Re: Proportions mod: So confusing!
 

The space yard ship shortcut to colonization is an irritant. I'll have to do something about that, and probably the asteroid mining base thing, at least for future Versions. I have a feeling people would get peeved if I changed it for existing PBW games... or at least, perhaps I can get feedback from players of existing PBW players on what if anything I should do to reduce the effectiveness of these techniques in existing games.

PvK

[ October 22, 2002, 15:51: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Proportions mod: So confusing!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, his point that tech in SE4 is far ahead of our 2002 tech is of course valid. Again, it's a matter of proportions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif He thinks the starting tech is so high as to be able to hand-wave away many problems. Infinite energy with no specialized fuel, the ability to survive in any environment, and the ability to manufacture anything immediately from raw materials, without any specialized research and design, all seem to be starting techs, as far as his point of view, while in my case, I see them as either at the end of the SE4 tech tree, or way above the entire tech tree.

One problem I have with imagining such high basic abilities, is that with those abilities, the raw materials and empty space provided by alien planets seem to me like they wouldn't be particularly helpful. The raw materials of a single planet would probably be more than enough to provide for all the needs of such an advanced techology. The main advantages of spreading out would be dispersion and maneuver, not providing "used up resources" or "room to study".

PvK

[ October 22, 2002, 15:48: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Proportions mod: So confusing!
 

[quote]Originally posted by PvK:

Quote:

One problem I have with imagining such high basic abilities, is that with those abilities, the raw materials and empty space provided by alien planets seem to me like they wouldn't be particularly helpful. The raw materials of a single planet would probably be more than enough to provide for all the needs of such an advanced techology. The main advantages of spreading out would be dispersion and maneuver, not providing "used up resources" or "room to study".

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good point. And a lot of Sci-Fi ignores the whole "expand by colonization" thing. The assumption there seems to be more in line with your belief that starting a new planet from scratch takes a tremendously long time. Even in Star Trek with their matter replication technologies, terroforming worlds takes generations.

The large empires in Sci-Fi are typically built through conquering and subjugating exsisting alien populations with the infrastructure more or less intact. There are of course many examples of powerful empires that have star spanning influence, but these typically only talk about a few large population centers. I.E. "The Homeworld".

Problem is though with SE4, you can only have 20 players, computer or not. So it's hard to really get that satisfying "Master of all you survey" feeling when you only have one large planet and a half a dozen measly colonies that cost more to defend than they produce in return. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

[ October 22, 2002, 16:27: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Proportions mod: So confusing!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you set the organics build rate on spaceborne yards to zero, then you could control which vehicles and objects require planetary support for say, crews.
Sats, mines, drones, retrofits and repairs can all be done, no problem. For fighters, only fully automated ones could be built.
(Make master computers use no organics, and possibly add a computer component for fighters)

You could have base-only yards that construct with organics, but require organics to build in the first place.
Call 'em "Full SpaceYard" and "Remote Spaceyard"

That way, orbital (full) yards would work normally, but you still can't build a full yard over an uncolonized planet...

In order to make absolutely sure people can't build a remote yard and then retrofit to a full yard, force them to be on different hulls. You could have the abilities built into 100kt copies of the Space Yard, (accounting for the 400kt of space saved).
Remove the components from available tech, so they can't be retrofitted onto regular bases.

Re: Proportions mod: So confusing!
 

As an alternate solution, you could lower the organic build rate of space yard components, but not remove it completely, and raise the organic cost of the colony component.

The limiting factor of fighter construction, and ship construction for that matter is typically the mineral content of the designs. You could probably find a ratio that make the colony ship inefficent enough to build on location, without seriously affecting the fighter build rate of the space yard comps, and without greatly increasing the build time of the colony ship on the homeworld, without requiring any further modifications. If it makes the maintenance too high on the colony ship you could add a slight maint reduction for the colony comp as well.

No it wouldn't totally remove the possibility of someone building a colony ship onsite. But the reason they are doing it is because it's quicker that way. Take away the incentive, and if they still do it, so what?

Geoschmo

EDIT: Actually SJ, I just realized the fighter comps don't reaquire any organics already. So no comp mods would be required either way. The only thing that could be a problem would be for a race that is organic.

[ October 22, 2002, 17:23: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Proportions mod: So confusing!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, it will totally cripple AI - AI will still try to build colony ships on base space yards.

One of the major features of Proportions is that majority of ship building occur on orbital space yard - it takes too long to get a productive planetary space yard even on your first colony and you can not keep up with just one homeworld spaceyards. Any changes to space yards will have big repercautions and must be taken with big care.

In the meantime I think the reduction of colonyship maintainance can balance it a bit.

Re: Proportions mod: So confusing!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You will be able to build full capability spaceyards in orbit of planets, though.
You just can't make them mobile, and you can't build them out in the depths of space...
The homeworld would probably end up with tens of Full-ability spaceyards in orbit.

The reduced ability yards could still be used out on the frontiers to replace automated units and vehicles, build defenses, and repair/retrofit.

Colony ships, and large, crewed vessels could only be built by a planet, or any spaceyard base IN ORBIT of a planet.

Re: Proportions mod: So confusing!
 

Oleg, so you want the colony ships buildable at space yards on bases, but not on space yards on ships? Still doable.

You make two separate space yard components. One that is base only, and one that is ship only. The base only one is the same as the current space yard comp, the ship only one has the reduction in organic capacity. And you increase the organic cost of the colony comp, but not so much that the total organic cost of the colony ship is more than the total mineral cost. The result is the colony ships takes the same amount of time it does now on the base yard or planet yard, but much longer on the ship yard.

Already you come close to a solution, but I suppose a determined individual could send his space yard ship to the planet, build a base yard, which will build a colony ship. To reduce that you raise the organic cost of the base only space yard comp.

This is basically the idea SJ proposed, I am simply saying you don't have to eliminate the organic build of these comps entirely. By simply lowering it some, and raiseing the organic cost of the colony comp, you can reach a balance where they are not impossible to build remotly, but can only efficently be built at either planet based or base based yards, not ship based ones.

The only negative ramifications to the AI would be a higher maint bill in organics for any exsisting colony ships. This can be offset by the maint reduction of the colony comp. And if the AI builds a Ship with a ship only space yard and then tries to build a colony ship. It won't criple the AI, but it will tie up that particular ships build queue. Not sure how many AI build those ships though.

Geoschmo

[ October 22, 2002, 17:57: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Proportions mod: So confusing!
 

Geo, I normally have my SYS build a BSY first, then it moves to a different planet. The BSY builds the colony ship, and then builds defensive units. So, your solution affects nothing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Proportions mod: So confusing!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course it does. Because your SYS would take so long to build the BSY you would be better off just building the colony ship at an exsisting BSY or a planetary facility. That's the entire point. The SYS could still build a BSY or a colony ship, but it would be a very inefficent way to do it. It would lose it's edge. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo