
To what use can they be put again? Perhaps to summon a tartarian with a Shattered Soul? The key question is will a hopelessly insane Tartarian recognize friend from foe? Or will he have any friends at all?

Re: The Wisdom of Panakeia
 

Whewie, gotta love that. The turn you step in to sub you see a fight where you lose 69/104 mages. Blech! Anyway, I'm running Caelum now, so send any messages my way. And R'yleh is a weenie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: The Wisdom of Panakeia
 

Wow. Caelum has been through, like 3 players now. That is truly a schizophrenic nation.

Caelum... calling Caelum. This is Ermor. Yes, Ermor. We are at peace. Repeat, we are at peace.

Hope that got through.

Re: The Wisdom of Panakeia
 

I am guessing there was a server reset?

When are we going to go to a 72 hours hosting period for this game? Hopefully around the same time the new mega game gets busy.

Re: The Wisdom of Panakeia
 

Looks like we are on a 72 hosting period already.

A warning to all nations: Pythium is going to take two of my castles very soon. There is a large army of Tartarians and other large HP units rampaging my lands with plenty of High level astral mages. He is casting plenty of Ghost Riders; many Harbingers and other assorted SC's are flying around my lands as well.

As he takes more of my provinces the more he grows in power. If you don't stop him now it will probably be too late.
If you are willing to let him be the winner, so be it.

The Bakemono will never surrender and will die honourably to the last man.

Re: The Wisdom of Panakeia
 

Actually, we did lose a province to Pangaea last turn(: So it was not all roses and wine.

In fact we have steadily lost all but 2 of the provinces we have taken from Pangaea, as our sc's have not fared well against the sleep vines of the carrion crap.

And I think Ctis, and his allies are still the most powerful block of nations, though it was Shinuyama's unopposed rise to the top of the graphs that forced Pythium to get involved in the first instance.

The bad thing about being Pythium is we are all alone(: No one likes us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

And those high hp tartarians, i just needed to get them out of my lands before they go insane. If you look closely most are blind, feebleminded, and have other afflictions.

Also, Pythium is quite nervous as there appears to be many warmongering nations surrounding us. On one turn we notice we have caelum as a neighbor, and on the next the Ryleh.

Then even the settled boundaries of the water provinces appear to have changed, unless our memory deserts us.

Re: The Wisdom of Panakeia
 

The web summary don't reflect the new hosting period.
I wish it was corrected as there will probably be some stale turns sooner or later.

List of suspects is quite narrow
 

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...83a8c06f2g.jpg

With Machaka, Ulm, and Tien Chi already dead, I would be quite careful with this sort of stuff as Panakeia was not born yesterday, and deals quite harshly with unprovoked attacks.

Re: List of suspects is quite narrow
 

Is there a single nation that Shinuyama has not asked to attack the Peaceful People Of Pythium? Folks, take a look at the score graphs. When Pythium attacked Shinuyama the foul demons were far and away the strongest nation.

Pythium's so-called flying forces consist of 3 harbingers. Yes, there are a few s mages, but shinuyama has his own wizards and adepts of the golden order. And we saw how far s mages got poor Arcoscephale, whose peaceful civilization was savaged by Shinuyama.

And yes, Pythium also has 3 gor tartarians in Shin's lands. Other nations have many times the number of gor tartarians that pythium has.

And let us not mourn poor Shinuyama prematurely. He has yet to lose a single fort, and has more provinces, forts and capitals than most of you from whom he is seeking aid.

He can also recruit high hp mages that can cast summon earthpower, then spam banefire at every fort, and he has many national summons that consist of foul demons that throw lightning and fire. Be glad that Pythium has sacrificed many men, and spent many gems to hold this foul menace at bay.

Due to the vast distances that Shin.'s Empire spans, literally hundreds of gems were used to transport troops to remote corners of the globe. Pythium, unlike certain other nations, will not beg for help, but we will not turn away donations from other enlightened nations that do not want to see the Demons rule the Earth.

Pythium-A Name you Trust.