Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.
 

It would be really cool if someone designed an AI that can recognize a mistake it made some time after making it, and then you get a popup "AI Player 4 noticed that it made a serious mistake 14:12 minutes ago, will you allow him to load a previous savegame? [Yes/No]"

EDIT - there aren't 62 seconds in a minute http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.
 

Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.
 

Hi all … once more into the fray! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

It seems that with the fast pace of modern changes words keep expanding their possible meanings giving us more to have opinions on and individual interpretations. This discussion has covered a few words some might even say a boring booklet. We’ve focused a bit on cheat, fair, rules, and game code. Things keep moving along so now I’ll give my take on game and opponent.

A definition of game from a dictionary: any form of play or way of playing; amusement; recreation; sport; frolic; play.

The noun usage definition of opponent: a person who opposes; person against one in a fight, game, debate, argument, etc.; adversary.

Admittedly I’m going to what some have already called “boring” detail but since I enjoy playing a bit like a bulldog in posts like this I beg others indulgence while I enjoy this mental exercise. (You don’t have to read these posts after all.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I’m also perfectly willing to admit we can expand the meaning of words, I guess I’m trying once more to elaborate where I’m coming from. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

NT Jedi posted:

1)” Every game has either in-game options, windows_OS options or outside hacks which can provide changes during the game. When these changes alter an existing future for one opponent then the game's natural history has ended. In the case of DOM_3 using the save/reload to change an already decided future for an important battle(s) the game's natural history has ended... it's no longer a game where each opponent is battling for godhood because it's clear one opponent is controlling the future.”

2)” However there is a major difference between having a strong advantage and controlling the future! For any game the individual controlling the future will win(if he chooses) and thus the game is now within a controlled environment of the individual controlling the future.
EVERY GAME involves a risk of losing, thus if you remove the risk of losing by changing/controlling the future it's no longer a game and just a controlled environment.” (end NT Jedi posts)

NT Jedi in your opinion a game seems to require risk and therefore an uncontrolled future. Above I’ve cited the first definition of game from my dictionary. The definition seems to focus on play not risk or the need for some unknown future. While I might tend to agree that computer games are mostly simulation which might be called a “controlled environment” I still think even in the games which I so outrageously unbalance things that I doubt I will lose a skirmish that I’m still playing a game.

You also seem to think that only your opinion of the ‘natural history’ of the game exists. I think the game has whatever history I play it to including any codes, mods, or save/reloads I choose to incorporate. You simply do not define what is ‘natural’ in all of gaming: you have your perspective – your opinion.

(You also use the term opponent when speaking of gameplay vs. AI. I wouldn’t have historically considered the AI an opponent as in a ‘person’ but I will acknowledge it is probably a common usage and more modern dictionaries may broaden the definition to include artificial or automated opposition.)


NT Jedi posted:

1)”… I'm surprised you would even remotely consider providing yourself such a massive unbalanced advantage such as controlling the future via the save/reload for any game... unless you don't consider that current game a test of your skills and you are purposely controlling the environment for preparation of some other existing game or future game.”

2)” To start a game an actually consider the game a test of your skills means playing without controlling the future.”


I don’t always consider the game a test of my skills of combat. I have already mentioned my primary focus is exploring in all games not achieving (goal & success orientation) or killing (PvE or PvP). So I may as I’ve noted run through a game by literally running over the game’s combats while paying attention to other events.

As to the level that a game is a “test of my skills” that is precisely what I am controlling to some extent. Even when I start a new game with a low learning curve I’m still learning so the game is still testing my skills and improving them. That was part of the reason I brought up my experience in CAS3 (cubed): we were allowed to re-do so we could reach an acceptable skill level through practice. You yourself acknowledged this:

(NT Jedi posted: ) ” Yes reloading to perfect skills can be important and fun, controlled environments are typically used for learning and perfecting skills.”

In order to learn and perfect skills they must be tested. I simply choose how my skills are tested. I don’t have to start games over and over to learn mid and late game lessons. If I wanted to improve my mid or end game in chess I could efficiently and effectively start games from saves or from books that had got to the mid or end game stage. And just as I would study optional moves at any point in a chess game, I can save and reload to play through my options and learn better strategies more efficiently. As I’ve stated repeatedly I play the game the way I want. And I don’t consider the save/reload cheating.


NT Jedi posted:

1)” Cheat codes exist because developers use them for testing the game, the cheat codes remain for two reasons. First it would take time to remove them which can be spent improving the game elsewhere. Second hardcore cheaters will hack into the game or find a friend to hack the game and develop the cheats.”

2)” Even the developers from Rome Total War state using the save/reload to undo a decided future is cheating... as I've been saying from the beginning. Their comment is sarcasm because they know SOME gamers will cheat, it's inevitable... but it's still cheating.”

(On cheat codes)
First you speculate on why developers leave cheat codes in game. You have not surveyed them so you simply don’t know why any more than I do.
I’ve seen a few games in which singleplayer allows cheat codes but multiplayer doesn’t, if they bother to take them out of multiplayer why not singleplayer? Maybe they know some players like and use them so they accept those player’s style choices to encourage them to buy their games so they leave them in.


(On the term: cheat)
I guess one of the primary reasons I respond so negatively to the characterization of cheating is that in human games of competition and in most of life’s activities cheating is immoral, unethical, and illegal. Any secondary modern definition of cheating such as using codes, save/reloads, or other game vs. AI activities is so trivial in comparison that I personally don’t think of it as cheating. (I see nothing immoral, unethical, or illegal in using cheat codes or in saving/reloading games.)

Here are two more examples to add to my Rome Total War in which I thought the books flippant use of the term “cheat “ placed the humorous trivial meaning in proper context.

From Star Wars: Rebellion game manual, page 76: (TIP) “Save a game before you engage in a risky strategy if you are afraid of losing all your hard work. You can always reload the game and start from the earlier saved point if things don’t go your way.”

From Final Fantasy VII players manual, page 42: (General Tips) “Save often – you never know what lies around the next turn.”

These quotes at least in my opinion leave no doubt since they don’t call it cheating and that the game developer was encouraging this behavior as normal and prudent.
Finally you ignored the Neverwinter Night’s example in which the game allows the player and dungeon master to change characters through “Common Commands” not calling them cheats. Most PnP RPGs determined what was cheating in the eyes of the DM/GM and it varied radically. Obviously Neverwinter Night’s follows this tradition in not prejudging the use of these “Common Commands.”

Thanks for all your time ... even you not too bored readers. I love someone stretching my imagination.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Bugs & AI
 

Wow, I didn't expect to see any new replies to this thread.. that was an interesting read.

I never did buy the game, by the way. I did want to 'check in on' it though to see if anything had changed.. I guess the community is still too divided between the unrelentingly-hardcore camp and the hardcore-but-not-insistant camp for things to swing in the latter's favor. As far as save games go, yes, that would be nice, but for me the barrier remains the curses/horror marks/insanity/any other permanent afflictions. If there were a Remove Curse/Banishment/Restoration spell or effect to remove these or just a simple toggle that switches all that crap off I'd fork over $50 right now.

I don't suppose anything has changed in the few months since anyone last posted in this thread? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Bugs & AI
 

No, not really. We got three new nations in a patch.


I wonder how many of us who did get into Dominions played roguelikes before playing Dominions. That would give the player the kind of mentality needed to enjoy Dominions.

Re: Bugs & AI
 

Actually, I do play roguelikes (Well, just Nethack, Slashem and Dwarf Fortress.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

But even Nethack has Explore & Wizard Mode! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Bugs & AI
 

I just came across this thread..

The argument regarding whether save/reload is cheating or not I’ll sidestep – personally I think it would be convenient, especially for a new player, but its not a big deal once past that point. I’d agree it is a barrier to entry, it was frustrating at the beginning when I managed to self-destruct every few turns one way or another

One very interesting thing about all of this is that the devs really don’t seem to care about selling a lot of copies. This is bad in some ways, but overall good so I’m happy 

The bad – there really is a lot that could be done from an interface point of view to make this game better; save games, repeat forging, waypoints, automated troop movements, etc etc. Especially for single player where one just seems to flip through the turns, a lot of the game is a tedium. I am sure that between all that, the complexity and the graphics, a lot of players get turned away from the game and sales are lost. The complete lack of attention to SP doesn’t help there either, but I can see what a massive job that would be, and really it would take a lot to make Dominions really good purely as a SP experience.

The good – devs with a primarily commercial aim in mind tend to dumb down games too much for the gamer that really wants to be involved. Having just started playing multiplayer I can see why people regard it as totally different. With such a range of options from people and unpredictable behaviour, you never just go through the motions, you have to consider everything carefully and react quickly. The tedium vanishes because everything must be considered. Dominions isn’t forgiving – I’m sure I’ll be 4 weeks into my first MP game when one action Ididn’t know was possible will destroy me. That’s great!

A few years ago I played an MMPOGD called Faith for a couple of years, a team based strategy game that operated in real time. In a lot of ways that game really rocked, it had massive potential and a core of very involved, passionate players that spent a lot of time on it – much like Dominions. The major difference is the devs’ attitudes. In dominions they focus on making the game better for the existing player base, and focus on what is important for them – balance and new content. Stress the balance here! In Faith the emphasis quickly moved to keeping new players, which meant neglecting balance and dumbing down the lethality of combat. They also kept creating new content and fluffy roleplay stuff before they had their core mechanics sorted properly, which compounded initial problems rather than improving the game.

I would love some of the nice to haves sorted out, especially AI improvements, but all in all I’m just grateful to have a game where development targets improving the experience for existing players. Transparent development, a simple and understandable (even explained in manual!) game mechanic with complexity out of the vast number of races/units/spells/items and their combinations. Its all good 

And should our Swedish friends ever want to take it to the next level where it will appeal to a wider base (though it will always remain a niche game), I’m sure they will have plenty of support here to get those things sorted.

Re: Bugs & AI
 

Wow! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif I am one of those who truly loves Dominions as a SP experience. Set indie defense at 9 and adjust AI. It is true that the learning curve is steep initially, but the manual that comes with the game as well as this forum are both excellent guides. This game never seems to get boring. I still discover new tactics / strategies long after the initial learning curve. There seems to be no end to new content through patches, maps, and mods. The patches also continue to tweak the game to operational perfection.

I Agree, but as you can tell that would no longer be necessary for me.

In chess programs, you could take moves back all day and still not beat the AI. Each time you would find a new way to lose. You would improve some by continuing in this brute force manner, but progress would be slow and limited. If instead you read material on the game, and then applied it, you would improve much faster. The same is true for dominions. Read some of the guides in this forum, look at the battles and pause them to see how battlefield set-up dominion/pretender choices effect them.

I remember Nethack (throwing rings in a sink ect.) and Slashem. I deleted them off my computer and replaced them with Angband (Moria type) and its derivative Tome. This was because of my content preference.

For someone who wants to use an SC solely to win the game, these afflictions can be a strategy buster. There are however threads in this forum that address this very issue with a Prince of Death example. Some people even play with an imprisoned pretender. If curses/horror marks/insanity/and other permanent afflictions are game busters, then make sure your opponent gets plenty of them.

Re: Remove Curses and Horror Marks?
 

So. Looks like I'm back again. Well.

My position hasn't changed. Obviously the game still has Curses and Horror Marks et al. So I suppose I want to know if modding has improved to the point where modifying/adding spells is possible. Or if a mod already exists that accomplishes what I desire: No incurable states of condition.

Failing that I would like to know the full extent to which I can personally modify the game. For example, rather than just removing a type of site entirely, changing its properties. Or replacing by removing one and adding another.

Though one thing I didn't see addressed was insanity. How would you go about removing that from the game, assuming there is no way to create a spell effect to accomplish it? And while I'm at it, are there any OTHER such nuisances that I just don't know about yet?

Re: Remove Curses and Horror Marks?
 

All this can be accomplished... you simply remove each unit, spell, nation, weapon/item which causes the curses, horror_marks, and insanity. Start with a simple mod removing the biggest pains and as you discover the other units, spells, and weapon/items then you can add them into the mod. At least that's what I did for the AI Opponent Balance mod which took quite a long time for the first version and the next version is being worked on. Any SP gamer looking to balance the scales of fairness would like the mod.

There's no super cure potion/spell for the game. You should try the original base game of Dominions_3... that's where the horrors were massively out of control.