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Good point, I had forgotten about the hit to MR. I guess you could equip the thugs with MR boosting gear but the troops would still be on the low side even with antimagic cast.

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Well you can get a very good MR with undead, and other fatigueles commanders.
Lead Shield, MR amulet, Rainbow Armor, Astral Cap, that's +12 right? Quite commonly used items.
I used all that once on a siege golem, seemed like a really good idea until I realized he had no arm slots. :) But still, he was able to soak up a nice deal of damage. I think a siege golem would be a pretty good and widely used summon if he had arms.

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Yeah, feebleminded tart commanders could be equipped to get respectable MR. It's the ones that you didn't GoR that would be in a more difficult situation. For instance, without magic it's almost certainly not worth GoRing a monstrum - but they are useful troops. A feebleminded monstrum would be at 13 MR, that you could only boost as high as 17 MR with antimagic/iron will/army of gold (excluding magic scales in this of course). At the same time its high HP would make it a target.

But perhaps a way around this would be to give the monstrum in particular a starting MR higher than 18? If it weren't feebleminded and were GoRed this still wouldn't be a problem since it has such limited slots compared to the other tarts. In fact you might have to give it a perk like exceptionally high MR to convince anyone to GoR a monstrum without magic.

Interesting idea about the siege golem, I'd never considered GoRing one. Those attack/defense stats look pretty horrible (just the kind of target I like to send my glamoured thugs after :)) but I guess it's not much worse than a golem and if they had hand slots you could get that looking a little better.

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I personally don't care much for the new suggestion re. Tartarians. I agree that they're too common by far so would like to put another suggestion on the table:

How about tartarians become nation specific spell for nations that have a strong thematic connection to death and/or that need such a uber spell to compensate for innate weakness. So for example, make tarts available only to:
- Ermor (yes, LA Ermor don't need tarts but this is the nation that thematically should have them)
- MA Machaka
- Sauromatia
etc.

That way you kill two birds with the same stone - reduce tarts from very common status and grant or not grant the spell as a further tool to address nation balance issues.

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QM could you also kindly post the things that are currently on the table for 1.8?- This way we would be able to provide feedback. Even if only a fragment of this feedback would end up being useful it's should still be worth it, right?

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The vote options like any vote choice are far too simplistic and shortsighted. I wondered if I should have voted at all.

Hammers - should be removed but only after adjusting everything they affect properly. Forge bonuses to all types of smiths, const sites in the cap for thug nations (yes I know likely unmoddable), gear cost adjustments, etc.

SDR - I see no problem with SDR; they don't take much micro. Unlike gemgens their effect on gameplay is obviously intentional. And if you bellyache about them "generating" gems, THAT'S WHAT ALL BLOOD HUNTERS DO. A B2 mage for 160 gold "generates" half a dozen slaves a turn. This is obviously how a blood econ is intended to work, although the costs might need to be adjusted to find balance. If you want to remove SDRs, ideally what would happen is the formula for blood hunting would start at 90% for B1 with B0 staying as it is. Since this is impossible, I say leave SDRs in.

Gemgens - sure take them out it's certainly a different game without them

Sites - 30% sites aren't the problem. The problem there is ALL alt sites, ALL blood sites, ALL const sites, and 30%+ conj sites. Personally I say remove all discount sites, especially with EDM.


I note Jade Knives aren't on the poll. Why?

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Sure, let's remove all discount sites. We don't need any rational to lynch them and why the best solution is removing content from the game ;)

Good point re. Jade knives :)

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Valerius, they would be really nice imo, all resistances, high protection, high HP and mindless. Would be able to capture forts alone too of course. But yes they have terrible stats like Golems, however you add a good shield and a brend weapon.
I think they should be allowed hands, it goes along with late stage thug/sc diversification. They'd be like a bigger version of the Mechanical Giant.

Deamon, there are only 10 poll questions that can be used, so the poll can't be anything else than simple. My intent was to get some general ideas and feedback on the given subjects and have this thread generate some possibilities regarding some CBM choices, which seemed to work.

As fare as jade knifes go, well, I did intend to put them originally, however I forgot about them when I made the poll.:rolleyes:

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Care to offer some counterpoints about the other tart suggestion?

I don't see how leaving tarts as they are and restricting them to some nations does much good, especially as death nations are by and large the best nations anyway. If won't change the fact that nations with access will use them almost exclusively, it just means those that don't are fighting a massively uphill battle.

I'll look in to posting a possible change list before release.

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Sounds good to me. It's certainly not OP and the greater variety of summons on the field, the better. :)


SSJ reminded me of something when he mentioned the Momentum 3 rules in the EDM thread. In that game one of the boosts I gave the elemental royalty was 100% darkvision for those that didn't already have it. What about making the elemental royalty either blind or have darkvision 100? It seems odd to me that, for instance, the Queen of Storms can summon blind air elementals but isn't blind herself. Same goes for the earth kings. Then the fire and water royalty have odd situations such as summoning blind elementals but having darkvision themselves. Seems like it would be thematic and a nice little boost to make this consistent and give all the elemental royalty blindness/darkvision (I don't think anyone would argue they're OP and they are in any case unique).

Agree completely; I'd rather stick with the current situation than go this route.