Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Sombre, I don't know if you are obtuse or just pretend to be, but I have asked if people have seen Fire Arrows been used in MPs under CBM. Ok, I got it, you have used it in SP. Fine. Could you please now carry on and either answer what I asked, or please ignore the question if you don't have a clue, please? :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I've used it with LA Man in vanilla, CBM makes it impossible to get it early enough and limits you to casting it only with your pretender.

I've seen it used recently in CBM 1.5, where the player using it lost nearly his entire army in two turns against a FR 100% thug. It was still early in the game - around turn 20 I think.

IMO it was not an overpowered spell in vanilla and certainly not on par with darkness. It can be countered much more easily.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

No, I used it in MP. I've already gone out of my way to answer your questions. Don't worry that won't be a problem in the future though. Good luck getting the discussion you're after with the condescending attitude and selective reading problem you seem to have.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I have been using Fire Arrows very heavily in a CBM game with Patala. The combination of CBM and Worthy heroes makes Fire Arrows a great choice for monkeys if you get a bit of luck with heroes. And it fits with other research for monkeys so in no way is it out of the normal research paths.

Also, I find that with Patala at least, empowering in fire is a given so that you can forge all the lovely cross path F/W/E/S items with Nagarishi's. So it's a great spell in CBM.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I've certainly used flaming arrows with nations (in CBM) that have an easy access to it (f2+booster or f3 casters with phoenix power). It's a very good spell, and enchantment has some very useful spells in addition to that, such as domes, demiliches, skeleton spam, some buffs, cloud trapeze, dispel to name a few. Still, I wouldn't generally solely rush to it, as it certainly isn't a very early game viable spell at ench5, when there's useful stuff to be had in other paths such as con, conj, thaum and early evocations. It all depends on the nation you're playing to be honest.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Right, make up your mind already :) I am a simpleton and get easily confused... I am sorry if I sounded harsh, but I really don't understand wether you've seen it used in MP or not. I first got the impression you don't have experience of it in MP in CBM, but seems you do after all (despite what you said). Or maybe not. Maybe you are as unsure as I am at the moment?


Maerlande, did I understand right, in your experience Patala needs to get one of the special heroes, or to empower one of the normal monkeys to get access to Fire Arrows (and that as a side-effect rather than the reason)?

Quitti, in your experience, did you feel Flaming Arrows was worth it once you got it?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Those statements aren't contradictory. I don't have the MP experience to comment on how often flaming arrows is used in CBM 1.6 or indeed more generally in CBM.

I have used flaming arrows in 3 or 4 CBM MP games. I used it most recently in Sign of the Hammer.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

It's still a good spell in CBM, and is much overpowered in vanilla, at least before CBM nerfed it. Some playstyle changes as the game has matured might limit its impact now (mostly more reliance on thugs and less reliance on armies), but it was absolutely brutal back when I started playing Dom, and the major counterspell (arrow fend) is located at level 6 research, so there was plenty of time to get brutalized in the meantime.

At level 5 the spell is reasonable, at level 4 it was a major research goal for anyone that could get archers and an F caster, since it's more or less an I-win button against any army outside of the Abysians, barring a gross mismatch in army strength. Not bad for an F2 caster with phoenix power and a couple of gems.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Not solely, but investing in enchantment magic is well worth it for most nations. Flaming arrows is a good tool to have as it is very brutal against low/med prot units. Funnily enough Pangaea, which you used as a example has one of the easiest counters to that strategy, army of gold/lead castable by national mages. I wouldn't base my strategy just on flaming arrows + archers/slingers, but I've used it to complement what I do, and in that role it performs excellently. So yes, it was worth it, I just haven't prioritized it over other stuff I find more important.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

As far as balance for Flaming Arrows goes...it's still crazy effective for nations that can get it easily, it's just no longer worth beelining to(and in some cases getting a pretender that can cast it, even without national fire mages). Anything worth that was grossly overpowered.

That being said, the second fire gem is probably no longer necessary.

Speaking of Enchantment, though, Riches From Beneath is simply ludicrous now at E5. I count a whopping 5 nations(EA Atlantis, EA Agartha, Vanheim, Kailasa, and MA Agartha) who can cast it without a pretender. Of those 5, only MA Agartha might want to cast it--except I can't think of a time when I'd rather cast Riches From Beneath over having one more kitted Marble Oracle(if you need troops, cast Hidden in Sand with the gems instead).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I can think of exactly 3 nations who would ever cast riches from beneath, ma ulm, la ulm, and warhammer dwarfs :P. I can't think of anyone else who would even consider it unless it was enchant 0.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

EA Atlantis doing the stupid thing and trying to play blessed LPs?

I could see Fomoria casting it since they're so capital based, actually, but they probably have better things to do if they ever scraped up enough E to do it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Yeah, they could consider it, but it still probably wouldn't be the best idea. Good catch though.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Right. I don't meant to say it's a tactic you plan for. But, since the multiheroes (Golden Naga) are reasonably likely with a bit of luck scale it's a great option if you get one.

I wouldn't empower for Fire Arrows. But I think it's worth empowering a Nagarishi for forging. Then fire arrows can be a bonus. Also, late game you'll have Rudras at F3 so again it's in the portfolio. Rudras also get you flaming skulls and then fire helmets so now you have the stuff for flaming arrows.

You've got stealthy cheap archers, so building some when needed and hiding them is a great option for a sneak attack. Add fire arrows and suddenly those cheap short bows become viable depending on opposition.

So to sum up, it's not a tactic Patala should plan to use. But if you get the right situation (say luck with a F/W) site, it's great to supplement.

I'm doing a Bandar Log game now too so we'll see if it fits in there. The big bandar long bows need Wind Guide and flaming arrows would be a distinct boost.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Mae is *absolutely* right that *f* absolutely increases the effectiveness of all the monkey/naga nations.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

New CBM topic: can mummy maxage please be increased?

It's a penalty for nations like TNN, whose Ri can live to like 2000 or something. But they start at the sprightly age of 655.

The mummy OTOH has a maxage of 500.

So, if you're Man or something, that's just fine and dandy. But a TNN hero who is dead just 1 month and then gets RoR'ed, all of the sudden gets 155 years of old age, even though he's been in the grave for just 30 days.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

New CBM topic: can mummy maxage please be increased?

It's a penalty for nations like TNN, whose Ri can live to like 2000 or something. But they start at the sprightly age of 655.

The mummy OTOH has a maxage of 500.

So, if you're Man or something, that's just fine and dandy. But a TNN hero who is dead just 1 month and then gets RoR'ed, all of the sudden gets 155 years of old age, even though he's been in the grave for just 30 days.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Jomon

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Jomon has way better things for e gems.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I could have bought it if you'd said ashdod. With the horrific resource costs of their sacreds, they will never be able to produce a full 10 per turn in a regular game.

Jomon, well, no. If jomon wants resources, taking production is sufficient for their needs. Beyond initial expansion you won't have any problem using up your gold buying troops once you have a decent number of forts. So, unless riches from beneath was castable on turn 1, they really wouldn't care. In general the only nations who really benefit much from riches from beneath are ones that have very powerful, high rcost cap only troops. The ulms have black halberds, which earns them a spot on the riches from beneath wagon. Jomon has... nothing really worth it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Yeah it's a cap enabler pretty much.

I think some excellent high resource units would be nice in the game. Stuff that you either have to wait a long time to build, or have production scales, clever fort placement, riches from beneath etc.

Imagine for instance if Mictlan could carve stone head monuments with significant powers, but they took 6000 resources each.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

That would be pretty damn cool, imo.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Yep, but isn't really CBM stuff, qm doesn't like adding new units; another mod with something like that would be very cool indeed;)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Unfortunately, the way the game handles resources across turns seems to be borked. If you can't build it in 2 turns, it will never get completed. (It seems to handle carry-over for one turn just fine, but not more than that)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Is that in the bug-list?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I don't remember seeing it there, but i never went looking for it specifically.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Interesting. I might have to give that a test.

If it is the case it actually opens up another option, which is to have units that cost just the right amount in resources that you need a special province or prod 3 scales or riches from beneath to be able to build them within the two turn limit.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Wouldn't it be a trap for the IA, making it queue units it will never be able to complete ?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Possibly. But simple enough to not use the mod with the AI if so. I also suspect the AI wouldn't try and build them.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Qm has done a great job in this mod of making some nations stronger, but there is a lot of work yet to be done on nation balance. I would like to see a balance mod where no nations are clearly much more powerful than others. Ideally, nations like niefelheim, hinnom, mictlan, etc would actually be on par with other nations in terms of strength, rather than clearly ahead. Thus, I'd like to jumpstart a discussion of nation balance by proposing my own list of changes that I feel would do more than provide small power buffs to weak nations, but rather give them a substantial boost putting them on par with the powerhouse nations.
thus here is my list. i welcome disagreement/discussion, and i acknowledge i am not the most experienced of players. Nevertheless, I think some discussion of nation balance is warranted, especially with the removal of gem gens.

EA arcoscephale:
1. Mage engineers recruitable everywhere
2. Oreiads get A3E1N2 default with the extra 110 percent random
3. lower encumbrance on icarids

EA ermor:
1. Augurs get a point in D magic
2. Augur elders get an extra 100 percent F/D/A/S random

EA Ulm:
1. 50 percent random on smiths increased to 100 percent
2. Archers restored to vanilla stats
3. Antlered shamans increased to N3

Marverni:
1. Druids reduced to 300, W random option removed, leaving randoms only S/E/N
2. Axe wielding infantry +1 strength

Sauromatia:
As is

Tien'chi:
1. Master of elements recruitable everywhere
2. Reduce resource cost on archers

Mictlan:
As is

EA Abysia:
1. Warlock and Warlock apprentice recruitable outside of capital
2. Extra point of earth on Annointed of Rhuax
3. Demonbred given leadership 40/Undead leadership 40

EA Caelum:
As is

EA C'tis:
1. extra point of N on Sauromancers, research malus 1 to compensate
2. Serpent dancer cost reduced by 5

EA Pangaea
1. Centaur warrior price reduced by 5
2. Pan reduced to 300
3. Maenad generation rate reduced

EA Agartha
1. Extra E/Element random on Oracles
2. Earth readers 10 Percent chance of extra E random
3. heat 2 preference

EA tir'na'nog
1. Extra point of E on Tuatha sorc and Ri
2. Sidhe warrior price reduced by 3

Fomoria
As is

EA vanheim
1. Dwarven smiths recruitable everywhere
2. Sacred boar cost reduced by 10

EA Hellheim
1. Svartalfs restored to recruit anywhere

Niefelheim
As is

Kailasa
1. Yaksha recruitable everywhere
2. Bandar longbows reduced to 18 gold

Yomi
1. MR on demon troops increased by 2
2. Reduce encumbrance on Dai oni armor by 2
3. Old age removed from sorcerer

Hinnom
As is

Atlantis
1. MR on all "Deep" troops increased to 10

R'lyeh
As is

EA Oceania
I have no idea where to go with this one.....

Lanka:
As is

Feedback on this list? Unless people really hate talking about this, I'll post some suggestions for other ages later. Once again, i only intent this as a starting point for a discussion of nation balance, not as some kind of definitive list.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

My first comment seems like a lot of those changes are simply counter to the style of CBM as a whole--QM doesn't like changing mage paths.

Regarding Abysia...at most you would want to make Warlock Apprentices recruit anywhere, and that changes the whole feel of the nation. Furthermore, you would also have to change at least MA Abysia with the same change. It for sure would make them more powerful by a substantial margin, but it also makes them a full-on blood nation.

It would make sense to give Agartha Heat-1 or 2, seeming as everyone takes it anyways, and it would benefit them to have some extra design points.

In general the 'recruit anywhere' suggestions are thematic minefields. Just look at the MA Man warden fallout(I for the record approve of that change, but many others didn't).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

And this is exactly why Jomon's Sohei should not be made recruitable anywhere. Oh, please no.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Well I tried to avoid making any nation's strongest, iconic mage recruitable everywhere, except kailasa, and maybe that was a bad idea. I can't see anything wrong with making warlock apprentices at least recruitable everywhere, and mage engineers almost never get used otherwise. Svartalfs and Dwarven smiths aren't the iconic mage for either of their nations, IMO.

I don't understand the problem with extra magic paths. They make nations more interesting by adding more options. In EA especially, the more human nations are magically equivalent or weaker than their non-human counterparts, who often come with impressive physical stats, immunities, and other powers. Ermor's frail, old elders should be better at magic than Niefelheim's giants.

Caveat: I am not much of a thematic person, preferring balance over staying true to the spirit. I understand QM's reasons for not touching certain things, and perhaps there should be a separate nation balance mod. However since the thread is for "complete balance," I think this is an appropriate place to have the conversation.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

One thing EA Agartha could use, for balance, I think, is easier research. Its mages get 4 and 7 RP for 120 and 350GP (sacred), which is pretty lousy overall, especially for early era.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

That's not really true for EA T'ien Chi eihter. Sure, they have captial only celestial masters, but these are not the best mages you want to recruit. They fly and are expensive, so being capital only is not much of a drawback. If you allow masters of the elements to be recruited everywhere, there's simply no reason to recruit any mage except masters of the 5 elements and celestial masters in the capital, thereby removing 2 units from the game, which is counter to CBM purpose.
Furthermore, I fail to see how this strengthens T'ien Chi. I'm also not sure they need boosting. The cost reduction on archers would let them mass more archers, but would it really help? To me, EA TC is a bless nation. Warriors of the 5 elements will make mincemeat of most other troops but are capital only, so later on, you switch to TC's sacred national summons. The biggest problems EA TC may face early on is Hinnom (fire resistant giants with good mr) or hyper aggressive Mictlan eagle warriors flying above your archers. Where T'ien Chi is weak is late game: They have weak astral and death mages, so must make up by having a good early/mid-game so they can empower or summon better mages. The boosts you propose don't help early on and don't help late-game. Masters of the 5 elements would make T'ien Chi a nation with awesome battlefield magic without need for communions, but I'm not sure they need an armada of wizards to back them in late game.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

There are many, many units that are not recruited and could effectively be removed from the game. Forcing people to use them doesn't exactly make the game better. Unless there's a compelling balance reason to make a unit capital only it should probably be recruitable everywhere. Otherwise you run into the actual thematic problem that no national unit should be recruitable from anywhere that is not the capital (or initial territory) since that's the only place that those troops would be trained.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

A very minor note: The mounted "soldier of the east" generated by celestial general lacks a hoof attack. It's not a big issue I know, but easy to fix so I think it should be adjusted in the next CBM.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I don't really think EA tienchi is a bless nation...... your sacreds are weak against archers and even with F9W9 they lose to most other similarly blessed sacreds (hellheim, mictlan, lanka, Hinnom, Kailasa, ). They have terrible HP in the off-season as well, where they have trouble even with regular infantry.

I also don't really understand your point about masters of the 5 elements...they are too good, but you never use them? They completely eliminate the use of masters of the way? Well, when was the last time you used the F1D1 LA c'tis cap only mage, or the equivalent one for LA agartha? nonmage commanders almost never get recruited as is, losing a lot of thematic commanders simply for not being optimal.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

???

Why should they be cap only? Sohei were warriors attached to *a* temple - something Jomon can build anywhere... There's no thematic problems here.

Further, in line with CBM's attempting to make as many options playable as possible, there is no way to make Sohei worth using that doesn't involve making them recruit everywhere. Its just not possible to justify wasting time on a bless for them when the aka-oni has better base stats and can be hired anywhere.

At least the Yamabushi has a reason to exist.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Warriors of the 5 absolutely destroy W/F jags, contrary to your assertion, although I was using an S bless, not an F.

I haven't tried against other sacreds. Additionally, the S bless makes their weak HP in the off season not nearly so bad, since they'll have some leftover HP that will take a while to bleed off, which combos well with twist fate. Oh, and it's cheaper to get too.

Also, your suggestion that Atlantis get almost nothing and rlyeh gets absolutely nothing while giving kailasa recruit-anywhere top-tier mages kind of makes me doubt your grasp on "balance."

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Well, I don't know much about underwater nations, having only played two UW games and hating them both. Once again, I don't claim to be some kind of expert, I just thought it would be interesting to have discussion of nation balance with some kind of starting point.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Alpine:
I think your list isn't sufficiently thought out regarding which nations are weak and which are strong.

EA Ermor in no way needs a boost. Its plenty strong as it is, and capable of defeating any of your power nations, even in a rush scenario. The key, of course, is knowing what your anti-rush spells are, and actually start researching them *before* you get rushed.

While Marveni isn't really as bad as people seem to think either (it has good earth magic, the best rush-counter path there is), reducing druid cost further is probably warranted. 340 is a lot of gold for an old mage with 8 RPs.

EA TC needs no help.

And so on. A few nations could definitely use a boost (like EA Agartha), but for most of them people need to get used to the fact that being a different nation means playing them differently. I really can't understand how any nation with good E+S can be considered weak (ie, Marveni) unless people just haven't thought about what their options are during an early war. I imagine a similar analysis applies to many nations. As long as you have acceptable expansion options against indies, the real key is finding those spells which can keep you alive in an early war.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Well, the list of nations with no wins was my starting point to determine nation strength. Participants in the various cripple games got the biggest suggested buffs. I've only played EA ermor in one multiplayer game, but I always assumed it was understood it was a weaker nation based on its poor performance.

However, you are most likely right. Which nations do you think need buffs other than Agartha? What would you suggest micah? Unless you believe every nation is equally strong, it helps to get some suggestions, rather than pure critique, although the latter is welcome.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

You could suggest different changes rather than suggest that the game is currently perfectly balanced.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I think you guys should probably bring this to a seperate thread. CBM is less about overall balance than it is increasing the number of non-terrible options available to the player.


Personally I like not having all nations be perfectly balanced. The more perfectly balanced a game is the more boring, imo.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

Warriors of the 5 elements are very very underestimated.
EA T'ien Chi blessed beat easily Lankans and Mictlan jags. Against Hinnom they struggle. The point is not to rely on warriors of the 5 elements beyond early expansion however. You've got sacred summons. Demons of heavenly waters are not weak and very easy to get. Demons of heavenly fire with a water 9 bless shoot fire wheels very often. Celestial soldiers rock.
As for archers, there's no reason to send only warriors of the 5 elements. Bring in yoru composite bowmen for support with fire archers and 3 shielded infantry to use as decoys, and you don't have to worry about archers.

Masters of the 5 elements right now are so good that you don't always pick celestial masters in your capital, so you alternate (you want some for their flight + strong paths, the others for the random E2 and N2 in particular). If they weren't capital only, you'd always build them outside your capital, and only celestial masters in your capital. There would be no point in recruiting masters of the dead anymore since you can get D random on the celestial masters, and why would one buy masters of the way if one can buy masters of the 5 elements?

The point of CBM is to make the huge variety of units more usable. The 'Balance' in CBM means units inside a nation are more balanced so you have more reasons to pick under-used units. I don't understand why you'd want to use this mod if you think some units should be removed, as it strives to make more units usable.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

So, my hit list for power improvement would include:

EA, MA Agartha
MA Machaka
EA, MA Atlantis
MA Eriu
EA Oceania
MA, LA Ulm*
MA Man
EA TNN
EA Aby
LA Caelum

In about that order of severity. I might also consider small boosts to:

LA Atlantis
LA Jomon
MA Oceania**
EA Ulm***
MA Bandar Log**

*My biggest problem with Ulm is that the combination of 'we suck at magic' and 'we're very vulnerable to magic' is just a stupid theme that is DoA. Sucking at magic is an ok theme - but if they suck at magic, they should be especially resistant to it as well. There's really no other way to balance sucking at magic. As it currently stands, the game basically says 'everyone else has an advantage over you in area A, which is the single most important component of nation power. Oh yeah, and you're especially vulnerable to it, so not only can't you fight back with that tool very well, but they get to clobber you with it'.
**Its really hard to make a worthwhile change to these nations that meets QM's philosophy for CBM.
-Bandar Log's biggest problem is that in the early game it only gets E on randoms from Rishi. While it can eventually solve this with conjuration, its far too late to defend against a rush by the time you do so. And S+N is not the best magic for defending rushes.
-MA Oceania's problem is total lack of lategame magic, having possibly the worst magic paths in the game (as a set), and no feet slots UW to even take advantage of its E randoms at all. And having no recruitable thugs, much less SCs, Ns good uses mostly don't apply. However, QM doesn't really screw with magic paths, so no help for that. Drastically slashing the cost of Capricorns might be worthwhile, however. (Say 250 or 275 instead of 350?)
***would benefit from the same changes as MA, LA.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I didn't say that I think that units should be removed. I said that some units could effectively be removed, and will always be effectively removed from the game if they aren't worth building. People still recruit theurg acolytes even though theurgs are better mages because theurg acolytes have a useful purpose and are worthwhile. People don't recruit battle deacons, and never will as long as communicants are available. You'd have to make battle deacons free before they would be worth recruiting instead of a communicant. The Alae legionnaire might as well not exist because the hastatus is strictly superior. Reduce its gold cost to match its actual combat performance, and it would become a useful unit.

Yes, masters of the five elements are better than masters of the way, and people would recruit masters of the five elements over masters of the way if they had a choice. This doesn't mean that masters of the five elements have to remain capital only so that people will use masters of the way. It means that should masters of the five elements be made recruit anywhere, then masters of the way would have to be improved to be worth recruiting instead of a master of the five elements.

It's quite clear that balance between nations is the overall goal of the mod. Otherwise nations that have worthless national troops in vanilla like Bogarus wouldn't have been given heavy cavalry that's is virtually identical to tower knights. Your argument that the mod is meant to promote balance "within" a nation is basically nothing more than the argument mod supporters use to convince those people who like imbalance, because they can take advantage of it, to play in the modded game. The CBM doesn't go nearly far enough in making all units viable.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

qm has said before that nation balance is not the primary concern. Obviously it is something that CBM works towards addressing, but I don't know where you get that it's the 'overall goal'.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 

I love both W5E's and lankan kumas and mic-jags. But both your post and micah's post are a little simplistic.

W5E's benefit more than mic jags do from a S blessing as they are more fragile. So a heads up comparison of an F9S9 blessing mics v jags will give skewed results.

Jags have mediocre attack and defense numbers, and have the ability to survive a hit based on on their were form. In fact, their were form is de-rigeur to really get the maximum advantage from the f9 bless (three attacks vs one).

A few other factors: W5E's are very, very susceptible to archer fire. And finally, the key to beating W5E's is killing them first.

You don't use the same tools on every problem. Mictlan will probably be using eagles not jag's agaist the W5E's. Set them far back Hold and attack, and with a priest set to Bless, bless, whatever.

This allows the eagles to get the first hit, offense or defense.
And if you are doing equal GPs, (iirc 15 vs 35?) 10 eagles and a priest vs 5 M5E's and a priest should win 19/20.

Even if you *don't* do it on a gp basis - M5E's are cap only and do not scale.