Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a question that I suppose only the MP vets can answer, as the AI doesn't use magic duel.

But I think it may have been put into the game as burden to make people think twice about one of the unique abilities of astral mages, since toned down in Dom2 - namely gateway. Sure you can blip entire armies around the map, and get a special attack before the other guy moves, but make a mistake, and blip into a province with a better astral mage, and run the risk of stranding that army, with appropriately dire consequences.

I also don't see how the management of dueling is especially more burdensome than some of the more mundane management tasks - ensuring that your armored Ulmish hordes aren't going up against too many crossbows, or whether the enemy might have a force capable of using wrathful skies, or whether they might use one of the other instant-death spells like disintegrate, etc.

It also comes with its own fair share of risk, now that it is no longer deterministic.

Why is it any -LESS FUN- than any of the myriad other ways you can get stomped?

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try the following:

Frost Father
Fire - 4
Water - 4
Earth - 4
Death - 4

Turmoil 1*
Sloth 1
Growth 2
Luck 1
Magic 1* .. *preset

Watchtower
1pt left

... makes interesting bless for Celestial "Ogers" and the mages...

A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. Interesting, but can't summon celestials. I'd rather not have to rely on the 250 gold CM to summon celestials in the early game.

Also, I don't think the reinvig blessing is all that good. 2 fatigue per turn is just not that much if you are frequently casting spells that cost 20+. It might give you one extra cast in a long battle (of course you have to bless first, I usually wouldn't bother unless celestial demons are present). It seems to me that air blessings would be more useful for both the celestials and the mages.

Would you really take sloth? I have enough resource problems without it... those leather armors seem to cost a lot of resources for the protection they provide.

Well, one of the things I like about Dom II is that there aren't any completely right or wrong answers in pretender design. It's all tradeoffs.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a question that I suppose only the MP vets can answer, as the AI doesn't use magic duel.

Why is it any -LESS FUN- than any of the myriad other ways you can get stomped? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As a MP vet I would like to agree with Alex and Arralen.

Mind Duel is an obnoxious, no fun at all, kill lotsa race ideas mechanism that is a thorn in the side of MP Dom and has been kept in the game to let us vets now that while Illwinter listen to us they are in charge. ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

That was serious except the Last bit.

I have never suffered from Mind Duel personally in MP so this is not a "I got wasted" whinge. The reason I never suffered from Mind Duel is I never played an astral race!? Why - to avoid the horrors and stupid randomness of Mind Duel.

In practice in Dom1 mind duel killed off maybe half the race design options for me. Don't play it because you, and everyone else, knows the absolutely brutal, largely uncounterable way of ruining your race - ooh thats fun - so much fun!

Fun in MP is related to the application of skill. While skill could and should endure a fair degre of randomness there is bugger all skill in wasting someones weaker astral mages and nothing they can do about it except not pick the silly race in the first place or invest in the Astral King crap shoot. No thank you.

Thats why its not fun - the counter to Mind duel for many, many, races is simply not to play them (or if you do don't use their mages).

That only reason I restrain myself from harranging Illwinter about Mind Duel once a month is that the Last few games MP I have played in have simply Banned Mind Duel. Nah nah nah nah - who is really in charge Illwinter? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif You can take my pants but you'll never take my freedom!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Keir

[ November 23, 2003, 21:44: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do. I think it's interesting. On the other hand, I understand the objections, and think it'll be good if/when it's a spell that like all others, can be easily modded out of the game if players prefer it not be there.

PvK

[ November 23, 2003, 21:46: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Acutally, you simply have enough gems to summon exactly 1 "Oger" one turn and 1 "Discthrower" the other turn, so you could get along the first few turns with a CM bought on the first turn.

IMHO it would be a waste of ress. - the pretender should either be doing research (19pts vs. CM 10pts) or go searching sites (Fire, Water to boost the somming). By the time you get the gems for more summons, you should have either a second CM or a "lower" mage with astral ability.

Added death because the low-level MDs could use them not only for summoning undead, but for skeleton med.(for themselves, so they are of some use in combat after doing the initial blessing) and Horror Helmets for the chariots.
Plus the lesser fear might be nice on the River Demons.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My fault. Accidently postet my first idea (w. earth), not what I actually settled with.
But I'm not shure what would work better, especially if you get your mages some more reinv. from items.

Than I found them to be real arrow magnets, so maybe air shield is the better option...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's the point:
Do not use the standard footmen, use the heavy ones and archers in even numbers (hold and attack/ fire xy; placed just left to the center so the archers can get in 3 rounds against normal inf).
While ress.cost is roughly doubled so you get only 66% of the numbers, losses to the front line will be drastically reduced.

Build watchtowers in ressource-rich provinces (hills, forest) and you'll end up with 60..90 ress. Those ressources should be enough to build 1 chariot or a mage plus some troops each turn.
Interestingly enough, in 4 of the 5 testgames I have started with this or a similar layout my home province was forest, the 5th was hills..

By the way - 4 Demons of Fire with "fire at closest" are _really_ devasting - and surprisingly accurat, so friendly fire is negligible ...

yours,
A.

[ November 24, 2003, 07:44: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I'd like to propose a different solution to mind hunt (or whatever it's called). Too many interesting Dom1 Posts had a long segue of 'I'd do it, but the vulnerability to mind hunt sucks'.

How about a Construction 6, Astral 3 Helmet with:

Protection: 2
Defense: -1
Immunity to mind hunt/(magic duel?) and feeblemind.

Restricting use of astral doesn't sound very good to me, since the reason I have these mages on the field is in order to use things like Star Fires. The immunity to feeblemind (and therefore the dreaded Black Bow) increases the usefulness. Of course, something like this should have a moderately high gem cost to counteract this gross specific protection... it should at least be more expensive than the bow is.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Perhaps the effect of Mind Duel should be lessened. Instead of death or permanant affliction. (This is just the mind duel spell; not mind hunt)

If a mage is the subject of a Mind Duel and loses; he is then affected by a powerful paralyze as his mind is overwhelmed but does not die; unless they are overrun. It doesn't cause Morale Failure or Routing behavior but any positives are no longer counted (Standard, etc).

That would make the mages useful and not a throw away of economy. Or you could make Mind Duel take longer to effect.

I think providing a total immunity would hurt those who invest a marked amount of points into Astral. If you look at the astral selection spells are useful; but nothing truly powerful. Even Stellar Cascades (which is one of the best and most widely used spells if you happen to be a Communion Friendly race and even very valuable if you are not) is strong but not overpowering.

The thorn of mind duel should NOT affect race/pretender construction by avoiding it completely but how to deal with it. Perhaps the answer is to give those with base astral some easy access to Communion or units that allow easier communion.

[ November 23, 2003, 23:33: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I still have never seen a magic duel. Does AI ever do it on its own? Do I have to script my astral mages to do it?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do. I think it's interesting. On the other hand, I understand the objections, and think it'll be good if/when it's a spell that like all others, can be easily modded out of the game if players prefer it not be there.

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like Magic Duel, despite the limitations on Pretender design it induces. It's a decent limitation on Astral magic, which IMHO is brutally powerfull without it -- it's strong enough as it currently stands. I also like it's flavor, and the way it differentiates Astral from other paths.

Astral magic has some of the most powerfull Evocations, Alterations, and Thaumaturgy.
Star Fires, Stellar Cascades, Ethereal, Luck, Astral Weapon, Astral Shield, Teleport, Gateway, Soul Slay, Mind Hunt. It's got a bunch of good spells that also require other paths too. It's argueably the most powerfull path, despite Gateway and Star Fires being weakened.

My only problem with Magic Duel is that I think it should do 200 fatigue damage rather than kill the loser(s).

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I have never seen the AI initiate a Magic Duel and yes you do have to script it. Or cast a Mind Hunt.