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Re: Babylon 5 Mod
Wow, post #4200, I almost wasted it on someone else...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif [ June 04, 2004, 11:18: Message edited by: Timstone ] |
Re: Babylon 5 Mod
70 megs!!!! Good GOD!
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but there's no manual or guide or something like that out?
for example: i have left some techtrees i can research, but i get no reward (that means, i'm researching "nothing"....) and still some other thinks im wondering 'bout Sure, this mod isn't complete, i know, but a small manual would be nice.... say. which races are at the moment playable, which techtrees and which options do i have to activate to play a working game? How do i set up a ship that's fast in the frist rounds. Why does'nt the "wormhole generator" work? etc. |
Re: Babylon 5 Mod
The map in question comes from the B5 Total ConVersion project for Freespace 2, but I cannot tell if it was made for the project or if it comes from a fan site.
I am not sure how developed this project is for the moment being either, as it has been some months since I Last dabbled in Freespace 2 and its mods. Now back to your regular programs, and forgive me for this interruption. |
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how does one get the jumpgates to have enough movement in order to work properly, so far I have not been able to get one to work at all.
[ June 06, 2004, 04:04: Message edited by: The One ] |
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I've played around with the game and if you add the "Agile Ship" (?) component (it has the solar sail image) you can get it to move. Of course i can't quite remember how far up the tech tree this is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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This may help, but you have to search as the info is not all in one place. There is a list or table of Stars from the show in:- Appendix:Table of interesting stars Follow Astronomy, then Appendix: [ June 06, 2004, 15:01: Message edited by: Nomor ] |
Re: Babylon 5 Mod
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ... Delete me.
[ June 06, 2004, 14:58: Message edited by: Nomor ] |
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there are components which give a specific bonus movement ability. To work, you have to have at least one "regular" engine, or else the "bonus" wont be applied. Try adding one conventional engine and it SHOULD work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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i build a "mobile space yard" and constructed the wormhole generator direct in space.
It was outside the range of any planet, it got a 20 000 resuply generator and nevertheless it was unable to open a wormhole. I got the "Create wormhole" dialogue, the action was added into the queue but the wormhole never was established ;-( |
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next question and please forgive me
but, what does "unexpended MP" mean? in special, i dunno the shrotcut of "MP" |
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Movement Point. Stellar manipulation requires that you have a movement point to expend during the procedure. Thus, it does not work, at all, on bases. They can not have any (non-combat) movement.
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Mod the hull to have a built in movement point, like the stellar manipulation barge in devnull. Moves 1 sector per turn. That should be good enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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but that means that the "Jumpgate" ship design i found in this mod is.....worthless at the moment?
I mean, i can only use it if i edit the file to add a movement point, but not before? *mhm* Sorry for my english.....hihi but i lack the experience and vocables.... |
Re: Babylon 5 Mod
Actually it was just a suggestion for the modmakers, but try it if you want http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: Babylon 5 Mod
Hey guys, I tried to read this entire thread from the start and fell short around page 200.
Anyway. So far, great job on this. I recently got into modding myself, and am a huge fan of Babylon 5, so if you need any help let me know. Probably the biggest thing that's been problematic during play is the lack of ability descriptions, especially on facilities. So I don't mind going through the file and putting those descriptions in if you can't think of anything else that needs doing? Let me know. |
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Congrats to all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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I was going through the race images and discovered that many of them need to be remasked. And additionally the inclusion of the Style Tester adds a lot of weight to mod. I would suggest using Adres HTML file and ditch the style testers.
I would be happy to do this for the mod if any one cares to say ok. |
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Atrocities: Go ahead if you want.
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Whoa! We've made the frontpage. Congrats to us all indeed!
Nomor: Thanks for the mail you've send me. I haven't had time to read the text file you've send with it, but the pics are great. GRumbler: PM! [ June 08, 2004, 11:14: Message edited by: Timstone ] |
Re: Babylon 5 Mod
Oops... Timstone: the text file is the same one from Rambie's site. It just has the facilities descriptions on it. I only got 2/3 down. None of the Ancients.
You can pass the pics on to Grumbler if you think he'll like them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif [ June 08, 2004, 18:54: Message edited by: Nomor ] |
Re: Babylon 5 Mod
Other than the description bugs/typos et al, there were also quite a few other things that I noticed (or the lack thereof) that I'd really like to see in this mod, hell, even work on if you'd let me. Bare in mind that I haven't tried any of the following ideas out yet, so I don't know how easy they would be to implement, but I'm sure something could be arranged. That's if you like the ideas, of course.
Babylon 5 There... well, there isn't one. I'd love to see it. There are two ideas I had of how you could go about doing this. The first would involve setting Babylon 5 up as a race all of its own. The second would involve new tech trees, most likely for the EA (which, if implemented properly, would probably make them highly unbalanced). Both have pros and cons, obviously. Babylon 5 as an "Empire" would throw the timeline off kilter, since it could be said to have been around since space travel first became possible. This is the most obvious con, but one that I feel could be overlooked. Like the Vorlons and Shadows, population growth would be next to nothing. However, fortunately for Bablon 5, they would be in orbit around The Great Machine, which would be a definite benefit - I was thinking that Babylon 5 could be represented by an actual station in orbit around the planet, and while the planet itself would have several facilities (probably construction), the majority of the work would be done by the station itself, which would be made up of many new components to simulate normal planetside facilities (some examples would be: Red Sector - Organics, Grey Sector - Construction, Yellow Sector - Cargo, Brown Sector - Minerals (mainly from trade)... I could go on), as well as other components that, as well as the more standard parts (weapons, defence grids, cobra bays) could represent ambassadors like G'Kar, Londo, Delenn and Kosh (who would provide Diplomacy Points (which would function like Intel)) - not to mention other famous faces like Garibaldi, Lyta Alexander... I won't bore you with a list of characters, but I think you can see the point I'm getting at. As for "Diplomacy points" - they were another idea I had, since Babylon 5 really isn't the sort of empire to be sneaky as their goal is obviously peace. So, you'd have a host of B5-specific Intel techs to open up, which would tamper with relations (not sure if this is possible yet), open up new trade routes, set limits on people being naughty (mass drivers, anyone?), diplomatic espionage and more. With options for rangers, ships from different empires, and technology from Epsilon 3, there'd be plenty of stuff to keep the player busy, especially in a multiplayer RP scenario. Of course, as I said, the other option would be to add Babylon 5 technology to EA, which would probably totally unbalance them. I much prefer the empire idea, personally. Either way, though, it'd be a shame to miss out on Babylon 5 itself in the finish product, right? Diplomacy I'd also propose a seperate Intel tech purely for Diplomatic actions, since, again, I feel that a lot of the flavour of Babylon 5 comes from the politics involved, as well as the intrigue and the various wars. These wouldn't be quite the same as the Babylon 5-specific techs, but could be fun. I also think it would be great to tamper with the general diplomatic model (the message thing) to flesh it out a little more as far as treaties and the like go, but again, I haven't looked into that too deeply yet. Would anyone be interested in either or both of these ideas, or do they suck? |
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Goatfoam, your ideas are interesting. However, there is only so much you can MOD in SE4. I'm not sure you can do what you suggest with SE4.
Besides, the pic of B5 is part of the EA shipset. The EA needs to research Base Construction to get to the level to build a B5 type station. Rambie |
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Rambie: You're right, yeah. Also, the other point that was raised about the mod being huge already is another good one.
I'm still interested in making a more diplomacy-based game, though, so I'm going to have a play with it and see if anything can be done. It might be best to do it as a single player "scenario" type thing, with modded techs, races and facilities. But I'll see if it's possible first - I'm sure fiddling about with the Anger AI/Intel could produce at least some results, but probably only in a specific scenario type game. Anyway, we'll see. |
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Long story, but I finally started playing the mod this past Sunday. Wow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif I'm impressed. Great work, to all those involved. Unfortunately, we're having thunderstorms in the evenings this week, so I really haven't had the chance to play it very long. But I'll keep on playing it when I can.
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Thunderstorms? Does that really bothers you?
I have a huge array of condensators in my backyard. Any powersurge from lightning is instantly converted to heat with which I heat my sauna. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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You've been meddling with that dam gearbox havn't you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Dammit you Dutchman! First you flaunt in the face of the laws of what works for a society, then the laws of Not sinking when your country is below sea level and Now you defy the Laws of Physics!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif When will it end??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ June 10, 2004, 17:23: Message edited by: Raging Deadstar ] |
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Grege:
Ok, that is a good enough explanation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif RD: "It is I the great defyer!" (hope that's not a typo...) "I'll never stop breaking/bending the laws, coz I'm powered by Duracel... like the bunny!" How's life treating you nowadays? [ June 11, 2004, 15:26: Message edited by: Timstone ] |
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The purpose of such an exercise would be to import Greenhouse gases to Mars to assist the melting of it's frozen water reserves and create an atmosphere more suitable for human activity. "Consider an asteroid made of frozen ammonia with a mass of 10 billion tonnes orbiting the sun at a distance of 12 AU. Such an object, if spherical, would have a diameter of about 2.6km and changing its orbit to intersect Saturn's (where it could get a trans-Mars gravity assist) would require a DV of 0.3 km/s." It involved collecting asteroids of approx 2.6 km in diameter from the outer solar system and using nuclear thermal rocket engines to heat some of its ammonia up to 2200 K (Kelvin). This would produce an exhaust velocity of 4 km/s, which would allow them to move the asteroid onto its required course using only 8% of its material as propellant. Ten years of steady thrusting would be required, followed by a about a 20 year coast to impact. (This is based on current NASA technology.) On impact with Mars enough energy would be released to melt a lake 140 km wide and 50 meters deep. In addition, the ammonia released by a single such object would raise the planet's temperature by about 3 degrees centigrade and form a shield that would effectively mask the planet's surface from ultraviolet radiation. Forty such missions would double the nitrogen content of Mars' atmosphere by direct importation, and could produce much more if some of the asteroids were targeted to hit beds of nitrates, which they would volatilise into nitrogen and oxygen upon impact. If one such mission were launched per year, within half a century http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif or so most of Mars would have a temperate climate, and enough water would have been melted to cover a quarter of the planet with a layer of water 1 m deep. Humans could not breath the air of the thus transformed Mars, but they would no longer require space suits and instead could travel freely in the open wearing ordinary clothes and a simple SCUBA type breathing gear. However because the outside atmospheric pressure will have been raised to human tolerable levels, it will be possible to have large habitable areas for humans under huge domelike inflatable tents containing breathable air. Activating the Martian hydrosphere in a timely fashion will require doing some violence to the planet, and , as discussed above, one way this can be done is with targeted asteroidal impacts. Each such impact releases the energy equivalent of 10 TW-yrs. If Plowshare* methods of shock treatment for Mars are desired, then the use of such projectiles is certainly to be preferred to the alternative option of detonation of hundreds of thousands of thermonuclear explosives. After all, even if so much explosive could be manufactured, its use would leave the planet unacceptably radioactive. ( *peaceful use of nuclear explosions for industrial applications ) Mars as it is now has a CO2 atmosphere that is only about 1% the pressure of the Earth's at sea level and would require a space suit similar to those used for the moon landings and space walks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif It is clear from the Babylon 5 series that Mars has had some work done to it for Garibaldi, the Doc and Lyta Alexander to be able to run around in Eskimo suits and fireman's masks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif So Mars Terraforming can now be considered cannon. How having jumpgates and mile long Agamemnon's would improve/speed up these tasks is debatable.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Perhaps war and politics got in the way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif This should allow the Atmospheric Adjusters back into the Mod and consequently the other Planetary Improvement "Facilities". Whilst it may be said that these are processes more that facilities that can be changed simply by having a different picture to represent the chosen option. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif In my test mod using a "tax" of -500 rads per turn I was able to have a dozen or more planets undergoing Atmospheric Adjustment and still conduct a War on several fronts. I set them to be constructed in 4 or 5 turns by a planet of 500 million and to convert in 20 yrs or 200 turns. This of course made the planets inhospitable and reduced the mineral values, but that would be in keeping. One can assume that a inhospitable O2 planet is one that is still requiring domed habitats but at a reduced cost and quality that will eventually be dispensed with as further improvements are made. Sorry it's a bit wordy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif [ June 12, 2004, 06:29: Message edited by: Nomor ] |
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Refer to the post you quoted. Seriously... screw realism. 200 turns is far, far too long, especially if you want this to be an option in multiplayer games... Very few of those ever Last 200 turns.
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I think going to a more stock level of SY production from pop values for planets is a must. They can be some what slower for low pop worlds, like maybe 50% production, but that is it. Lower makes the game horrible unfun.
Also, bringing Atmospheric Converters down to, say, 30-20 turns, as in stock SE4, would be better. Even 50 turns would be pushing it... People that want slow converters in their SP games can modify them accordingly. We can even provide a duplicate file that just has the convereters being slow. Same with Settings.txt for the horridly slow pop bonus system. [ June 12, 2004, 17:25: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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I agree, but I was trying to get things down from 600 turns conVersion time , plus construction time of a similar amount as per current Mod settings, which means conVersion wouldn't happen even in a single player game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
However it would be nice if we could all put some time tables in the hat to see what we find acceptable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I was really quoting you in response to Grumblers comments on Atmosphere Adjusters and canonism. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif [ June 13, 2004, 02:12: Message edited by: Nomor ] |
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i have to agree with Fyron once again. Right now the game is way to slow, and the changes he suggested will make it "faster".
Right now its even to slow for singleplayer imho. |
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However, Fryon just basically doesn't like slow development as a matter of taste, and frequently Posts things like it's just "horrible unfun". Not all of us agree. I, and some other players, actually enjoy games with slower development. It's not just a matter of "unfun" or "slow" but of what the game is about. Games with Proportions construction rates ARE NOT ABOUT TURNING THE WHOLE GALAXY INTO HOMEWORLD CLONES. They are about conflict between fleets. Combat and ship construction can be rapid enough in Proportions. Colonization and turning all planets from acid-covered boiling swamps into homeworld clones in a year or two is just not what the game is about. If you make a PBW game where there is tons of uninhabited space between everyone, though, there may be little reason for conlfict. It can be tricky to get the desired density. I recall that the reason for using Proportions as a foundation for this mod was that it matched the Babylon 5 situation better. I'm not a B5 fan myself, but I understand that throughout the series Earth is pretty much the only fully-developed Terran planet, and the colonies are minor outPosts by comparison. That's the effect you get in Proportions. If you just want to use B5 stuff but in a SE4 style galaxy-remodelling game, ya a fast-building Version would make sense. Perhaps there could even be two Versions (Slow Facilities and Fast Facilities), and the fast Version could be used to create scenarios with appropriate density quickly, with the game switching to use the slow Version of the mod when it was ready for a detailed conflict (if desired). Then one or more scenarios could be developed perhaps with the non-humans getting a head start from distant homeworlds, and then the scenario having goals for the Terrans of survival, and holding on to their surrounding systems. The aliens would have larger and more developed empires and technologies, but their homeworld and strong colonies would be so far away that it would be somewhat difficult for them to dominate the space right near Earth (because they would have other parts of their empire to defend, and their remote construction bases would be perhaps slower and more expensive). That kind of scenario isn't really possible in a game with economics (facility speed) like unmodded SE4, because in SE4 the larger empire simply oveewhelms the smaller empire by volume of everything, since practically any colony can be fully developed as good as a homeworld, or better, in 10-30 turns, so size = almost everything. PvK |
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somehow i have to agree with PvK, too.
I have to admit i like it more "realistic" BUT too much realism = no fun. I dont like if it takes 10 turns just to build a minor city which in the end gives about no benefits. Then again i dont like if im possible to transport half of my homeworlds population on other planets just to see that that my homeworld is filles another 10 turns later. Anyway: gameplay OVER realism. Why dont we somehow balance it out ? |
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When a mod requires 600 turns to complete a game, it is bad for PBW use, except in those rare circumstances when you can get people able to play 20 turns a day. I never said it has to be the same speed as stock SE4. Just changing the pop bonuses and atmosphere conVersion times still leaves it much slower than stock, as the facilities tend to still be very expensive. Quote:
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</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, B5 mod started before Gold, but after whoever was in charge at the time saw Proportions, they asked me if they could take things from the economics and so on, because the more realistic development speed matched B5. Quote:
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</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not pleasing everyone and hurting the game aren't the same thing. Especially if you set up a small game and play to win rather than to build fully developed planets from scratch, or to exhaust the tech tree. Quote:
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Re: Babylon 5 Mod
I remember seeing slow development in B5 Mod before Gold came out... maybe it was a beta tester that saw Proportions during the Gold beta and asked you about it?
I did read what you said, and it does not affect my statements about PBW usage at all. LAN Groups are not akin to PBW in any possible way. I am not talking about isolated LAN Groups, but about PBW play. In PBW, you rarely get more than a turn per day. Maybe two or three in the early game, if you are lucky. Proportions, AIC, B5, etc. take far longer to play to completion than stock SE4. 600 turns is obviously a hyperbole. With the beta test PBW game we did of B5 Mod, it stopped around turn 140, when RCEs killed it. There was very little progress towards reaching the end game stages. It could easily have gone on for another 2 years before it was over. |
Re: Babylon 5 Mod
Fyron, probably you simply can't imagine late stage of pbw game (>100 turns) without maxed tech and hundreds of planets under your control? Then it's just a dogma which can be thrown away. I sure that you can have interesting and fun pbw game (and not Lasting for eternity) even without a fleet of 300 Mega Dreadnoughts armed with Hyper APB XXII and Super Phased Shields XV. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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That has nothing to do with it... the development and build up stages necessary to get usable fleets is too long. The game doesn't have to have as many ships, have 100s of planets, nor reach the end of the tech tree, but it also doesn't need to take forever to reach resolution. In a galaxy with 100 systems (shudder at the thought of more...), it takes way too long before the game reaches the stage that war can be waged succesfully and the game can end. 80 turns for a spaceport facility without depleting your HW is excessive... and that is not a made up number in B5 Mod.
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Ok, well those are two different issues.
1) In Proportions, it is quite possible to resolve a game quickly, if the players build fleets and go to war, rather than trying to colonize the galaxy and climb the whole tech tree first. "LAN Groups are not akin to PBW in any possible way."? Gimme a break. They are different ways of playing the same game, and they are very much akin in terms of the number of turns required to do something. Yes LAN and PBW are different in some ways, but turn lengths are the same, and the turn lengths were my point. The main advantage JLS' LAN game had over PBW games you were and I were both in is that they could talk to each other in person and they wanted to get into the action right away, so they did. While in the Proportions games you and I were both in, we had large numbers of systems to explore and colonize, and players were learning the mod and roleplaying relatively peaceful races, rather than fighting a war on a smaller map. 2) I haven't tried B5 mod. Given how much you exaggerated other things, I don't know what to make of your "80 turns for a spaceport facility without depleting your HW" example, but that would seem like a lot, I agree. Certainly a lot more severe than Proportions. As for the non-point about my off-hand remark about people asking to use Proportions stuff in B5... my memory is whoever seemed to be in charge at the time expressed enthusiasm for Proportions stuff after Proportions came out, and asked if they could base things on it, and that later in this thread, people were talking of it as if they had used and adapted several things from Proportions. If you enjoy thinking that I mis-remember that, go ahead, or go a hundred or so pages back and read up on it. I know I'm not interested enough to look for it. PvK |
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1) The point was that in a LAN setting, you can play a lot of turns at a time. But in PBW, you don't get to do this...
2) Actually it is 46 turns for the Trading Post... dropping off 250 million pop dropped it to 23 turns. I was thinking of the Colony Hub, which is 96 turns with 274 million pop. A mining colony I takes 17 turns with that level of pop. Now try to develop multiple worlds at a time, you need all of the population from the homeworld. Granted, a mining colony I makes 2000 minerals and 1500 radioactives, but ships cost a lot more resources to build in the mod. Homeworlds do not get anything special except for a single Homeworld Hub, which is not very productive, just has several misc abilities and some storage. This is what makes it take so long to develop anything in the mod... It is definitely no Proportions, but it is still rather slow. |
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