Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Most AIs (may be even all) dont' have either "conditions change" or "atmosphere change" entries for mining colonies in Construction_Facilities files. That means they won't benefit from the new facility ! Other types of colonies have such an entry. Is is a bug or by design ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Oleg,

"The AI now starts with the ability to build a Planet Engineering type Facility" (True)

" The Engineering Culture to a greater degree then the Science Culture AI Players will exploit Planet Utilization sooner then all other AI Races ~Compromise" (True)

"Only Engineering Races will build Conditions Change and Atmosphere Converters on the Resource Extraction Colonies" (True)

This is by design; the Engineering Races have the advantage, here.

A compromise was made to prevent all AI Race Cultures from basically being a clone of the other. To be perceived by the Human Player opponent. That the introduction of the engineering AI Players in that game, will be a diverse Culture with a winnable AI directive in Planet Utilization.

But to deprived the other AI Races, the chance for increased Science, Construction Yard, Military, Intel and an Increased Colonial World would be too much of an advantage for the Engineering Race to have.
So yes, in the above 5 very important, non-Extraction Colonies, ALL AI Player RACES and somewhat the neutral Zyanaras, may build Atmosphere Converters and Conditions Change http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

~~~
However, as I stated, this was tested Last winter for AIC and it was determined to be an advantage that the Human Player may find difficult to overcome. Now, that the AI has been toned down for None and Low Bonus games, this now may become a good fit, for the AI in AIC.

[ June 20, 2003, 19:44: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

I see. But my impression has always been been you want to anthroporise(sp ???) AI as much as possible. Certainly, given enough time and resources, humans will Atm.Convert every single moon in sight. AI should be able to do the same. Thus, my idea about such facility is to reserverve the planetary space for further upgrade. I like (very much like !) your idea to give more personality to AI. However, I believe it can be better done by tweaking AI_research files, moving planetary utilization up or down, then rendering some AI planets completely "unconvertable". Exclusion of certain AI planet types from "convertable" type would surely lead to this !

[ June 20, 2003, 20:45: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Greek word (Anthropo~) the philosophy of humanity.

I understand your point.

We must agree, that all the AI now have an additional advantage then they had in the Past.

Agreed, the Research files are currently set to the different AI races with Planet Utilization at various levels, already, to reflect this diversity, now in AIC.

However, in the end if all the Races had Atmospheric ConVersion on the Resource Extraction Colonies, then the results would be Identical in total, for all races, and how is this "Human Like" , if all follow the same path.

Non-aggressive Paths:
As High-level Stellar Manipulations is to the AI Science Races.

As High-level Resource Scanners is to the AI Worker Race.

As High-level cargo and/or Resupply is to the AI Merchant Race.

Atmospheric ConVersion exclusive on Resource Extraction could be for the AI Engineering race.

What is desired is that the end product would be a diverse Play Style, for each AI Player in AI Campaign.

For example, the Fazrah have Bio Weapons, this has NO effect on the other AI Players at all, and places the Fazrah at a distinct disadvantage versus the other AI Players.
This does however have a serious impact on the Human Players decision-making, if confronted by this Bio Weapon threat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Yet, if all AI players had Bio Weapons, then sure there would be a balance amongst the individual AI, but no diversity; in the perspicacity http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif of the Human Players.

Please, give it a test run, as is, and let me know what you think, at turn 500 plus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If the Serine-Engineers of the Toltayan and Praetorian races are present in your game, you will be able to follow there progression as compared to other races.

And we can always tweak for the next Version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 20, 2003, 22:43: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is so true about the Fazrah. This race annihilated my best planet, with a Bio Weapon. From now on, I take the Race description and history more serious.

I like the fact that the each AI has an individual personality in AI Campaign, and this is just one of AIC’s best features http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

How fast AI research colonization techs ? Low bonus, all points connected game. I ask it because I faced an interesting situation in my Last game. I play Gas Giants. 4 system away there is a nice system with 3 breathable gas giants (methane). The game turn is 60. Colony Ship will take 22 turns to reach it. There is no resupply points en route and the path goes through two systems with Xi'Chung fleets. We are at war. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
Obviously, I must assemble powerfull convoy to get colony ships through. But I am afraid Xi'Chung can research gas colonization and claim planets before me ! In any case, it will be a colossal expedition. I never attempted anything like this before http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Good topic to discuss, Oleg

Technically, the XiChung does not research Gas Giant Colonization accept if you are Playing a No Warp Game or the XiChung is currently disconnected in your game, I assume both are not the case.

It is also probable the XiChung was awarded Gas Giant Colonization thru an Anciant Ruin; in your current "game turn 60" game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

=========

Please Note ... in AIC, the AI has the Ability to acquire other type Colonization with out research, as Human Players do, thru Trade offer.

As many Players should agree, as a Human Player. Receiving a Colonizer Tech from most, if not ANY AI Players is so, too simple. Agreed? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Since AIC’s initial release, I have had the AI Player programmed in AI Campaign, also to receive their Colonizer techs as well, in an ambiguous (TRADED) fashion. With AIC the AI Player will receive a free Colonizer tech and all at a point of time in your standard warp game, for each specific planet type Race. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

For example:
The Gas Races will receive 2nd ability to colonize a Rock Type Planets, in about the first 25-30% of their evolution.

The Ice Races will receive 2nd ability to colonize a Rock Type Planets, in about the first 30-40% of their evolution.

The Rock Race will receive 2nd ability to colonize Ice Type Planets, in about the first 40 to 45% of their evolution.

All Races will have the 3rd and Final Colonizer type about 50 to 65 % of their evolution process.

Please note: The more AI Bonus you give, the faster the AI will evolve http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
In a No Warp game, most AI have to research at least one Colonizer Type , this may change to (ALL) in No Warp games in the final AIC release http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 21, 2003, 14:52: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Hmmm, let us take a look at the Component.txt files and compare.

AI Campaign was released in February 2003. And the Component.txt File programming that you described JLS, as you can see is basically IDENTICAL to the same tie in Programming, you JLS designed for AIC, that is used, and is the backbone of the Colonization – Primitive Natives by Colony Tech Mod created by EKolis and his release date of April 23, 2003 and used in various MODs like Adamant and the MOD General Woundwort is hammering out right now

I am surprised EKolis or Fryon has made no Honorable Mention of you, JLS, since this is your programming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Sweet update, JLS. I started a game the other day with AI having a Low Bonus, and I am having the time of my live… Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

The programming used by EKolis is extremely similar to AIC in most aspects of the RacialTrait, Tech Area, and Component File, and yes, it may or may not have, inspired him to adapt the programming to the Colony Mod.

I don’t see a problem here? GLV.
Except for the one, you are about to create http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

EDIT:
I also would like to say, that the Colony Mod is a good tool to balance some MODS, and certainly is a fine contribution to se4 gaming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In regards to AIC Specific Programming Concepts, emulation is the best form of flattery http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
A fine example of this, is the emulation of PvKs Proportions as the se4 vehicle, for the concepts and abilities I have programmed into AI Campaign for the AI and Human Players over the past year. In addition, I have thanked PvK on many occasions for his help in this process and thru the Data Files them self http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Actually, AIC has grown, thanks to the input and suggestions of all and they are mentioned in the History file, you being one of many GLV http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

=

Glad to here you are enjoying the update http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
from time to time, let me know how your game is doing.

[ June 21, 2003, 16:40: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Hmmm, I can see AIC' AI has been deliberately toned down in one aspect or another. I was thinking about making my own AI (whink, whink... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) But I am afraid if I use the whole AIC potential, it would be way too strong. So, what are the house rules I should follow making a new AI ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Wow, thanks Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

There are a few basic Parameters that would be for a Specific, Race Culture, Demeanor, and some Specific Traits. As this would relate to all AI files. Whether it is the Construction, Anger, or even the Political File.

Some general Examples:
Colonizers of 2 in the explore state are balanced to some degree with Human Expansion with the Aggressive Race only, getting an extra.

The AI Early Combat Ship Construction for AI Attack/Incursion or Defend States must be on Par with a determined Human Players Ship Production (Initial Numbers, not replacement rate), if he or she needs or wants to Defend or attack.
If a stalemate is reached on average , then you have achieved a good balance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As you can see, we can have the AI Player in AI Campaign, jump thru hoops and pull off miracles in most if not all areas of Space Empires, but the most important thing is to keep a balance, and to keep the Human Player on his best game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

When it comes to the AI Design, it will not be how it competes with other AI Players but how this new AI’s Personality will interact with the Human Player. Of course, if one AI is too dominant, then it must be toned down, as was the Eee Race, in this Last release.


Oleg, for me to be more specific on the basic Parameters, I would need to know your AIs Race, Culture, Demeanor, and Specific Traits, that you have in mind for your AI?

[ June 21, 2003, 23:05: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

It is my opinion, a race will be measured not in how many ships it can make, or whether it can do something fantastic.
What will be the measure, is in the way it conforms to the personality you assign it for the overall descriptions: Race, Culture, Demeanor, and Specific Traits, as this AI Player acts out its part in the game.

In other words, it is very easy to develop a Psycho Race, but the draw back is that this AI MUST engage in hostile actions for the most part with every body.
So I would say we do not need any more Psycho Races or Extreme Violent Races.

With your enthusiasm in Atmosphere Converters and Planet Utilization, Oleg. A Neutral to Honorable, even a Xenophobic Engineering Race would be a Challenge for you and this would fit nicely to the existing races.

Either way, it would be appreciated if we play test your race for over all balance prior to its General Release as I did with GLVs and QBs AI Races.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 21, 2003, 18:01: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">JLS, speaking of no warp games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Most the AI Players seems a little aggressive opening up warps, now in No Warp Games when I give them a Low bonus.

What are your planes for future AI Campaign Versions?

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would have much preferred a Psychic AI Race to design. But I think, we did very well with the Sallega Empire that happen to be Neutral, Politicians and I can relate to that, what do you think, JLS.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS,

One of these days I promise to make a post within this topic that doesn't involve something I find in your mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If you look at the facility.txt file and the Engineering Settlement facility you will notice that there is a period after this name, and was just wondering whether this would cause an error?

SunDevil

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS,

Another question. For the Atmospheric Modification Plants, aren't the time tables for those to be set at in years. So 10 = 1 game year, and 40 = 4 game years. If so the comments for these facilities do not match the value set. For instance in Atmospheric Modification Plant I you have the comment that this should take 4 years but the value is to 25 which should mean 2.5 game years or 25 turns, right?

SunDevil

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS,

Another question. In the AI folder, you have the default ai_settings with 1,000,000 in research and intelligence resource generation, but in the aggressive, neutral, and defensive ai folders you have their ai_settings in research and intelligence set to only 100,000. I was just wondering if this was on purpose and if so, why?

SunDevil

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS,

Last question, I couldn't find this mentioned anywhere, but was just wondering what changes were made to the techarea.txt file, since it has a timestamp of 6/19. Thanks.

SunDevil

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do not worry about anything, SunDevil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
As far as I am concerned, you are one of the best AIC beta Testers, and you know your stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

1:
Not a problem, I had the period there for a marker only during testing; it may be removed on the next Version for that settlement.
If you noticed, I have always used the Period, Comma or this thing * as a test Marker.
Please also refer to the AI Resupply depot.

2:
Yes, you are right, you will receive the actual Atmosphere change, about 30% sooner then you may think, after the facility is completed; in this release. However, shush, do not tell anyone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

3:
No particular reason to speak of, I decided to go with the se4 defaults here. If you notice, the Neutrals are also at the same defaults, but I may change Nultoh and Zyanaras settings prior to the Final Release http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

4:
It may have been either Weapons Platforms or Satellites starting Raise Level tech count , in a Medium tech game. The AI relies on the quantity not the quality of these two defenses, early in the game. Changing (x) to Zero should not break an existing game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
When the AI researches a good solid weapon along with the a fair combat sensor, that is when we should allow the AI to go into the High Quality but very time consuming to build; Medium and Large Satellite and Planetary Weapons Platform http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 21, 2003, 23:12: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You made a real good Race design with the Sallega Empire, QB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I know that is what we want, but it does get annoying sometimes, with all the incoming diplomatic Messages, from that race http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
--------------------
You always like the No Bonus games any way, QB. Your game will have a steadier growth that way.
How did your High Tech, No Warp game go, by the way? Or was that the game the Fazrah slimed you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Regarding future AIC Versions, in a few weeks, the Final release will be DONE.
There should be a few surprises in that one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 21, 2003, 21:26: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS,

The only reason why I mentioned the research and intelligence max resource points, is for two reasons.

1. I like to play with technology cost set to high which until now, didn't realize how much the ai gets hamstrung towards the middle/late part of the game when they can only put out either 100,000 research points for some races and others can put out 1,000,000 research points.

2. With your additions of having cities, and numerous variations of population centers which each can generate a lot of research and intelligence points it just seems that the ai could potentially reseach topics faster and have a wider supply of intelligence points to defend itself against other race's intel attacks.

Just my .02 cents. It is really cool to see this mod change and get better with each new Version, great job.

SunDevil

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

And a good two cents at that, consider your advise taken http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I want to make a race that likes BIG GUNS. Default weapon will be Antimatter/Quantum torpedos. Also, to have BIG guns, the race will research and build BIG ships earlier than other races. I was thinking of using Crystalline trait but then realised that Cruiser with 3-4 crystall armor and armor plating (invulnerable to normal damege up to 50 !!) will be too tough in early game.

I also have a question about small anti-matter torpedos. It looks like an almost useless weapon ! size 11, reload 4, damage 40. One would be better of with small APB - it has double damage to shields at least or with armor skipping rocket pods. Small AMT also has -60 to -40 weapon modifier ! Worst fighter weapon IMHO. Let make it reload time of 3 !

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I want to make a race that likes BIG GUNS. Default weapon will be Antimatter/Quantum torpedos. Also, to have BIG guns, the race will research and build BIG ships earlier than other races. I was thinking of using Crystalline trait but then realised that Cruiser with 3-4 crystall armor and armor plating (invulnerable to normal damege up to 50 !!) will be too tough in early game.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree, the Antimatter/Quantum torpedoes Values is a fine choice as a Big Gun at Torpedo Weapons tech 6+

If I understand you correctly, Oleg. You want to have a Crystalline Race. With a Big Gun of Antimatter/Quantum torpedoes, why not the Crystalline Weapons?

As the AI or Human Player this would take an Extremely Long time to Research all the Techs you suggest:

Quantum Torpedo
Emissive Armor Plate V
Cruiser Hull
Crystalline Armor III
Crystalline Weapons V
And a reasonable Shield and Sensors.

As a Human Player Strategy, the extreame Cost of Plate, will reduce your Fleet Size.

Most AI designs in AIC do not Exceed Emissive Armor Plate III, and this tends to ware thin on their Maintenance.
In some games, it actually will send the Terran AI into a tailspin, sometime even before he looses a few Mineral Planets

At this time the AI, does not Research Advanced Design Engineering It will be reflected as a Human Player only Tech, in the next Version.

I suggest, you use an existing AIC race as a template, for the AI you are Constructing.

Please, EMail me your AI Folder, when you are completed and we will give it a test drive, before general release http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Sullivan_JohnL@msn.com

---------------------------------------

Name := Crystalline Armor III
Description := Crystal lattice armor used to protect a ship from physical damage.
Pic Num := 191
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 150
Cost Minerals := 70
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 70
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 34
Roman Numeral := 3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Crystalline Technology
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Armor
Ability 1 Descr := Is damaged before any other components on a ship.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Shield Generation From Damage
Ability 2 Descr := 15 points of damage per hit will be channeled into the shields.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 15
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Ultra Armor Plating II
Description := Heavy external armor plating covering the entire hull, which reduces the damage of every hit from most weapon types. (Use a scale mount.)
Pic Num := 309
Tonnage Space Taken := 500
Tonnage Structure := 2650
Cost Minerals := 30000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 2910
Roman Numeral := 2
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Armor
Tech Level Req 1 := 8
Tech Area Req 2 := Advanced Design Engineering
Tech Level Req 2 := 3
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Drop Troops
Ability 1 Descr :=
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Deflects 15 damage per hit.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 15
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Emissive Armor Plate V
Description := A composite armored shell which absorbs energy and radiates it back into space. (Use a scale mount.)
Pic Num := 30
Tonnage Space Taken := 200
Tonnage Structure := 1400
Cost Minerals := 9000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 2000
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 1045
Roman Numeral := 5
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Armor
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Tech Area Req 2 := Physics
Tech Level Req 2 := 2
Tech Area Req 3 := Emissive Armor
Tech Level Req 3 := 5
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 1 Descr := Negates any damage of 35 or less.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 35
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Is damaged before any other components on a ship.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

[ June 22, 2003, 15:45: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks, Oleg. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Lets take a look at it, for the next Version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 22, 2003, 18:12: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS,

I have a question for you. Right now the ai races don't seem to be able to build to much infrastructure on their planets. Here are two examples that if you could explain I would appreciate it.

AI_Construction_Facilities.txt

1.
AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term), Not Connected
Construction Queue Type := Mining Colony
Num Queue Entries := 14
Facility 1 Ability := Supply Generation
Facility 1 Amount := 1
Facility 2 Ability := Movement Bonus
Facility 2 Amount := 2
Facility 3 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier System - Minerals
Facility 3 Amount := 1
Facility 4 Ability := Modify Reproduction - System
Facility 4 Amount := 1
Facility 5 Ability := Change Population - System
Facility 5 Amount := 1
Facility 6 Ability := Shield Modifier - System
Facility 6 Amount := 1
Facility 7 Ability := Planet Value Change - System
Facility 7 Amount := 1
Facility 8 Ability := Reduced Maintenance Cost - System
Facility 8 Amount := 1
Facility 9 Ability := Combat Modifier - System
Facility 9 Amount := 1
Facility 10 Ability := Ship Bridge
Facility 10 Amount := 1
Facility 11 Ability := Movement Bonus
Facility 11 Amount := 5
Facility 12 Ability := Component Destroyed On Use
Facility 12 Amount := 1
Facility 13 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier Planet - Minerals
Facility 13 Amount := 1
Facility 14 Ability := Movement Bonus
Facility 14 Amount := 100

***What is the point in putting in Movement Bonus abilities to a construction queue. And how many actual mining facilities will be built? Where are the mineral storage facilities which even though the ai has low mineral costs for ship building, the actual facilites themselves are quite expensive to build. And I don't see where the ai would build towns, cities any of the other multi use structures you have added to the mod. Can the ai build these?
2.
AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term), Not Connected
Construction Queue Type := Farming Colony
Num Queue Entries := 15
Facility 1 Ability := Supply Generation
Facility 1 Amount := 1
Facility 2 Ability := Quantum Reactor
Facility 2 Amount := 2
Facility 3 Ability := Combat Modifier - System
Facility 3 Amount := 1
Facility 4 Ability := Planet Conditions Change - System
Facility 4 Amount := 1
Facility 5 Ability := Planet Value Change - System
Facility 5 Amount := 1
Facility 6 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier System - Organics
Facility 6 Amount := 1
Facility 7 Ability := Modify Reproduction - System
Facility 7 Amount := 1
Facility 8 Ability := Change Population - System
Facility 8 Amount := 1
Facility 9 Ability := Shield Modifier - System
Facility 9 Amount := 1
Facility 10 Ability := Reduced Maintenance Cost - System
Facility 10 Amount := 1
Facility 11 Ability := Ship Bridge
Facility 11 Amount := 1
Facility 12 Ability := Quantum Reactor
Facility 12 Amount := 5
Facility 13 Ability := Component Destroyed On Use
Facility 13 Amount := 1
Facility 14 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier Planet - Organics
Facility 14 Amount := 1
Facility 15 Ability := Quantum Reactor
Facility 15 Amount := 100

***What is the point in having the Quantum Reactor ability added to the construction facility queue or a ship bridge ability.

Now the only reason why I am bringing this topic up is that the ai has a very hard time in keeping up in production of resources, intel, research points, and population growth. In my games that I have played I am always in first place in the score window, and the ai players are usually far behind in scores. When I check the ai building queues they are usually empty and not building anything, even though they have room on the planet for more facilities. I have also checked the TDM-modpack and looked at the those ai races ai_facilities_construction file and especially the EarthAlliance made by Mephisto and I don't see any weird abilities added to the files, and I just don't see how the way these files are setup in your mod how they are suppose to provide the ai a chance to compete in regards to infrastructure.

This is your mod and you definitely know more about what is going on then I do, but if you could please explain your logic behind this file I would appreciate it. Thanks for your time.

SunDevil

P.S. Here is a sample of the EarthAlliance facility build queue.

***EarthAlliance - Ai construction facility.txt file, created by Mephisto all rights reseverd.
***
AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term), Not Connected
Construction Queue Type := Mining Colony
Num Queue Entries := 16
Facility 1 Ability := Planet - Change Atmosphere
Facility 1 Amount := 1
Facility 2 Ability := Resource Generation - Minerals
Facility 2 Amount := 1
Facility 3 Ability := Supply Generation
Facility 3 Amount := 1
Facility 4 Ability := Spaceport
Facility 4 Amount := 1
Facility 5 Ability := Resource Generation - Minerals
Facility 5 Amount := 3
Facility 6 Ability := Point Generation - Research
Facility 6 Amount := 1
Facility 7 Ability := Space Yard
Facility 7 Amount := 1
Facility 8 Ability := Resource Generation - Minerals
Facility 8 Amount := 4
Facility 9 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier System - Minerals
Facility 9 Amount := 1
Facility 10 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier Planet - Minerals
Facility 10 Amount := 1
Facility 11 Ability := Planet - Change Minerals Value
Facility 11 Amount := 1
Facility 12 Ability := Resource Generation - Minerals
Facility 12 Amount := 6
Facility 13 Ability := Resource Storage - Mineral
Facility 13 Amount := 1
Facility 14 Ability := Resource Storage - Radioactives
Facility 14 Amount := 1
Facility 15 Ability := Resource Storage - Organics
Facility 15 Amount := 1
Facility 16 Ability := Resource Generation - Minerals
Facility 16 Amount := 100

[ June 23, 2003, 03:37: Message edited by: SunDevil ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS or oleg could answer this more fully.

Until then, when you find something like movement bonus for construction facilities in AIC, I recommend going to the data directory and searching Facility.txt. If you do, you will see for example that the mining type components all have the movement bonus ability.

I was first puzzled by ship components in Design Creation with the Ancient Ruins ability until I looked into components.txt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A lot of this is in proportions also, and it is a brilliant use of these meaningless abilities to make the AI better and more flexible.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

About fighter weapons:

I do not like the long reload times for weapons such as small rocket pods. Just watch closer the combat reply with fighters. Typical situation: fighter group fires and have 7 turns to reload. During this time, it run away. Once it has ready weapons it turns back. But now it several turns away from enemy ships ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif It must spend several combat turns to come to close range http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I estimate the actual firing rate to be 9-10 turns. Only in big fleet battles fighters can close in to some enemy ship faster. I think fighters shuld have faster firing rate. They look silly flying back and forth under PDC fire.

Here is a curious situation from my game that prompted me to write this post :
I attack the moderate enemy fleet (about 10 frigates ) with 3 carriers (transport hulls). My fighters are armed with small rocket pods. Battle layout : enemy at the center, my ships on the east. They launch fighters and run away. Fighters fly to west, enemy advance toward carriers. Somewhere in the middle fighters encounter ships, fire their weapons and fly away to reload. They fly to WEST, while enemy ships continue to go to EAST. When fighters reload and turn back, they are dozens of sectors away ! With speed advantage of only 2, such stern chase is hopeless !! It took them 15 turns to catch up enemy ships. And only because they got to the edge of the map and killed my helpless carriers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Overall, during the battle fighters fired only TWICE ! If they had weaker weapons but reasonable rate, I would won...

I suggest to make the reload time 4 and shave 5 points of damage.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good mourning, SunDevil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As far as I can see, you have been playing AIC for a few months, now.
You are a very astute, and knowledgeable se4 and one of the finest and most critical fans AIC has, and I thank you for this. Now, clearly in the Last few months you would of noticed and indicated to all of us here, if there was a lapse in all the AI players Construction goals.

However, I have been out with the flu most of Last week and this past weekend, so I am behind in the follow-up beta testing of AIC v3.02 myself, and with:

AI players Atmospheric Converters just in Beta
AI Troops vs. Human Troops are in Beta
AI Psychic Intel File coming out of Beta

You may be on to something, although I have not herd from the others in regards to any major bugs as of yet.

I am happy to here you are ahead of the AI in the games you play, most players can not achieve this so soon, in most standard AI Low bonus games; until the reach a few hundred; even some games Lasting to 500 turns before the are in the top 3. In addition, there may be a few games they are defeated or the Human Player just may resigns.

In regards to TDM, I have always said, in my opinion would be one of the most difficult mods to program the AI successfully. This is due, to the primary fact that everything they achieved is from good stock, and unmodified as it relates to the Original se4 files and I do believe the TDM team has done a fantastic job. Moreover, TDM fully deserve all the accolades they have achieved over the years.

In regards to AI Campaign, well, it is not even finished and yes, still going thru the growing pains that any project will experience, and if not for the input of yourself SunDevil and you GLV, as well as others; AIC would not be half the mod; I expect it to become, when WE all are finished, wouldn’t you say http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 23, 2003, 15:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Grand Lord Vito,

Thanks for your response, but you didn't answer any of my questions. Yes, I have modified the AIC mod, but since you don't have a clue on what I have added or changed there would be no reason bring this into the discussion. I don't have a problem this time, I just wanted someone who had experience with this mod to look at the three facility build queues and tell me why with the abilities added like movement bonus and quantum reactor the ai will build more facilities and what facilities would be built.

What I did not ask for was a defence of how good this game is on the ai bonus levels. I don't care, because as you pointed out I have changed the mod. So if you have any modding experience and can contribute to my post in a productive way then please I would like to hear your opinion, if not then save your advertisements of how good the ai is on what bonus levels for someone else, because I will never ask anyone who has contributed to this mod how good it is, because I already know.

SunDevil

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I am more then happy to make compromises, however most players, have no problem with the AIC Fighter system, as is.

I will need to ask, what was your Propulsion level and what was that of your recent opponent?

Oleg, any save games you may have, along with the corresponding saved Empire File, would be very beneficial, in this decision process.

I also will need to know the Version and whether it is v3.02Complete or just the upgrade and if there has been any modifications.

Sullivan_JohnL@msn.com

====

Do you make escort fighters and pure Interceptors with your own Fighter Attack strategy?
As you notice, the AI Players all have there own Fighter Strategy on S-Fighters that will by-pass your ships, planets and bases initially, and go right for your Fighters. You must counter this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you are just making basic fighters, with the standard (Optimal Range) or even some other standard strategies, you will be at a disadvantage, against the AI.

If you are adding Torpedo designs, as it states, this is just for Anti-Ship and will be of little value, against the AIs fighters I suspect you know this. General FYI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As a player, you must also choose the value of the equipment to be loaded on your fighter design and if a Armed Cockpit or Unarmed Cockpit is the best choice for that design and the strategy that would be best used.

Until, I have more information about your total situation, I really do not foresee that many changes in the AIC fighter system or its Tactical and Strategic Fighter Module.

[ June 23, 2003, 15:17: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OK, AIC and Proportions use bogus abilitites for the very simple reason. Here is why: for example, you want AI to build reseacrh lab. If you use "research generation" in construction file, it will pickup the facility with highst level of it. Unfortunately, it is Cultural Center ! AI will try to build it - for eternity. To make AI use cheaper facilities, PvK assigned to them some bogus abilities, like "movement generation" and use them in construction file. I urge you to look through facilities.txt file and compare bogus abilities assigned to different buildings and compare them with construction.txt files. The end result is the same build up as one would expect for normal (TDM for example) race !

------
Oh, why are you so jumpy ? Grand lord Vitto made a perfectly normal and constructive responce.

[ June 23, 2003, 15:48: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS, I don't have that save game anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
It was about turn 50, both me and AI used ionic engines, everything was pretty basic stuff. Yes, I used purely anti-ship fighters since that particular AI (Cryslonite) did not have fighters yet. I am still fuming about my silly fighters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Oh, it is of course purely strategic combat issue. If I used tactical combat, it would never happened of course. I would keep fighters not too far from enemy while they reload.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Colony tech, trading that could go on in PBW games, may upset the Balance of Power in that game, however, I guess this could be said, for most key techs, to a less of a degree.

The Players are encouraged to trade with others, when playing AI Campaign, and most of all, especially with the AI Players. Actually your AI trades, may become the best way to victory.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am sorry SunDevil, I thought that Cybersol answered this perfectly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Therefore, I only answered the parts that Cybersol, did not address.

=

AFAIK, the tag idea, was originated by PvK, for the Proportion Mod. available here on the Forum.
The AI loads Culture Centers and Cities that generates Resources, Research, Intelligence Production, as well as several other neat things.

Now if we ask the AI, for example to build: (Resource Generation – Minerals) the AI would think the Cultural or a large city would be the best facility, and this would require a longer build time, then the basic Mining Facility we origonaly wanted.

Please refer to the AIC Facility file.
The tag of (Movement Bonus) is attached as you can see to the Mining Expedition, Mining Settlement, Mining Colony, as well as the Mining Complex may be properly constructed by the AI, depending on your levels of extraction.

With Quantum Reactor tag, this as you can see will instruct the AI to construct the Farming Settlement, Farming Colony, or the Farming Center, depending on you levels of extraction.

===

As this applies to, “towns, cities any of the other multi use structures”.

The way AIC is programmed. The AI will start you with the correct amount of individual Racial Population Centers/Cultural Centers, when you start your AI Campaign game. This is done because there is an Individual AIC Racial Construction Trait, for every Race even a dual Races that you may choose, as you will notice in both your AIC RacialTraits and TechArea File.

The AI will not build or replace your Starting Cultural Centers in AIC. Instead, the AI player will build one or two tiny Settlements on most of the Colonies, early in the game.
Please refer to the (Component Destroyed On Use tag) in the Facility File.

These AI Player Settlements will evolve, in sequence as your game Progresses. For Example:

Settlements
Communities
Towns
Cities
Metropolis
World Cultural Center - This would be more then the equivalent of the Starting Population Center.

Also Please note:
In each AIC AI folder, in the AI_Construction_Facilities file, you will Find both the:
Construction Queue Type := Homeworld
Construction Queue Type := Resupply Base

The Homeworld may Replace lost Population Centers here, however, they will be in the form evolving Settlements, as explained above.

The Resupply Base Colony, is actually the Colonial World for the AI Player and in with this Planet the AI, if lucky, will build the Utopia of Worlds, as would you, if you had a:

Minimum Planet Size for Type := Large
Mineral Value := 101
Organics Value := 101
Radioactives Value := 101

The above entree will be found in your AIC, AI PLANET TYPES DATA FILE, which very well may be one of the most important AI files in AI Campaign http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I hope all your questions have been answered, SunDevil

Reference:
However please do not be confused, and think that this tag, in any way; will give the AI Player or Human Player any Special Abilities. It does not.

================================================== ===========
ABILITIES DATA FILE ~AIC v2~ Proportions Mod by PvK/~AIC Modeled by JLS
================================================== ============

Warp Point - Turbulence
Value1 = Amount of damage done to objects moving through this warp point. (Normal Damage)
Value2 =
(PvK: Used as AI tag for efficient engines.)

Star - Unstable
Value1 = Chance that sun will explode each year.
Value2 =
(PvK: Used as AI tag for regular cargo storage.)

Sector - Sensor Interference
Value1 = Modifier subtracted from to-hit rolls
Value2 =
(PvK: Used as AI tag for Religious Talisman.)

Resource Generation - Minerals
Value1 = Amount of minerals generated per turn.
Value2 =
(JLS: Used as AI tag for Sensor Level.)

Resource Generation - Radioactives
Value1 = Amount of radioactives generated per turn.
Value2 =
(JLS: Used as AI tag Planetary Weapons used for AI Balance for fighters and BC ships and up.)

Planet - Change Ground Defense
Value1 = Percentage modifier to ground combat on this planet.
Value2 =
(PvK: Used as AI tag for ECM.)

Planet - Shield Generation
Value1 = Amount of shields generated.
Value2 =
(PvK: Used as AI tag for regular armor.)

Drop Troops
Value1 = Number of troops which can be dropped to attack a planet.
Value2 =
(PvK: Used as AI tag for armor plating.)

Ancient Ruins
Value1 = Number of techs areas (random) received when this planet is colonized.
Value2 =
(PvK: Used as AI tag for base / weapon platform non-fire-control-center combat sensors.)

[ June 23, 2003, 22:23: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS, Did you get my E-mail? any Ideas?

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Yes, I did, Mottlee...

And thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I like the way you set up your Race, and this is one neat map you made http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I am now preparing a file to send you. If you can help out with this, I would greatly appreciate it.

I have seen your keen abilities to lay MINES against the AI Player in both the Proportions Files I helped you with and the AIC files you sent me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Because of this, I think you are just the man to help me balance the AI Mine Sweeping abilities in AIC, to help keep the AI on track.

Are you game, for it?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 23, 2003, 19:21: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Sure, I will give it a go, the map was computer made and was/is a real pisser too like about turn 8 had contact.
Just tell me what you want meb to look for and will help out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That has been in use for much longer than Proportions has been around, actually.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I will accept that challenge. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 23, 2003, 22:50: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please post savegames as your game progress. I would be most curios. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Or, use simultaneous turns, SE has a trouble loading heavy population units (like in AIC and Proportions) onto population transports in Classic Turns games.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Huh? I have never noticed a problem with that. Are you talking about the AIs, or what?

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fryon, the trick is to start on your, name sakes System, you can't lose. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 23, 2003, 23:19: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks, mottlee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I will have the folder in your mail, in the morning.

Take your time, Thanks again

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please post savegames as your game progress. I would be most curios. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Or, use simultaneous turns, SE has a trouble loading heavy population units (like in AIC and Proportions) onto population transports in Classic Turns games.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fryon,
How does this sound for a game set up.
AIC v3.02 Complete.

2000 pt Game + any Mp up to a total 1k Bonus totals 3000 for you and 2000 for the AI.

All Starting defaults should be fine.
With ANY and ALL (non AI, Nue Only) Free Option Traits you think you may need:

Name := Opt 1
Description := Human Player - advantage Results in: Better Home World.
Pic Num := 0
General Type := Advantage
Cost := 0
Trait Type := Planet Storage Space
Value 1 :=15

Name := Opt 2
Description := Human Player - advantage Results in: Higher Proportions of Resources (not recomended for Finite Games).
Pic Num := 0
General Type := Advantage
Cost := 0
Trait Type := Production
Value 1 := 200
Value 2 := 0

To include any or all Multiplayer Handicap 1-3 = 1000 free bonus points, if you wish.

Name := MP Level 1 Ladder Handicap
Description := Handicaping for Players. (Host assigned)
Pic Num := 0
General Type := Advantage
Cost := -200
Trait Type := Tech Area
Value 1 := 7
Value 2 := 0

Name := MP Level 2 Ladder Handicap
Description := Handicaping for Players (Host assigned)
Pic Num := 0
General Type := Advantage
Cost := -300
Trait Type := Tech Area
Value 1 := 7
Value 2 := 0

Name := MP Level 3 Ladder Handicap
Description := Handicaping for Players. (Host assigned)
Pic Num := 0
General Type := Advantage
Cost := -500
Trait Type := Tech Area
Value 1 := 7
Value 2 := 0
=1000 Bonus Points

I recommend you choose a Dual Class Race.
For the added Pop Centers Bonuses http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

However, please play with out Strategic Fighters Hulls.

Absolutely restart, if you get a terrible Starting map.

Please play in simultaneous turns mode with High Bonus with at least 5 or more AI players (the more Violent the better) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
and any neutrals are up to you.

Please include your early Empire File with your Save.

What would be the Victory Conditions you would like to set?

Above all, lets have fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I also will PM this post to you.

[ June 24, 2003, 00:25: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Huh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Huh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif He hasn't a clue, on what was meant. Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ June 24, 2003, 00:38: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">JLS, why isn’t it good to trade colonizer tech and why do you allow Colonizer Tech Trades in AIC?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As we recall, SunDevel, Last time you had a problem, you modified the AIC data files http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I challenge any one to tap into AIC top 3-5 leading AI in your game at any point in the game from turn 50 to 2000 and you will see the AI with a surplus in resources http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyone that has played AIC will tell you, that at low AI bonus with the default starts and even after JLS has tamed the AI since the initial release the AI is still a very tough challenge.

At Medium AI Bonus, I doubt you can even beat the AI unless you have the ultimate start with some or all the easy options and MP handy caps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I know this SunDevil at High Bonus there is no way you can beat the AI, in AIC with any size default maps and with at least 5 real AI Players, in solitaire.

[ June 23, 2003, 13:14: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Obviously... care to enlighten him?

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What is a Dual Class Race?