Re: Oh, the Horror!
 

[roleplay off]
Let's ask the people around what they think.

Honestly, it's about as obvious to me as the answer to "who come first : the egg or the chicken". That is : not obvious at all.

Chicken and egg
 

http://www.sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2000-05-19.gif

http://www.sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2002-06-17.gif

http://www.sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2006-08-09.gif

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

PS : I don't really care for the answer though. It's just a game anyway. But in order to let it be enjoyable for everyone, try to avoid as much misunderstanding as possible. Some people around are not native speakers ! To me it leaves too much space for interpretation.

I still will, since it seemed to be your intent, consider this treaty broken. And, before you ask, I'd join anyone that played here in another game anytime : this has been one of the funniest game I played with loads of diplomacy going on. I, however, will do anything not to lose in a game.

Roleplay back on :
Claire therefore asks all nations to join in a holy crusade against the lizard-people of Sauromantia. As proof of that, she will spearhead the invasion of their lands.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Yoth'Shothogg will join with Claire, to put the lizard-lovers of the north back in their place. Perhaps T'ien Chi could stop their seemingly endless and futile war with Ulm to help?

We Aboleths can only hope Sauromatia's elite force of Icthyids doesn't roll over us.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

I'll think about it. Ulm needs to be vanquished first. Perhaps then I'll turn my attentions to Sauromatia. You will need to make it worth my while, though, as I'd certainly sustain heavy losses.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

We've been nothing but polite to R'lyeh and have helped it in its plans, and now this is how they repay us? R'lyeh's ally Marverni stands on the verge of destruction and we offer Yoth'Shothogg a way to save themselves and Marverni both... and the aboleths choose instead to lay down and serve those who have taken their lands and slain their old ones? Their ancestors are surely churning their graves into cement gravel.

We are forced to look instead to Lanka and C'tis and Helheim, perhaps Marverni, who may wish revenge against R'lyeh for its faithlessness in the face of a single setback, and Caelum and Atlantis both have promise as well. None of you are the enemy of Sauromatia.

Therefore we offer you the Pax Sauromatia.

C'tis: you very obviously deserve whatever you can take in the south. You have fought two nations at once and come out the clear victor. We believe you to be great and formidable warriors, and we shall not turn our hand against you. You may have as much of Abysia as you can take. If you do invade Abysia, we offer you 1 year of peace, and we pledge 1 magic item per month to your war effort while Abysia still stands.

Lanka: you have been an honorable trading partner. We believe the demon people have a place in the world to come, and we will shall not turn our hand against you. You may have as much of Abysia as you can take. If you do invade Abysia, we offer you 1 year of peace, and we pledge 1 magic item per month to your war effort while Abysia still stands.

Marverni: you are in a difficult position against C'tis now simply because you kept faith with R'lyeh and they failed you. Be cautious. Nations exist which will assist you in moving your armies into the sea to exact revenge on your previous ally, if you can halt the invasion of your lands.

R'lyeh: if you turn your armies to us, we offer you the swiftest destruction of a people that this land has ever seen. Our mages say they can have us before the gates of R'lyeh within the year. If you instead wish the Pax Sauromatia, we will hear your words.

Caelum: you are an aggressor nation. You balance diplomacy with swords and mighty mammoth feet and you have survived, thrived. We find you to be noble and we shall not turn our hand against you. We offer you one year of peace unconditionally, and premium trades.

Helheim: the destructors of the Golden Age. You are mighty, and we respect your devastating cavalry above all. We offer you one year of peace unconditionally, and premium trades.

T'ien Ch'i: we see you absorbing Ulm, taking losses but persevering. We have our eyes on you! We offer you premium trades.

The land is becoming a more complicated place. In these times of strife and death, we should all take a breath and thank the Pankrator for this beautiful world that we have to fight over!

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Polite? Sauromatia spit in R'lyeh's face and took lands meant for R'lyeh away from it. Sauromatia, against R'lyeh's wishes, attacked both Tir na n'Og and Kailasa. Sauromatia has been, in every way, to every nation, a bad neighbor.

And, if Sauromatia will organize a great alliance, then we Aboleths believe it is time to end this secrecy. Is it, Atlantis? Is it, Lanka?

(non-roleplayese: if you two don't know what I'm talking about, I'm going to look like an idiot. Also, this looks like a World War. All that remains to be seen is who will be the Axis/Central powers, and who the Allies)

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Oh Sauromatia, a tempting offer. But I cannot do that to my hot friends of abysia, after all the help Claire has given me.

On the other hand, Maverni, steel yourself, for the green tide comes your way!

Re: Chicken and egg
 

The Deep Ones have long looked upon the Aboleths as friends and kinsmen, and hope to render aid whenever the cry to arms is heard. But in this, these games with words that R'lyeh plays with the lesser races of the land, we understand little and care even less. We therefore offer aid in the form of council and say only this: cease your machinations with the races of the land and make what wars and what peace as you can. The Deep Ones will honor our existing commitments: to preserve the sovereignty of the seas and to make no wars with R'lyeh or Lanka (with whom we also have long enjoyed peace and are proud to call friends).

We regret that this news may not be welcome news to the people of R'lyeh but it cannot be otherwise.

The Old One has spoken.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

So, Claire sees that apart from Ryleh, other nations (edit: that border Sauromantia) in the world want to be taken one at a time until there is no one but Sauromantia left.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Lanka does not wish war upon Abysia nor upon her other neighbors- Helheim and Atlantis. Such wars would only serve to weaken the great southern nations. Now is not the time for such wars- and may it be years before that time comes.

We hold respect for the nation of Sauromatia but feel that their power must be checked. Thus, we will actively aid those who go to war with her until such time that she does not stand as such a large threat. We are not seeking complete genocide, just that the power scales stay in balance for the time being.

It would be in the best interest of many nations to put away their petty squabbles for the time being to recognize the power and threat that Sauromatia poses to us all at this time.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Thanks.

However, Claire says that it starts rather badly for us. Not only has Sauromantia enough troops to continue sieging the capital of Kailasa and bring hundreds of poison archers to protect their border. No matter, Claire will win or die trying.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

The red people annoy us with their lunatic ravings about the apocalypse when they are the ones that have attacked us. The result: four score Burning Ones lie destroyed, the heart of Abysia's military. Their Prophet is dead. A commander with fine items killed, his items in our hands. Their army is in ruins.

Their god is fled, a wounded thing. No longer beautiful, Claire's motley scales worsen her pathetic limp, and a scabbed chest wound causes her to gasp and wheeze ceaselessly, like a faltering bellows.

Abysia, you reap what you sow!

R'lyeh, a gift - the lands of Abysia. Avenge yourself, redeem yourself, all in one stroke.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Claire did lose them.

PS off-roleplay : see the discussion on poison arrows for the reason why I thought it would be better if they just died now instead of wasting my upkeep.
Poison secondary damage on arrows works even if the shield (which I have) and protection (which Abyssia troops have) prevents the arrows from hitting.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Renojustin, please put an "Edited" tag when multiplying by 2 the size of your post after it has been answered...

Thank god I'm a forum lurker, otherwise I would just not have seen you've insulted my beautiful Claire. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Do you feel the chill hand of mortality, Stravinsky? This is what you get when you show our women your burning jewels of majesty!

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Yoth'Shothogg has acknowledged that the land people are more numerous and more powerful than the seas alone; should all the land be attacked by all the sea, the land would inevitably win. Why not, then, attack one at a time? Why not, then, attack when you have much help? Why not, then, attack and destroy the strongest nation in all the land and bring it down tosize by taking out a hefty peace oneself?

As for Sauromatia, though R'lyeh may take revenge upon Abysia in time, now is not that time. For now, Sauromatia cannot hurt us, and time spent learning how to take the seas is time spent not taking the land. We will strike where you are weakest. We will milk your land for all its worth, and leave barrens if necessary. As you make your offer, we make ours: lay down your arms now, and surrender the lands of Tir Na n'Og, of Kailasa, and every coastal province in your possession. Then, R'lyeh will leave the war.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

R'lyeh, you are ridiculous and say silly things.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Ad hominem, my friend. Obvious Arcoscephale's great philosophers have not taught T'ien Chi well. We Aboleths, of course, taught Arcoscephale's philosophers well.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Claire thinks that this was one of the finest war declaration she has ever read.

Claire adds that she looks forward to meeting you on the battlefield when Sauromantia is back into its rightful place.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Confucious say, ad hominem only apply to argument, not simple statement that R'lyeh talk too much for his own good.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

I think that R'lyeh, Abysia, and the rest have gone about their response to a large nation in an illogical way. You need to attack the weakest neighbor as soon as possible, to even be competitive at the next level. When you attack the strongest, you waste energy better spent ensuring that you even make it to the next round of players. And later your magic can make up for the difference. Basically you waste your miliary when you could instead be using them to conquer the weak and get an advantage for your own nation.

Here are some nations that I thought had early success in aggression, and that has paid off so far and will in the end:

1) Ulm - they went right for the throat of their first enemy. Personally I think ulmishmen are meant to take down giants, but ever since then he's been playing a very tough match against three nations that wanted his land, but he's losing because of:

2) Tien Chi - they went right after Ulm when Ulm had nearly conquered Fomoria and hit their capital in a lightning attack. Ever since then, have been solidifying their control and it looks tough for Ulm now.

3) Sauromatia - I hit Tir na n'Og with everything I had because he appeared to have a slow start. That seems to have paid off. Kailasa is much tougher, as they skyrocketed to eminence once they defeated the very tough rush of Caelum.

4) C'tis - apparently attacked Marverni, and then went on to fight against two nations - they destroyed the military of R'lyeh, and it looks like they're poised to engulf Marverni. They might even get into the sea before me with that research they've got going, and take out R'lyeh. We'll be seeing you in the finals unless R'lyeh goes back to help its friend Marverni instead of rattling its turtle shells at Sauromatia.

5) Helheim - is still annexing Arcoscephale for another turn or three, I suppose mainly because it's difficult for the entire Helheim army of 50 guys to siege a single castle. Next stop Lanka?

and lastly, Atlantis and Caelum. Caelum went for the throat right away, and you have to respect that. Now these two nations are fighting for their lives over there now, looking for the advantage to see who is going to triumph. Good luck to you both!

Re: Chicken and egg
 

This would sound like wisdom but assuming we adopt this idea- wouldn't that make the entire south easier to invade from a 3rd party from the north, having been ravaged by war?

I think you are underplaying how much larger you are than our collective nations. None of us wants to be picked off one by one by a much larger nation and would rather see the balance of power evened out a bit.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

But you see that's exactly what they're doing. They will make me destroy them when I would just as soon lie back and research some cool stuff I wanted to try in the middle and endgame.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

The question, you see, is whether you will destroy us. Just wait 'till I get Teleport and some decent battle magic. Even just some semi-decent battle magic would be fine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Re: Chicken and egg
 

This is R'lyeh's last chance to repent and seek its fortune elsewhere, for it will find nothing but death and destruction if it breathes toward Sauromatia with malice in its gills.

I return to you the head of your Aboleth and those of its attendant cephaloconcubi free of charge.

Stravinsky is dead! We bring freedom and democracy to the people of Kailasa.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Aiya. That turn didn't quite go off as planned. I was really hoping that my siege-breaking army would hold for one more round so I could pop off the last two earthquakes I had ready. Considering how injured your troops were from the first two, that should have been enough to cause you to rout with no adjacent province to escape to.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

So we exchanged 150 troops for your god and your capital, and two irreplacable mages... not bad!

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Claier will do the translation

Please, can you waste your armies in petty wars ? (I'm afraid of opposition)
Please, can you come at me one on one ? (I'm afraid of getting attacked)
Please, can you deplete your defenses against me so I can invade your back ? (I prefer to attack weak people so I grow stronger while the people that are strong don't get any stronger)
Please, can you let me grow even stronger while no one acts ?

Claire says, where are those ideas good for Claire ? Nowhere. Even suggesting those idea shows how little you thing of your opponents. Claire will not get willingly backstabbed by these "suggestion" that doom the world to your rule. Anyway, as far as Claire knows, the inaction of your early neighbours gave you a big enough advantage already. Claire means that you did take 3 nations without anyone interfering !

Sure, Claire will be going against large odds. She will probably lose. But Claire prefers to have a small chance of success and maybe hasten her death, but doing the right thing, rather than dying a cowardly death cowering in fear waiting for your armies to come pick Claire's territory.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Sauromatia no longer hears you, Claire.

Prepare yourself for annihilation.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Military leaders of helheim, I advise you to remove yourselves from Arcosephale's territories and concede all provinces you stole from us in your greed. Our lord, the one true God walks the earth again, and is filled with wrath.

You have been warned.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Claire hopes for you that you do not win though. Claire says that by winning, you have large chances to dig your own grave because this time your victory will be recorded by all, and all will turn against you. Claire adds that by losing, for obvious reasons, your also dig your own grave.

Claire says that the smartest solution would have been yielding : you keep a chance to strenghten up, and don't make an ennemy of the entire world. That's the solution you didn't choose. Claire says it's funny how, for most would-be gods, pride is a more important thing than brains.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Yoth'Shothogg is running low on money due to spending 5-10x her resource spending in money. Perhaps a nation not fighting Sauromatia but eager to help could donate a few hundred gold coins to the cause? Or a nation fighting Sauromatia that has no use for some extra gold?

Re: Chicken and egg
 

By the way, Sauromatia has clearly proved that logic can be used any way you want. He clearly described his own strategy either forgetting that it isn't the only one possible or just wishing that others forget it. Claire has clearly shown why it would be eeroneous for others to pursue the similar strategy now.
BTW, Tien Chi's attack on me was another example against Sauromatia's argument - he attacked a strongly positioned nation before it would become stronger still instead of attacking Caelum whom he can eat at any time.. If I had all my lands for these turns I could have research comparable to his by now & my main army would return from vanquishing Fomors. (as for my own mistake it was probably using to much force against Fomoria while don't leaving enough against other neighbors - but I honestly didn't expect them to crumble so easily. Also this was another example of the similar approach - Fomoria had no other route of expansion except through my lands & if they had time for research they could get quite fine thugs/SCs to fight me - attacking them before this I gained a position which I could defend while if I had to fight both them & Tien Chi I would be dead long before now.)
Possibly others can continue this with examples from other wars.. In fact I ask for such examples now - even from my enemies in the interest of knowledge of all.
As far as I know, Kailasa used a similar approach to that recommended by Sauromatia when making peace with Caelum & getting more territory from neutrals. This brought them what they have now - though they were in an unenviable position between 2 major powers, so this isn't probably a good example.
So it looks that while Sauromatia's approach worked for them just fine, it didn't work for others & furthermore, others were relatively successful with just the opposite. Again, just as in real life.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And banding together against major power also brought results quite often both in game & real life. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Also, I think that from the pure mathematical poin of view (i.e., barring some inspired strategy which opponent won't find a recipe against in time) Sauromatia now will "grow strong" much faster than any opponent whom they offer to hope for this - they have more territory, money (which translate into castles) & gems, so they: a) will recruit troops faster than anyone else; b) will recruit mages faster & so will eventually have the fastest research & the fastest item production - which, of course, translates into globals & SCs... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Chicken and egg
 

We should probably go to a 48 hour timer now, what do you think?

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Heh, my turns take about 10 minutes to play but I can certainly see Sauromatia and maybe Tien Chi wanting to move on 48h hosting and that's fine by me.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Timer increased to 48 hours now.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Personally I don't care, my turns still take at most 10 minutes...would have been nice to vote before switching it.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Would you guys want to take it down to 24 hours timer again for the next 10 turns? I can handle it!

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Same for me, my turns are going to take less and less time as time goes by.

Well, that was my first try at a communion, and it failed rather badly. I planned to cast master sabbath by the second turn and then some useful spell but it didn't really worked as planned.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

11 mages and two assassins down the drain, Abysia. You're not long for this land!

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Yeah Claire agrees, what a glorious victory you had there. Really something to gloat about.

Claire means, it must have taken real skill to kill mages with 190+ fatigue that couldn't fight back...

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Well, the timer is back to 24 hours. Make up your minds! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Chicken and egg
 

The wyrm limped and wheezed its way to the front of the army. It began the long, laborious process of crawling towards the enemy ranks. Gasp, shuffle, cough, rest.

The Warlock Apprentices, each with a beautiful girl in a gilded iron cage before him, stabbed downwards with their daggers and devoured the life energy of the virgins, joining a great Sabbath for the revered master of the Smouldercone himself, Malphas the Warlock.

Fire flew in waves at the Sauromatians, and men and horses caught fire, rolled, and exploded.

Then suddenly, A Thing Which Should Not Be materialized before Malphas, rending, devouring his essence. He was torn asunder.

Out of the husk of the body rose the Corruptor. It was the true enemy, the monster that would destroy Claire and her people, leading them away from the pure fire and turning them forever towards the tainted path of blood. It hissed and vomited blood at the lesser horror, then flew, laughing as it fled.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...orruptor-1.jpg

Claire, the forgotten dragonling, had almost made it halfway across the field by the time the Warlock Apprentices were exhausted. Riddled with arrows and hurt, she painfully slithered back toward the doomed lands of the fire people.

Bodies of exhausted fire mages lay strewn across the battlefield. The Sauromatians approached eagerly with spears and forks. You didn't even have to cook Abysians.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

"You are ill-informed to proclaim my death in front of the world. I need to say that the information network Sauromantia is so proud of doesn't really work. Being the one in charge of this army, I also need to tell you that none of your arrows actually hit Claire.

Also, by a bizarre twist of luck, you actually missed the fire mages and killed all of my apprentices. I shall avenge myself ! Even unwordly outsiders cannot stop my wrath !

The Invincible Malphas.

PS : Now, if you will excuse me, I am in the process of making some experimentation on the tribe of archers we recruited to try to increase their morale. The cowards fled when only a few of them where dead... even virgins don't flee that fast when I come to see them."

Off roleplay though : Malphias is like the most amazing hero I had in any of my games though. He's strong in magic and in body, got an alternate shape and a great back-story.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Tick-tock, with horror mark, it's just a ticking clock before he's dead, unfortunately. Not that I blame you for using Hell Power. In fact, that takes guts, though I doubt the horrors will get you before I do! So, also a well-reasoned decision, even if it ended up not working.

Re: Chicken and egg
 

A simple returning script could protect him for most of the game from your attacks and horror attacks.

If I had researched that spell. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Chicken and egg
 

Yes, a great story this hero has. He is relatively new, isn't he? And good description, REnojustin, even if it wasn't correct.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Chicken and egg
 

It was actually 100% correct. I killed 2 to 4 fire mage guys and at least one B2S1 and the rest were B1 mages.

Edit: at least, they died. the horror might have gotten one of them. that was quite surprising lol

Re: Chicken and egg
 

As it was writ in the Book of Blood:

"They shall be eight, and their names shall be - Pride, Sloth, Envy, Greed, Gluttony, Lust, Wrath, who carryeth the Staff of Unjustice, and Phil, who shall be pretty mean in his own right."

A miracle from great Frannabelle - she has summoned them, and they have COME! So have the eight Riders of Retribution set out from holy Sauromatia to punish the sea-things for their disgusting culture and unspeakable body odor.

They have swept the foul creatures of R'lyeh before them and taken the oceans from the clutches of the twisted aboleths. THE PROPHECY SHALL COME TO PASS. They are coming for you Yoth'Shothogg, and their name is DEATH!