Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Damn, it's not possible to describe how I hate clams.
I had to conquer half of the world, have been saving every gem possible for 10 turns, and alchemize everything I had just to cast this 999-Nexus — and it was overwritten (not even dispelled!) in one turn by some fishfolk who had never had more than 20 provinces. This was definitely the most crushing (though predictable) defeat I've ever experienced. Well, Mictlan is certainly doomed now, but while you are taking our lands we'll be forging our own clams, so we can expect this game to last a year more.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Oh bugger. Rappi forgot to buff for a turn to let Virtue turn returning on. Poor Rappi! All he wanted was to disarm a few of the tartarians besieging Abysia. Virtue, Picus and Procas are all up for grabs.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

There reenters an already eliminated unknown the equations. Admittedly I feel considerably more confident now. :smirk:

ComfortZone is just 7 months old now, so let's make the first year full at first...

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Apoligies for the Nexus overwrite alhorro. But getting the Nexus up seems to have been Jim's entire game plan from the outset judging by what I see (S9 God, clam forgers). Also know that Jim is a particular fan of the Nexus as well. But guessing he lost interest in the game long before his stales kicked in though, as there were a load of clams just sitting in the lab, plus a lot of provinces he hadn't been bothered to search yet (as seen by the recent Atlantis fort jump on the graphs). So would have been interesting to see how this game had gone if Jim had been focused on it.

I wasn't planning on prolonging this game by shifting the power balance around, but I also would have felt bad if I had intentionally played poorly by not putting the Nexus up (as it was a very obvious thing to do). Certainly nothing against you / Mictlan which was left over from my C'tis stewardship. I don't do that sort of thing, and I treat every new game or position exactly as it should be treated. As new, with no outside baggage.

But think you are right in saying this game will go on for quite some time yet. I'm sure wins should be awarded for endurance as well as for conquest :)

Also starting to agree with many others that making gem producing items unique is the way to go in future MP games.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Hosting postponed by 8 hours on alhorros request

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

As you might have noticed, I had granted myself three extra hours for my turn 94. I promise to work harder on turn 95 :smirk: .

But I already announce a delay now for turn 96. That turn would regularly be due on Sa the 18. I'm going on vacation from 15th to 22th. So I'll postpone turn 96 until Thursday the 23rd.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

And once again:

( Not that I'd mind having more time :smirk: )

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Oh man, this makes me laugh so hard, I'm sorry alhorro. <3

This game wanted to thwart me every step of the way, but I was willing to play it out to the end, building up for the Nexus, and intending to do what I could to shake up the landscape. It's nice to see that even though I lost internet access (it's been back on for an hour now), that those pearls went to good use, rather than being squandered by the AI.

My apologies if my sudden absence caused any complications. <3

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Good to have you back Jim :)

If you want to step back into the Altantis throne room I'm more than happy to stand aside. Been keeping the seat warm for you while dealing with everyday Atlantian affairs. And making sure your lovely collection of clams didn't go to waste of course.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

vfb has passed C'Tis over to Pelthin ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/member.php?u=10227 ) .

As Jotunheims leader I'm glad that C'Tis lands will not fall undefended to Mictlan :smirk:

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

@ All

Apologies everyone, but I think I'm going to have to look for a permanent sub to take over Atlantis. The turn time for the nation is creeping up every turn, and this is without me doing anything other than doing routine stuff and grabbing whatever R'yleh/Indy provinces are up for grabs. There is a lot of good things going on for Atlantis, but I just don't have the time personally to do this nation's position the justice it deserves.

I asked Jim Morrison a month ago if he wanted to resume control of his nation, but I didn't get any sort of committed reply, and that was two weeks ago now, so not holding out much hope for his return now. But I'm pretty confident I can find a sub given the position.

I'll certainly keep playing until I have found a sub though, since I wasn't willing to let Atlantis fall into the AI's hands 20 turns ago, and even less willing for that to happen now after the time I've put into them.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

@alhorro and @Valerius

You two are the last dedicated players in this game. So would please one of you volunteer to take over the admin role?

If no one speaks up, I'll give the password to both of you... :smirk:

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Well, I don't think I can call myself a dedicated player. I only take enough time on my turns to fight off your attacks to the best of my ability. ;)

I think it makes sense to send the password to both of us. But really I think we should call it a game. Anyway, I can't imagine we'd find anyone crazy enough to want to sub into this.

I also want to thank you for stepping in to keep the game going. At the time you subbed it was already a lot of work to run Jotunheim; now I can only imagine how bad it is. You played very well.

I would also think it best to call the game at this stage. Either as undecided or a draw. The most important question that has to be asked is "Why is it worth continuing this game?" and I guess the only person that question is relavent to now is alhorro. As the other players are basically by-standers, with little chance of achieveing anything out of this game before the end.

There's also the problem of finding a sub for Jotunheim. I'd be more than amazed if a Vet took on the position, since the absolute definition of MM hell is currently occuring in both Jotunheim and Mictlan. A massive income economy is not an attractive thing as an advert to a Vet looking to sub. Since they well know that the game would immediately eat many hours per day of their time. So the only sub you will get is a new-ish player either looking for experience, or someone who just wants to try out late game strategies. For the past week, I've been looking without success for just such a sub for the Atlantis position.

You also have to consider that if this game continues along its current lines, then it will easily take another 50+ turns before any winner might appear. And that is if Atlantis does nothing, as just by joining the war I reckon they could add another 30+ turns on top of that again.

It's always nice to win a game of dominions, but at some point you really do have to consider what the worth is. Is it worth spending another 200+ hours on this game just to get an actual winner? And the Ulm situation was never sorted, so the game already has a few issues with credibility. As I've never seen a nation in a game be allowed to go on for so long as just left 'in status'.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Hm, and I've just regained the interest after about 40 turns of Nexus-related boredom. It's a paradox why people banish themselves to MM-Hell if they are eventually getting bored with it — I'm still avoiding MM with this game, and it's not all that bad I must admit. And I definitely think we shouldn't declare a draw, as it makes all the time we put in the game pointless. It's a great opportunity to test different endgame strategies after all.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Well. The only conceivable effect of resolving Ulms situation would have been: a longer front line between Jotunheim and Mictlan and thus even more MM.
I wanted to avoid that effect.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Yes, and that is my point really.

As the Ulm situation is something that has been artificially created, and is not something that should be part of any proper MP game (I've certainly never seen such a thing before). Ulm were, and still are, being used as a false barrier to make things easier for Jotunheim. An active Ulm could be, or could have been attacking Jotunheim, or upon Jotunheim's conquest of Ulm, have resulted in a second front being created for Mictlan to attack them. Which could be to Mictlan's great benefit, as then they could use resources they have in the C'tis area against Jotunheim a lot easier than they are currently able to.

Whereas a dead Ulm like we have now is just a very big benefit to Jotunheim, as it enables them to only be fighting on one front, and this is entirely down to the un-resolved issue regarding Ulm. Which I think is both unfair and unrealistic.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Master Enslave is the show stopper here.

I got pretty much pratice in MM. Probably I would have carried on without Master Enslave.

Without Master Enslave Jotun could conquer one castle after the other by concentrating the biggest army in the game with the most battle mages on one castle. Concentrating on only one big army is still micro-manageable.

Master Enslave is ridiculously overpowered and that is so only in favor of the _defending_ army.
It prevents the superior nation from excerting its force.

Regarding the MM thread on the general board:
Not Arcane Nexus or any other spells are a problem for deciding a big game. Master Enslave needs to be banished IMHO.

I didn't do every possible min/max thing in order to cut down my MM. Only for cutting down MM I kept the front line short. Of course strategycally it would have been better to eliminate Ulm and make a second front there with Mictlan.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Hmmm...

I was controlling Ulm and once forged a big alliance with Van/TC/Atlantis/Arco to stop Jotun, even had chance to break the big empire. But soon I realized we were just helping Mictlan and that was unfair for Jotun, especially for a relative new player.
Besides I was struck in the MM of another game, So I abandoned the hope and left the wars behind, just wanted to see who between Mictlan/Jotun would win in the end.
For me keeping neutral is the fairest thing I could do, otherwise I should have come to help Ctis by attacking Mictlan, as Ctis was my best ally in this game. I have less time for play, but ending a turn once a while would not take too much either. And I am caurious about its end.

I must say the current big stalemate is just the prove to this games disappointment itself. As the MM is hitting, even the game itself has been very cruel for any players still want to keep their track in the end game. And the exciting yet terrible map is also to blame. There is almost none chance for players started in the middle of the world. As I was in my position, I had to rely my back on ally (ctis) to win Ashdod/TC. But I also knew I would never get a solid place in another continent and keep my nation border in good shape without replacing the whole Jotunhiem which is of course impossible at all.

In this end game I beileve Atlantis is the more determined force as he can help one side to win or let them keep on drawing. As for Ulm, I doubt whether if I changed my side the game would be over soon in a "fair" end. And as Ulm has been doing nothing except ending turn since long, they would almost achieve nothing considering the current situation, just introduce more MM to other players.

For me as the Mictlan and Jotun were arising simultaneously in two separat continents and the ocean had been united by one race, the game had already be dropped into the draw. And all other people can do is whether to side and help one race to win or another.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

I think it's clear that we aren't going to find a sub. It seems a shame not to have some kind of resolution to this game given the amount of effort put in, especially by alhorro and duncanshriek.

Would anyone object to me declaring alhorro the winner and posting this game in the victorious nations thread? I'm not saying this as his ally but based on the fact that he is the last man standing. If this had gone the distance both he and duncanshriek would have been worthy winners but I think this game has gone as far as it's going to.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Yeah, a sub for Jotunheim was never a likely possibility IMO, and only stood a remote chance if an 'active sub-finding' approach was taken, rather than a passive one.

A difficult call now with regards the result. My impression during my first stint in this game as C'tis (roughly turns 65-80) was that Mictlan was easily the dominant nation, and if Jotunheim had dropped out at that stage I would have had no problem declaring Mictlan the winner. But my second stint in the game as Atlantis (roughly turns 85-present) has seen Jotunheim certainly level the scale, and maybe even take the upper hand IMO. My impression is that the Jotunheim-Mictlan war will literally go on forever unless a significant other force intervenes on proceedings (namely Atlantis in this case)

But then again, if alhorro wants to play on for the win, and he has no opponent, then that's a win in my books no questions asked. He's certainly battled long and hard in this game against good opposition, so there's certainly no questions about having not earned a win properly.

So I'd pass the call on this to alhorro personally. If he feels he has done enough to claim the win here, then it's a win. If he feels he doesn't realistically have the resources to overcome Jotunheim from the current position given a competent opponent, then it's a draw.

As the original C'tis, I must say that alhorro really cleaned my clock! I'm eternally grateful to him for the painful lessons on efficient tartarian-destroying. Your cheaply-equipped Sea King SC was very cool too! Did he survive to the end? A well-deserved victory IMO.

Thanks to Cleveland too, for teaching me to ignore the "weak" nation of Man at my peril. :) And thanks to Calahan for subbing C'tis and teaching me some neat tricks with them too, in the process.

Final thanks go to Pelthin for taking over as the final leader of the doomed lizards (I think).

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Actually I expected Atlantis to win. Duncan posted his income — 500 gems & 500 slaves, I had a bit less, and we both had been burning resources at war, while Atlanis should have had much more. However we all had been using different strategies — Jotun had several Seraphs and LEGIONS of different fighters and mages, I had about 15 geared teleporting tartarians and 2 teleporting ME communions, and nobody knows what Atlantis had in the sleeve. As I've already mentioned, the game has only become interesting for me by the end. I don't know why people often consider endgame to be a stalemate — it's just a scaling, and someone inevitably wins — we're just using full-buffed demons instead of naked chaff, SCs instead of elite troops, S12 communions instead of A2 mages and FFtS instead of Seeking Arrows.

I had three Kings, and they all "survived" to the end... as HoF Mummies. One of them had Heroic Quickness with 6 swings per turn, he was a real death machine even at the endgame (:

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

I think Atlantis has/had a pretty decent outside shot at winning right now. I felt I was certainly gaining ground at a fair pace due to the top guys expending/losing their resources against each other. And it was probably only my RL time constraints that prevented me from gaining ground quicker.

Off the top of my head, I think I was pulling in around 400 Astral each turn on average. ~200 from clams (adding 8 per turn) and ~200 from the Nexus. But all I was finding the RL time for each turn was to empty my lab, summon/recruit new equipment holders, summon several other things, and sort out battles for R'yleh. I was probably missing out on ~200 Astral per turn from the Nexus just by not having the RL time to use my ~4000 non Astral/blood stockpile in a productive way.

I had 5-6 wish casters, and was usually wishing about 3-4 times per turn. But the only thing I had time to wish for were gems, hence my gem mountains at the end. Anything else would have required me to have time to plan something more concrete. I was also summoning about 6 Juggernaughts each turn, and had about 50 by the end IIRC. Would have been interesting to see how quickly my dominion would have started ramping up had the game continued. There were already some signs of that happening on the graphs, and predicting Ulm's dominion would have fallen within the next 10 turns (especially with my many Stone Idol scout carriers in their land)

My plan for winning was probably going to be based on mass Armageddon's at some point soon, to both eliminate the blood hunting of my rivals (since I had no chance of getting a blood economy going, and could always Wish for slaves), plus it would be a good way of leveraging my S9 Bless (since every commander had a shroud by the end). And then perhaps gaining as much ground as possible against the minor nations, before turning on the strongest out of the remaining two. As I'd suspect/rely on neither of the two leaders wanting to start a war against me, as that could jeopardise their victory chances by having me side with their main rival.

But all those things are just unknowns now I guess, plus I would have had to devote a ridiculous amount of time to this game to have had a shot at winning. And that's time I am unlikely to have for quite a while (hence my attempt to sub-out this position in order for someone with time to do it justice).

Ah well, thanks for having me as sub, and well played duncanshriek and alhorro, with the latter getting my congrats for the win :)

Catch you all again in some future games.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Based on the feedback I guess I won't post this game in the victorious nations thread. If there are no objections, I'll delete the game from the llamaserver in a couple of days.

Good game, everyone.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Well, if my opponents still can't continue playing after some rest and my persuasion attempts — that means I won. Technical knockout still counts. Not that I care much about HoF, but let it be a lesson for everyone, that MM Hell is much more fearsome, than Cocytos and Inferno combined }:[

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Well, as you can see from the comments above I don't think anyone objects to that. It was mainly your own opinion that inclined me not to post the win. But I will add the game to the victorious nations thread and delete it from the llamaserver this weekend.

I don't think you need to worry about that. Plenty of players fear late game MM - myself included. :) I'll certainly never join another large game like this. It's fun at the beginning with different wars going on all over the map, but if you survive until the end it's tedious.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

so who won this?

atlantis? really? I thought I had killed most of their mages. Good show, if they recovered.

Re: ComfortZone - All MA Nations - Running
 

Alhorro/Mictlan won by concession. Duncanshriek did a nice job taking over from you and eventually the two superpowers, Jotun and Mictlan, met and fought it out until Jotun had had enough. A good game until the end when the large map and clams made the whole thing tedious.