Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I agree with a lot you say here.
Don't agree much about this paragraph, interested in what mean by 'illegal operations'

Completely agree.



Why instead? By which I mean to say, why do you think he is something other than a regular POW at Gitmo?

I agree; I might even be more liberal than you. I would be inclined to release them into the custody of a functioning state - if that state could demonstrate it had control of its territory; respected basic human rights; perhaps had an amnesty program for its fighters.

Federal courts as constituted don't have jurisdiction - this is one of the many reasons why the Nuremberg trials were convened for WWII.

Letting terrorists jump the queue for asylum in the US is a bad idea. And again, the US has more than 250 such individuals approved for release - but no country wishes to *take* them.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

What happened to "with liberty and justice for all"?
Not relevant, I guess. It's all about making money.


Guess I should move to France, then.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I was speaking about Egalite - or egalitarianism from llamas post. But I agree it wasn't clear. I almost put 'we are the 'land of opportunity' not the land of 'egalitarianism''

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

As best I remember, the "egalité" slogan indicates equal rights before the law, not economic equality.

I guess it depends on how deeply the Rousseauan economic critique in the Discourse on Inequality influenced them. I've always thought that On the Social Contract was the influential text there, which, unlike Locke, doesn't enshrine an individual right to private property as inviolate, but doesn't end up with the redistributionism you might expect from the Discourse.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

No, and no. Check your facts.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

They tried to extend it from 28 to 42 days, and failed dramatically, causing the government enormous problems in the process. Quite a contrast from holding people without trial for several years. I think really that underlines my point very effectively.

Also, bringing up the nazis is hardly fair. That is very much in the past and their behaviour is universally reviled, most especially in Germany.

Is guilt really assumed until proven innocent in France? That sounds very unlikely, but I confess I know nothing about it.

For the 10 million people a year trying to get into America - I'm not saying it's not a good place. Obviously it is, and Americans are lucky to live there, much as I consider myself very lucky to live in England. In recent history, America and Western Europe have been the richest places in the world, and so obviously people want to move in. And America obviously has many strengths. Just not necessarily those that it believes it has.

Yes, that is extraordinary, and deserves enormous respect. Which, indeed, America is receiving from all over the world. I'm much more pro-America than I was a year ago.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

What precisely is meant by 'equality' has been the subject of some dispute, actually... still, most people even at the time of the revolution used 'equality' to mean 'equality before the law', as per the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen in 1793, which includes an article that says pretty much that.

By the way, Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité only became the 'official' motto written all over the place a century after the revolution. Quite a few other mottos popped up during the revolution, but they didn't stand the test of time (some included Propriety, incidentally).

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

From when Italy is in Eastern Europe? Damn, they moved my country around when I was sleeping? :confused:

Would also like to know where people in my country are currently held for indefinite time. I'll say it tomorrow to my law professors in the university so we go and legally assist them.

(Also, playing again with Godwin? :smirk:)

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Who is also a white man, who spent more money than the other guy, who himself was burdened with the legacy of an extremely unpopular president and a frightening VP.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

It is often said. It is not true. The French criminal codes asserts the presumption of innocence.
The popular criticism comes from an unfair comparison of two different legal approaches. France (and much of the continent?) uses an inquisitorial system, as opposed to the adversarial system used in Britain and the US.

And I'm nowhere near enough of an expert to go further than that.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

He identifies as black, because the prevailing racial attitude in the majority of america classifies people of white+something else as simply something else.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

[quote=llamabeast;652267I think this is a pity. The US makes a far bigger deal about its history of freedom and equality than in Europe while actually being not especially good at it. [/quote]

Llama, your post continue to bother me far after I had logged off.

So, I did some thinking:

League of Nations.
United Nations
Nato
Breton Woods
World Bank
IMF
GATT
the Internet
the Marshall Plan
the Outer Space treaty (non militarization)
the Red Cross
Kosovo

And I could continue with quite a few more. These were all instituted either by American lead or with significant american participation.

And I think they showcase American idealism. Frankly, I think they stand as markedly superior to the examples set by Europe or Britain. Very rarely I think has any state been more generous in promoting the general welfare - or promoting institutions which might circumscribe its own power.

The idea that there should be a forum for countries to get together and discuss matters. America, following the example of our European forbears could have claimed the moon - but *did not*. The outright gift of billions of dollars in aid in Europe.

Consider the treaty of Versailles - Wilson had tried to insist upon a 'peace without victory' provision - it was *europe* that insisted on ruinous reparations. Considers Russias rush to claim the under ice seabed.

Perhaps I *am* being parochial llama. America was a world player oh probably since WWI - Call it 100 years. Show me a similiar pattern of disinterested generosity by the British over 100 years.

it was you who said "I would say that Guantanamo is a horror inconceivable by most Western European countries".

Inconceivable is it when it occured in the lifetimes of many people still living?

Inconceivable when the East German secret police were some of the most feared and abusive secret police 30 years ago killing *thousands* of people - including people that whose only crime was trying to flee to a better land.

Italy gave us Fascism - and Yugoslavia's Tito murdered gypsies.

And in fact there were noted secret police in Rumania, Bulgaria and albania even later.

To roughly quote the Princess Bride.. are you sure that word means what you think it means?

There are two primary standards for justice in western civilization. One based on the Anglo-American model and one based on the Roman model.

Serious crimes in the Roman model feature a remand (incarceration) until proven innocent - and it led to an inquisitorial style of court used in France and elsewhere.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yjG...um=3&ct=result

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Both of your linked sources discuss the situation in the 19th century. At the same time the Anglo-American system you praise didn't deem it necessary to provide a legal adviser to the defendant (read the wikipedia article). And last time I checked, it's 21st century now.

Innocent until proven guilty is de facto standard in civilized countries, and that puts the U.S. "war on terror" in such a bad light.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Well, I feel I should say sorry for that then. I'm recently fairly interested in politics (since the lead-up to the American election really), but I will admit to being dramatically ignorant, so I wouldn't want my opinions to upset anyone. My thoughts are more postulates than strongly held beliefs.

Although I still disagree with a fair bit of what you say, and think you do strange things with facts at times (e.g. the internet having been kindly set up by America? it was invented by a guy from my college in fact) it is very interesting to hear your point of view and I think you make some good points. I think if I was more knowledgeable I could come up with a similarly impressive list of America messing things up for other nations horribly on the basis of self-interest (e.g. Afghanistan, the first time), but I don't really have the background to say much with any confidence. I think such strong arguments could be made both for America being a very benevolent country and a malevolent one that it's hard to really know what to think.

If anyone would like an argument on statistical mechanics though, I'm all set ;)

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Heh, what was missing in that list were those fast food chains popping up at every street corner around the world. No longer will humanity have to wait as long for their meals anymore. ;) :angel

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Torture is illegal under US law and international law.

Unprovoked war is a crime against the peace for which we jailed or hanged many Nazis. It's also, IMHO, the second worst crime that can be committed after genocide. As to US law, Congress did pass approval for the invasion but there were conditions attached that the president had to convey to Congress his determinations about the threat of Iraqi WMD and links to terrorists. Given what we now know to be the state of evidence at the time (there wasn't any), Bush should now be burdened with explaining how he made those determinations. If he can't, he violated US law in addition to committing a crime against the peace.

Third, the Bush administration has detained US citizens on US soil with no charge for years, often in solitary confinement, which for that length of time is tantamount to torture.


Prisoners at Gitmo have been subjected to torture and general abuse. They've not enjoyed full access to the Red Cross. They are subject (like the grenade kid) to extra-legal rigged courts that don't allow the defendants to review evidence and admit testimony given under torture.

Federal Courts do have jurisdiction to try charges of conspiracy to attack the US. One irony of Bush's illegal war on terror is that US Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald on his own initiative sought and got indictments against Osama bin Laden, so that if he was ever captured, he might actually receive a fair trial, conviction and execution while his minions, real and mistaken, languish in prison forever with out charge.

If they were acquitted, they're not terrorists as far as we know.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

[quote=chrispedersen;652310]Many of those are erroneous, a few examples... NATO is not a Human Rights organisation: It's a military defence pact founded to stop Communism. Although Woodrow Wilson worked hard on the League of Nations, the USA Senate actually declined to ratify it. The Red Cross was invented by some Swiss guy in the 19th century, and the founder signatories were only European nations.

Furthermore, American dominance and lead in many of these is not a reflection of American moral superiority, but a reflection of its economic, military and political dominance. Western European nations were just as enthusiastic for some of these endeavours. War-shattered nations of 5-60 million people don't take the lead over largely unscathed nations of 200+ million. Especially when the smaller owes the bigger a vast amount of money and needs more to rebuild.

Not only that, but "disinterested generosity" is not entirely true. Many were simple sensible or active self-interest. The UN was because of the importance of setting up a talking shop rather than risk another world war. The World Bank and IMF are very controversial organisations - you need to read up on the controversies and see why and how they've unwelcomely advanced capitalist ideologies that benefit the West, and in some cases have damaged nations. NATO was a mutual self-defence pact where all benefitted.

America has also done a lot of dark things. If funded guerrillas and coups, often against democratically elected leaders (eg. Chile). It propped up a lot of vicious dictators (Korea, Vietnam). Blacks only got the vote in the late 60s. It has invaded sovereign nations (eg. Panama, Grenada, bombed Yugoslavia as you mentioned earlier) when convenient, but not necessarily under UN rules. There's a lot more.

For all that, I think America does have a strong moral heart, in its population if not always its leaders. But there's a lot of worldwide cynicism about America, and there are an awful lot of cracks in any US claim of moral superiority.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

You continue to cast stones around but you ignore me. Sob, sob.

Woo! I wanna play this too!

In random order:

2 Nuclear Bombs on civil targets in Japan
1 near Bassora
One atrocius pointless war which costed the lives of an entire generation against a sovereign country, in which you used the Geneva-forbidden agent Orange (know the effects?)
Cluster Bombs
Bombardment of Tripoli and Bengasi
Bombardment of Amiria
Support to murderer dictators in Cile, Gautemala, Nicaragua
Among the few (only?) western democracies with death penalty
From 2001, refuting any treaty or convention for the control of war weapons (chimical, bacteriological, mines)
Ku Klux Klan

And of course this:


Sorry, you asked for this to come.

USA invented or were part of very idealistic, nice things. You've done great good. Europe owns you much. I'm sure the USA have a strong, moral heart.

But it's childish to play a "moral superiority game". Every nation has its dark points, and USA as well has very big ones.

Of course, wrong.

The Roman model which is the base of civil law has the presumption of innocence. Reverted in the dark ages due to the Inquisition, but Inquisition is surely not the base of modern civil codes.

The Napoleonic Code gave inspiration to the most of the European codes due to its high idealism (together with the German one, for its precision in framing cases into schemes). Anyway, it ended in 1890. Why you take it as example, is beyond my comprehension. In France there's, obviously, presumption of non-culpability.
Also, I wish to remind you that every code or jurisdictional system is son of the history, ideals and people of its nation. You should be much more careful than that in judging procedural laws and systems without deep knowledge. Common sense isn't enough.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I'm soft-locking the thread because by now it has about zero to do with the election since a couple of pages already. Doesn't seem to lead anywhere, too.

Unless some other moderator or administrator decides that this thread should stay open longer for this off-topic discussion, I'd suggest that you find an appropriate political forum for your discussion.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Would anyone object to move the discussion to the Shrapnel Bar and Grill instead? It has the advantage over most political forums that most people here are pretty smart.