Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

+1. I tthink they're a waste of water gems right now.
They seem to make good raiders.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Shishis are nice raiders, I used tham a lot and I think they're nice and balanced. Actually I'm not sure the attack nerf was even warranted.

Also agree on the grendelkin and roc, I think our dear llama was a bit too quick with the nerfbat in general.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

I think combining high attack, damage and HP in one unit is a bad idea. The key nerf they received wasn't the strength drop but the 4 point drop in attack skill. I think that was crucial in order to give anti-SC thugs a chance against them.

I support the drop in strength as well, but really they still do a lot of damage. And I can't think of any SC with more HP. And since they don't have undead/demon/magic being tags you can't use damage multiplying weapons against them the way you can most SCs.

Sure, they aren't great operating solo since they have no built-in resistances or magic to buff with. But used in conjunction with an army, or just some mages to buff them, I think they can take out SCs and anti-SC thugs handily and handle troops fairly effectively as well.

OTOH, I wouldn't have a problem with giving them things like CR 50 or poor amphibian but, especially in the latter case, I don't think llamabeast likes the idea thematically.

This has been my experience as well. I like treants but I'd rather use my N gems to forge gear for other SCs/thugs and fuel globals. Not sure what to do about that, though, other than lowering their cost.

I agree that the old cyclops was much better. I seem to recall there was some concern about them overshadowing the elemental royalty? Rather than downgrade them to match the elemental royalty I'd prefer to see their old paths return and boost the elemental royalty.

I'm very interested to hear feedback on this change. The Asynja isn't a great SC chassis but with glamour she can pick and choose her fights.

I agree. It doesn't have to have the all-in-one magic diversity/SC potential of tarts but there does need to be a way to get that kind of late game magic diversity, other than through tarts.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Here's the thing. You shouldn't be able to (easily) kill them with thugs. That's the wrong counter. They should be the undisputed kings of straight-up melee combat.

Vulnerabilities that (should) work:
Dropping a meteor on them (GftH)
soul slay, enslave mind, charm, etc...
Insufficient gear slots - basically, they can't achieve immunity to every element. So if they go with FR100 and CR100, hit them with lightning or poison.

So the appropriate nerf is to their MR if a nerf is necessary, say down to 15 or 16 base. Like with most vulnerabilities, gear can help, but they will be limited in just how high that MR can get, and are giving up other gear options to load up on MR gear.

Absolutely no on CR.

Absolutely yes on poor amphibian. I don't understand why they didn't have it to start with.

That said, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest they are actually overpowered. Hell, I'm doubtful they could even take an army by themself. Too many vulnerabilities. I mean, yeah, if you take a bunch of Pillar of Fire spamming mages against an FR100 grendelkin as your mage support you deserve what you get. But if you bring the right magic attacks to the battlefield, the grendelkin is going to die to concerted magic barrage. Hell, a Grendelkin without CR100 is going to die horribly to *numbness* spam if there's an army to follow it up. Or rigor mortis + grip of winter vs. a skelly spam army. Etc...

Basically, the 'kills absolutely any thug or SC it runs into, but dies horribly to armies' is an absolutely essential niche, because it forces people to continue to field armies. Making it vulnerable to thugs is entirely the wrong design decision.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Oh, I don't think they're easy to kill with thugs even with the nerf they received. The strength nerf doesn't matter in this situation since if they hit most thugs will die anyway. The -4 to attack they received gives the thug(s) a chance - but I think that usually they'll die anyway since without a damage multiplying weapon they won't be able to inflict enough damage before the grendelkin connects.

We disagree on whether thugs should have a chance against them. I think they should because by that stage of the game all nations can either recruit or summon some kind of thug - but not all nations can field the S magic needed for most of your suggestions. BTW, I'd rather not nerf their MR since that effectively is just a boost to S nations when they face grendelkin.

As far as grendelkin operating solo, I agree with you that they can't really achieve immunity to everthing and also have decent MR, luck and reinvig. But I think this is a good thing and that they shouldn't be able to do that when operating in a solo capacity.

Where I think they really shine (and what I see as their main purpose) is in providing muscle for armies. In that situation you can equip them with 50% resist gear and have your mages boost them to 100%.

I want mention one other notable thing about them - darkvision 75. Unlike most non-undead/demon SCs they won't be crippled by darkness.

All in all, I think the nerf to grendelkin was reasonable and that they will continue to be used. If it turns out they are being recruited less I think a bit of a pricing adjustment would fix that.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

A question, would mechanical giant receive bonus hp from Agartha golem cult?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Oh also a minor UI bug:

if there are enough commanders in a province where you can scroll the list up and down, and ember lord happens to be on the rightmost column (and not the 1st row), you cannot scroll the list back up above him, the UI registers the click on the ^ arrow as selecting the ember lord. Of course you can just select another province and switch back.

Great mod btw!

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

You can also use the + and - keys to scroll the list of commanders up and down.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Just tested it, the answer is yes. Making it a very viable, and much needed, lightning immune SC for MA Agartha.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Wouldnt it be generally more useful to edit the test nation on the distributed zip so that the # on each line is something like -- or ~ ?

I would think that most people want it not to show up. And the ones that do want to use it (please dont delete it) are usually more able to edit the file to replace all the ~ with #. Their editor might even support a mass find/replace action.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

This is related to the image size. The image for the ember lord is actually way to big. 256x256 pixels. And the whole box can be selected. Even the transparent parts. (Sadly, this is an implementation problem I think. (I think the size of the image need to be a power of 2)). The Grendelkin should have the same problem.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Couldn't it simply be included as a separate "EDMtestnation.dm" instead?

Would be way simpler to just switch the test nation on and off then.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

i ran this mod with cbm1.6 and it always crashes my game if i try to use a summon.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Sounds to me like you haven't got all the images in the right place. You need to extract not only the .dm folder, but all the images, which should be placed in a subdirectory called "diversity" within the mods folder. This should happen automatically if you extracted the zip with directories intact, but being as you're having a problem I guess somehow that didn't happen.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

having tried this mod out now a couple times i say its the best and most imporant mod i ever played with, I would integrate it into CBM, especially seeing that now all games uses both. congratulations!

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Heh. Amusingly enough, I reach the opposite opinion from the same ground facts - since most recent games use both without issues, keep them separate. That way, people can enjoy both mods together if they wish to, or vanilla+EDM, or CBM without EDM. All up to the game host & players, their whims and their fancies.
In the words of a Unix sysadmin I used to know : more options good. Fewer options bad.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - freedom to mountain cyclop!
 

I've used previous version of the mod in some SP games. This mod together with sitemod brings a lot of diversity.

But i think something must be changed

I think that treant should only be summonable in forest because ancient trees should only live deep in forest. And maybe Grendelkin should be only found in swamps

I am also very sad that in version 1.1 cyclops are not magically diverse and have no fire skill

In previous version, my enemy would not know if he will will be burnt, thunder-striken, trampled or killed by hand of my cyclop. In version 1.1, thunderstriking by cyclop requires both air bag and staff of storms; none of the cyclops can cast magma eruption; lack of fire shield prevents cyclop from becoming good super-combatant

I suggest that cyclop seen in ver.1.1 be renamed to "granite cyclop" and be summonable everywhere on land; stronger cyclop seen in ver. 1.1 (called "Mountain Cyclop" or "Ancient Cyclop") be summonable in mountains

I hope to see the strong cyclop in next version of the mod. If this does not happen, i will probably fork the mod

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Any reason why the Zmey is only 50 years old? I was quite surprised when BoT started affecting my Zmeys. Is there a reason thematically or is this an oversight?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

An oversight, I'm afraid.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Please to be changing to 1337 years old.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

How exactly the Wendigo mechanic works? I mean it´s changing stats/size/etc.... would it be possible to use a similar mechanic to allow normal mages to advance to a better/more experienced mage form.... as an example, would it be possible to use the mechanic to make a MA Man Daughter of Avalon to change to a Mother of Avalon after certain number of turns and, afterwards, to a Crone of Avalon?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Makinus, that's an amazing idea. Advance via exp, Ala disciples.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Technically that would be possible, yes. The way the wendigo works is this: each form of the wendigo is given a shape that it should "revert" to - this is the same as the way Mictlan's were-jaguars revert to jaguar warriors after battle. The reversion process happens at the end of every battle, and at the end of every turn. The trick with the wendigo is that instead of reverting to its original shape, it moves on to a new shape each time.

So, if you were to use this for Daughters of Avalon:
- They would move on one step not only every turn but also every battle, which doesn't really make sense (for the Wendigo this is justified by its consumption of corpses after battle)
- You'd need to use as many unit numbers as the number of turns you want the process to last. e.g. if you want a daughter to turn into a crone after 20 turns, you'll need to use 21 different unit numbers. This is fine for one or two units, but would become prohibitive if you wanted to do it for lots of things.

On the whole, I don't think it's workable except for cases where it's especially thematic. Another cool one would be a dragon's egg which would turn into a hatchling, then a young dragon, then finally a big dragon. Again there would have to be some reason why battle made the dragon grow bigger (eats victims? thrives on combat?)

Edit: WraithLord, that wouldn't be possible.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

The only way to advance from one form to another is in battles? Even so it could work... we could justify Daughter -> Mother as battle experience as the sprites are not too different... but Mother -> Crone is harder to justify (maybe fighting causes early aging to Avalon witches? could be even thematic with the curse that shows up in LA Man).

Another idea would be a ritual that transforms one unit in another (Orc Empire does something like this with the Mawgut), but i´m not certain yet in how to restrict the ritual to only a single type of unit....

Thanks for the answer... i´ll think a little more and see if i find another way....

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

No, it changes both turn to turn, and in battle as well. So if it fights it changes twice in one turn.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

While this sounds like a good idea, I think it's all that it can remain, just an idea as it seems rather difficult to implement.
If every battle were to change a unit into a forward form, what's to stop someone to attack/retreat just to gain those forms in twice the time?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

I really want to try this mod. I have it all unziped in the Divirsity folder in the Mod folder, but I've experienced no changes. What am I missing? Went through the whole Mod pdf and don't see anywhere where it says how to actually activate a Mod.
Regards

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

In the main menu of the game, go to Preferences -> Mod Preferences, and activate the mods you want :)

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Thanks for the quick response Jarkko, Mod Preferences is empty, nada, nothing there and this is the only Mod I was trying to load. I'll delete and unzip again and see what happens.
Regards

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Uh, it sounds like you're doing everything right, but there are no bugs or anything around this so I'll just go through the details.

Firstly, are you using Windows?

Let's say dominions is in c:\games\dominions3

Find the folder c:\games\dominions3\mods (check the spelling - someone before had a folder called "mod" which didn't work).

Unpack all the stuff from the zip into that folder. So now there should be a file called "diversity_1_1.dm" in the mods folder. That's all you need in order to be able to select the mod from within dominions.

There should also be a folder called "diversity" full of sprites in the same place. You don't need the folder full of sprites in order to be able to select the mod, but when you actually try to use it the game will crash unless the sprites are in the right place.

Let us know how you get on.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

You also need to make sure to exit Dominions, as new mods won't appear on the mod selection list until the game is re-started.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

btw, thoughts about zmey:

i know the ember lord is waay better for F gems, but he does take a lot of gear to make his awesomeness optimal. zmey on the other hand need no gear to be fairly cheap raiders. if you want to give them an AMA or something you can, but gearless, they can kill any amount of pd pretty much. also, they're pretty hard to counter-raid and actually kill since they have 3 forms, they cant be killed as fast, and once they lose two heads they usually run away. btw, 1 head is still able to raid as long as the pd isnt like 20. I've used a lot of them, and really like the results so far. of course i have a lot of F gems and not a lot of S and other gems

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Llama, will you be releasing an updated version of EDM as a standalone? (as I know the recent CBM's have seen updates to the EDM section)

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - stable version (v1.1) released
 

Yes! Well reminded.

New version is attached to the first post. Here is the changelog:

Moved ID numbers around so mod is compatible with all of the nation mods in Sombre's [MC] Mod Catalogue (see other forum), as well as CBM 1.6.
Roc now has "Roc beak" attack which is armour piercing
Roc gained powerful one-use AOE 1 "Aerial Dive" attack.
Zmey much cheaper: 25 gems (was 35)
Mechanical giant cost increase to 20 gems (16)
Cyclops cost increase to 35 gems (30)
Grendelkin cost decrease to 35 gems (40)
Asynja randoms reduced from 210% AEDB to 160% AEDB
Treant: cost reduced to 30 (40). Research level to 7 (8)
Ettin: Cost reduced to 14 (18). Research level to 5 (7).
Ettins gained 50% shock resistance, cold resistance and poison resistance.
Asynjas gained good Enchanted Sword and Weightless Shield items.
Kraken magic: Previously was W3E1B1 in EDM, W1, 150% WEN in CBM. Now W2B1 + 50% W + 50% E + 50% N in both.
Kraken: Cost 30 gems in EDM, 16 in CBM. Now costs 20.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

Thank you llama!
Roc's change are very interesting, I'd eager to see what it can do as thug/anti-sc thug. Perhaps reduce some of its siege&patrol bonus in exchange?

Zmey's price balance is great! Though zmey is a really good raider, it is still inferior to Iron angel with gears of 15 gems, not to mention grendelkin. E gems are precious, but can not be used to mass ember lord later anyway.

But why increase mechanical giant's cost? It's 12 base mr makes it easy prey to spell like disintegrate, opposition or control, I cant help but compare it with marble oracle....

Cyclops should be increased like this, after all, it's a E3 mage. Though I still think that make it E2F1?FE100% would be better.....

Grendelkin....well, we've talked quite a lot about it, I still think it shoul cost 45 as marble oracle in vanilla or 50 as that of a elemental royalty.

Asynjas and Kraken now have one or more 50% picks, isn't it a little luck dependent for a costy summon? Other changes are really good, hopefully ettin and Kraken will be much more common in the battle field

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

I played with and against Ember Lords in a few games and I noticed that a massive part of of their opponents became blind. I am looking at the .dm file and I'm wondering whether the line:
"#copystats 1384 -- Solar Disc, to get high heat"
is the reason for this. Maybe the Solar Disc does possess this hidden feature?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Solar_Disc

Yep, solar disk has blind attacker.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

Gnargh, how have I never noticed this before?

Okay, it's on the bug list. Should be possible to find some kind of way round it.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

Just updated the mod in the first post to 1.21.

Changes:
- Attacking an Ember Lord no longer causes blindness.
- Rejigged nation ID usage to reduce the chance of conflicts.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

Is there a document or a web page that lists all of the summonable creatures' stats? I understand I can create a test game with the EDM nation but perhaps someone has done the work for me?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

Not really, somebody should really make one on the wiki. Just one page with all the stats.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

The "Mod Reports" that Lars was considering adding to his mod editor would be just what you're looking for, I think. You might want to respond in his thread if you're interested:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47560

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

Having tried, I second this for Asynjas.

I do not really see the point of Asynjas having blood, but then I play mostly Caelum as an Air nation. It's certainly pointless for SC since you do not walk around with slaves. I suspect it might come in handy for air / blood nations like vanheim, that can use them in communions, but with 2 air and no garanteed blood, it's probably better just to use nationals.

What they lack to be cost effective is either garanteed access to 1 earth, or 2 death : access to armor-boosting spells or to soul vortex, and mist-form not dependant on gear. I do think that the combinaison of all three is really unbalanced, and I do not really remember other SC having all those paths.

As a comparison point to give you the reason why I think they are not worth it, I propose Caelum Harab elders.

- Asynjas have lower magic path, but they got a very low chance of getting the same paths (2 air, 1 earth, 2 death).
- research necessary is the exact same (they got at best the exact same path),
- Elders are cap only but are recrutable for 270 gold instead of 35 air gem.
- Asynjas have to more HP (12 times more), but it's insignificant if mistform can be kept up.
- harab elders can be blessed, asynjas can't.
- statwise, the avantage is clearly to the Asynjas. Properly kitted however, stats can be compensated.
- harab flies but the Asynjas is stealthy.

Ok, so... assuming equal access to buffs, the only thing Asynjas got for them is their stats : most important being 2 more MR, more HP (so less dependant on mistform). Asynjas hit more often and stronger but harab can do the "clearing army" job. Other stats are irrelevant as far as army clearing is concerned, as soul vortex will do the job. Stealth and flying both have their use, let's say both are as strong.

But, they do not have the same magic path, basically making army-clearing easier for Harab elders than Asynjas. 3 things can kill harab elders : anti-SC thug / SC (which also kill Asynjas), anti-SC/thugs spells (of which most will also kill Asynjas), flying units killing before buff is done.

So... I kinda wonder what's the point. I can run basically the same analysis with Eagle kings in EA Caelum : they got awe, access from mistform and earth buff out of the box. Fomoria would just use a Fomorian King instead of Aesirs. For those nations, Aesir are kinda niche, if not just outdone, by national units.

What other nations is there around... MA Caelum might use them. Vanheim's got blood, and I do not know about the relative strength of blood summons. LA and MA Man and Eriu ? Even then you might just have a Air 3 Aesir, a path that air nation can usually recruit.

Conclusion : in my opinion, air gems are too important (cloud trapeze) to be wasted on units that might just be high HP versions of your nationals with lower magic path. Mistform takes care of HP difference, and Shishis and Roc already play that role anyway. What I would do is give them at least 2 air 1 earth to them, with a (very) low chance of getting a truly exceptional SC with 2D, something like 2 air / 1 earth / 50% AED, 10%D.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

The Asynja seems to get a lot of comments, but half of them discuss how massively OP she is and half say how she is hopelessly weak. It's hard to know what to make of the controversy. I guess the implication is that she's strong situationally - which is exactly what I'd hope for.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

After having played a bit with this mod, my conclusion is that three summons stand above the rest and warrant nerfing. The three are:

1) Asynja being the only SC that can teleport and go into hiding. It's one thing to have a 15hp thug do it, but quite another to have an 85hp titan capable of destroying entire armies or dealing with enemy SCs do it. I think a price increase is in order.

2) Grendelkin mostly because of the enormous hp value. Huge hp equals huge regeneration, which makes killing a grendelkin quite difficult. I believe that fewer grendelkins should be roaming around and recommend a price increase, especially as water gems have fewer efficient uses than most other types of gems.

3) Shishis are inexpensive units that can raid very effectively with little investment in terms of items. I like these cheap raiders, but perhaps they are too effective? How about increasing their encumbrance to 2.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

Either that, or she goes from useless to overpowered depending on the path she got. Asynjas are a 35 gem... gamble. The average price may be right, but... the useless versions are worth about 20, or even less, while the better ones might go to 50. As they are now, gambling your end game on SC which might just be useless is not fun. Especially since air gem have got reliable use.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

I can't bother to read through 40 pages of this thread. Can someone sum up the reasons why Asynjas would be considered hopelessly weak?

The last poster is far off comparing them to recruitable mages. First of all, more hp makes all the difference. Caelum or Vanheim thugs can be killed with a single shot and thus will rarely be fully equipped as that risks a lot of gems. Secondly, more regen is important as mistform is really only meaningful against pd and conventional armies. A successful magical attack pops it immediately. Other higher stats such as attack and defence are also important, especially for the anti-SC role. Finally, flying cannot be compared to stealth. Stealth is one of the most powerful unit abilities in game, so powerful, in fact, that there is no spell or item that grants it.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

The main point in my opinion is that if you do not get a variety of paths, it has NOTHING to make it efficient as an SC with equivalent HP, or to help her survive any given situation, except glamour. It does not even get some resistance to an element. So, basically, you need a complete set of item to boost it to do whatever you'd do with another SC (even a cheaper one) for a lesser cost. Depending on what you're setting her to do, a thug with 20 gem worth of equipment might do better for a fraction of the "gemcost".

I do not know why other find them weak, there may be other reasons.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

Psycho - the main argument has been something like: they're too expensive for what they do, they are basically glorified raiders, other things can raid more cheaply, they're not tough enough to use as SCs, they can be mind hunted, and "I'd rather summon shishis." I think most of that conversation was on dom3mods anyway.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released
 

Any thug, regardless of gear, is hardly better than an Asynja. Flat out, due to her good stats and base equipment, she is better (and much cheaper) than any equipped thug raiding vice.

Personally, I don't think any of the Asynja paths are useless,
-more air for a glamor unit is always good, and she has a freakish defense as it is
-earth gives options of protection buffs and more reivnigoration
-blood can be used for blood vengeance
-and the death (least useful path imo) can be used as spellcasters, wailing wind

I agree with what rdonj said, shishis are better price vice but that's because they're far too cheap for what you get.
However I wouldn't call Asynjas hopeless or bad in any situation nor are they worse than other SCs. The glamor they have + very high defense, which can also be increased, + a luck pendant makes them extremely hard to hit. Even an SC with quickness and gloves of the gladiator would have a hard time hitting her, that is if he manages to catch the Asynja.
Sure, lack of resistance can be a problem, but it's a problem for anyone.
The only SCs you can really protect from elemental damage are Tartarians anyway.
Same goes for mind hunt.

Basically, a stealthy, teleporting unit, with great stats and great base equipment that can capture 3 provinces in 2 turns and not even be intercepted by anti SCs can hardly be considered underpowered or situational, but that's just me.