Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

That many!!!!!!!!!!! Ermor is shaking in his...wait, they don't wear boots...hhhhhhmmmmm, he is just shaking!

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

I want to give a head's up that there's a chance I might need a 24-hour extension. I'm going to try to get it in by Sunday night, but I'm not sure if I have enough free hours to pull it off with the ever-increasing complexity of these turns combined with the weekend.

I think I need to hire a project manager to help manage this work-load :)

By the way, you know you've been playing too much Dominions when your pretender whispers his moves to you when you're trying to sleep...

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

I'm going to go ahead and delay 48 hours. Thanks!

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Guys. it looks like the password got changed. I'm not sure why he would have changed it, but it looks like he did. I'm going to try to get llamaserver to reset. and give us 48 hour delay.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Ulm,

You better take good care of our undead that you recently kidnapped. Bone Daddy has a fondness for his undead children and gets angry when they are mistreated or used against him.

We must confess that you've shown a certain level of animal cunning with your use of Undead Mastery, but Bone Daddy's intellect dwarfs that of any mere mortal -- especially a fountain of blood that plays with other beings bodily fluids all day -- and had already devised an evil plan to counter it.

We can't go into details about the plan, but suffice it to say it's terrible and diabolical. However, there's still one piece missing: we haven't actually figured out how to torture a fountain of blood yet. For instance, is it best to slowly chip at it with a hammer? Or would letting our zombies use it as a bathtub be a better solution? It's quite a mystery, although our Dusk Elders are hard at research.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

On the other hand, Iron Inquisition knows many ways to torture a lich. You may come in person, we`ll show you.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

you better give my big brother back his skeletons...

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Oh, hi. I believe, mr. Nachtzerer has some unfiniished buisness with your prophet...

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

god i hate that nachtzerer guy. what is his kill ratio vs ctis? i'd have to say right around 750-0

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

when it's all over, someone will have to give me a lesson in killing good thugs. of all my shortcomings(and they are legion) it is by far my biggest weakness

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

In fact, it`s 145-2. Check HoF.
But since he`s immortal and spreads his domain wherever he flies... Well, you`ve got the idea.
Also, in his current state he`s pretty much in "proper SC" territory.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Bone Daddy suggests using the dreaded Dust to Dust spell to kill Burkhart Nachtzehrer. It's an easily attainable, AOE spell that requires minimal magic paths and is not resistable by undead.

Burkart is immortal, so you won't be able to kill him permanently in his own dominion, but he'll lose whatever items he has with him.

Bone Daddy is tempted to start fielding more death mages against Ulm since he's fielding quite a few undead of his own.

How does the dark side feel, Ulm? Don't fight monsters lest you become one...

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

He tried that. Around 170 hp with over 30 hp/turn of regen was a little bit too much for dust to dust to handle, though.
Iron Inquisition officially believes in "Evil unto evil" doctrine.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Yikes. I thought he he had a lot less HP.

That's good to know for future reference :)

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

would soul slay work? at my current level of research, i could get there in the year 3000.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Yes. it would. Except that you need a high penetration and several mages spamming it. Nice, tasty mages... :)
Prophets tend to have high HP in their own dominion... Especially if they get a +HP heroic ability and spend some time in HoF. ;)

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

For a nasty immortal SC, I would go with the "Horror Mark" spell (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Horror_Mark). It only requires S2 and is available at Thaum 1, which even a research-challenged lizard should be able to pull off.

A horror mark should be effective because it will attract -- you guessed it -- horrors. If you get a high enough dose of marks, it will increase the frequency and strength of attacks to the point where his SC might be effectively knocked out of action as he gets taken down by horrors every turn. I believe the marks increase in strength as you fight horrors, so you might not need very many to get the cycle going.

This is all theory-craft on my part since I've never actually tried this strategy, but it might be worth a try. If you need astral boosters, let me know ;)

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Horror mark needs MANY castings to become effective.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

well, i got nothin but time. of course, i have no astral mages...

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Glorious news, Mortals! The Sun has been vanquished!

The magnificent Bone Daddy, the monkey slayer, he of the seven fingers, and soon-to-be conquer of the world, has snuffed out the bright, shining menace from our sky using magic beyond the understanding of mere living beings.

For too long our peoples have walked under the sun's hateful rays that were cast down upon us in mocking contempt. No more! We're free at least to walk unmolested in the darkness without worry about getting nasty sunburns or forced to squint in the sun's nasty glow.

We know what everyone is thinking: How can we thank BD for such and wonderful and noble achievement? Absolutely none are required because we just want the world to be a better place where we live in harmony as a single people under the glorious night. If you wish to share in our collective joy and celebrate with us, then please join us at any of our temples. BYOB.

We do realize that a very small minority of naysayers might be fearful that the arctic temperatures, massive economic disruptions, and continuous monster attacks might be an issue. However, we think that this is a very small price to pay, although as a show of BD's generosity and giving nature, refugees are free to relocate to any of our numerous fortresses.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Yeah, winning a noobgame as LA Ermor - so much honor in that.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

If you're a newb then I'm a monkey's uncle. You have pages and pages of tactics written on the forums. If you are a newb, then I'd be terrified of what an experienced player is like.

I will give you credit that you give good advise. I think you need to work on your presentation a bit because I don't think people really took it to heart. Maybe they thought you were crying wolf?

Anyway, it's ironic because all of our advise in the beginning probably helped me more than anyone else: I realized that I couldn't just throw massive amounts of chaff at other players because there are just too many ways to destroy them, so I focused on diversifying my forces as much as possible (it's a good thing I took a rainbow mage as a pretender). This turned out to be brutally effective against Midgard and Pangaea -- and you this past turn.

I knew you were going to throw undead mastery at me, so I had prepared massive assassination spam as a counter. In the last turn most of it didn't even land because I wiped out all of your commanders.

I even created this chart to help gauge how effective undead mastery would be against my forces:

http://devnada.files.wordpress.com/2...eadmastery.jpg

I didn't know when you were going to spring it so I didn't have a chance to evacuate my low MR troops, although with soul gate up I'll have fairly high MR troops that will be more resistant to it. Of course, I could also use it myself to get back my troops in a pinch :)

You're like one of those James Bond villains that can't help but spill the beans about their secret plans...

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

That`s just because i feel it`s cheap to gain advantage by hiding basic knowledge from other players.
Maybe I`m not exactly a newb, more of a moderate player - but it didn`t matter because you already became unstoppable before reaching me, by feasting on Patala and later Midgard/Abyssia/Pan. And i had totally NO astral income barring my cap before I took some from Parone - so I couldn`t even dispel those Strands of arcane power you used to generate a huge gemincome.
Anyway, you`ve successfully invaded my heartland and will be storming my cap in approximately 3 turns. And I can do nothing to stop you. It doesn`t matter if I kill some of your troops, since you generate more per turn anyway. And there`s no way I can hurt your high-end summons.
Sorry, but i`m going AI. It`s too frustrating for me to continue this exercise in futility.
Mattyburn might try finding a sub - but I, personally, think it`s pointless.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

You're spot-on about Strands of Arcane Power. It made a huge difference and found most of my non-death/astral gem sites within a few turns.

A dispel probably wouldn't have helped very much since SoAP is fairly cheap to cast and my astral income was already fairly high, so I just would have cast it again.

It's served it's purpose quite well, although it hasn't found anything in many turns. I'll probably need to dispel it soon to make room for another enchantment. You can probably guess what that enchantment will be :)

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Burden of Time? Because Bogarus has old mages...

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

ohh the irony. i hung in vs shard for what buddy, 40 turns while i had absolutely no shot? and now you take one shot vs ermor, get whipped and bail? after taking shots at him that there was 'no honor' in his victory?

tsk tsk shardphoenix. you are a more skilled player than i, but not a very good sport...

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

There are things happening, that you don`t know about.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Sigh. Calling each other names... Relax people, it's only a game.

Well, first of all, I'm congratulating Ermor with victory, any further resistance is pretty much useless. I'll possibly strike at Ermor just for lulz, but chances for victory - especially with players quitting - are close to zero. With my modest S income it is quite impossible to destroy global enchantment spam.

The second thing - it greatly amused me that Ermor needed to break NAP act with me in such boring way. Having position that strong and initiating direct hostile actions (and casting Utterdark and dispelling my global are direct hostile actions) without any common courtesy is pretty strange, ungraceful and is not easy for me to understand. Still - that action was effective, although from now I'll have more second thoughts when I'll consider myself in engaging in any diplomatic activity with Ermor's player, and advise other players to do the same.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Interesting point about the NAP. I can definitely see where you're coming from, although in the few games I've been in (three including this one), I didn't see people be especially concerned about game-winning enchants in terms of NAPs, although I'll grant you that none of them were Utterdark either.

Don't most of your troops have Darkvision and have low upkeep cost anyway? I figure UD would effect you least of anyone -- well, besides me of course :)

Newb question: Is there an established protocol for NAPs? I figured it included attacks, assassinations, and remote attacks, but everything else is shades of grey to me. For instance, you were sending in waves of spies against me. In one turn, I rooted out three of them in one of my provinces alone. Is that considered a violation of a NAP?

I also feel the need to remind you that I assisted you with gems, items, and even went to war with R'lyeh to protect you (even though it was strategically a bad decision for me since my troops don't fight well underwater), and split Abysia's tribute with you when I didn't need too, which was all beyond the bounds of a NAP.

Hell, at one point I even told you how powerful I was becoming and suggested that you that you might want to consider banding together with the remaining nations to stop me, or be subservient to Bone Daddy. I even gave you the option to nullify the NAP so you wouldn't have to give notice.

If that's a player that has suspect diplomatic dealings, then you have some out-of-this world expectations.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

i don't think trying to win makes you 'shady'. shouldn't we all expect the other players to try to win. if a global gives you a huge advantage, i can't see you not casting due to a NAP.

shard-true- i don't really know what is going on. you have been nice to me, my post was probably out of line due to my rampant alchoholism. that said, it made sense to me at the time(and does right now, but hey, i'm pretty bombed)

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Grats to revenant on the win.

Re dispelling of Globals, my take on it is this regarding NAPs.

You should NOT overwrite a global with someone you have a NAP. In a game being played, I had to cancel a NAP with the warning to the player I had no intention of attacking him, he then realised it was only to cast a global that would over write his. Which I cast.

Now castying a global that will overwrite one of the 5 existing globals is fine, as you can't be sure whose will get over written.

As far as just casting dispel on a global, thats fine, as its anonymous spell, just like casting anonymous ritual spells that cause hurricanes etc.

Cheers guys and thanks for the game.

HD

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

How amusing.

Well, thing is, I'm just trying to use "deal struck is the deal struck" approach to the Dom3 diplomacy. Meaning that I may say a lot of fuzzy and evasive things before a deal and may be dealing with other players under the table, but after the deal is struck I'll find really difficult for me to directly violate it. I may reconsider this approach after a few games, but for now I'm going to go with this method. I'm especially wary against a NAP violation, in this dog-eat-dog of Dom3 it is pretty important to maintain at least some measure of civility.

Utterdark and Burden of Time are world-attacking spells. They have a same effect as casting direct-attack spell at the every single of your provinces all of the time. Thus, casting them without notice is a direct hostile action. Thank you for considering the results of casting it by me, but well, taking somewhat less damage from the nuclear winter is still taking damage.

Casting a direct attack spell is a hostile action for me. Utterdark is a direct attack spell. Spying is not. Did my scouts attack your provinces or cut 90% of your gem supply?

You told me that 2 turns ago - with no mention of using UD (and you spoke with me about possible using BoT before that in the future so I had some stupid naive idea that I'll have some notice of you casting UD). The same time you scripted dispelling my global, by the way. I asked you last turn in reply about sudden disappearance of this global, had no answer, scipted some war preparation things. This turn I was going to send you NAP dissolval message, and I was going to attack you in three turns.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Spying actually is an offensive action. On the battlefield replay it shows up as an attack and the patrolling force can easily lose units due to friendly fire.

And as far as the dispelling the global goes, it's an anonymous action. And I neither confirmed nor denied that I dispelled it. As far as you're concerned it could have been cast by an AI or a dastardly plot by another player to mess with you.

Yeah I know, it might seem far-fetched since I obviously was the one to benefit from it, but then again, why would I waste a turn and astral gems for a game-ending enchantment? I used well over 500 death gems to cast Utter Dark and I guarantee you that it was going to overpower whatever was there.

And it's not like I needed those other enchants after UD anyway. My death income is over 50 without Well of Misery, I'm overflowing with units so Soul Gate doesn't really help (I don't have enough commanders for all my undead), and Strands of Arcane Power lost its effectiveness a long time ago.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

I'll just capture the world with the legions of heavy-armored unkillable scouts. Sigh. Scouts die, that is pretty sad.

And I'm not saying that dispelling my global was a hostile action. You are totally right, I have no means to prove that it was your dispel. I'm saying that UD itself is a hostile spell.

Another funny thing: while it is impossible to prove that it was your dispel, "neither confirming or denying" accusations in the language of diplomacy means "you may think anything you want, maybe yes, maybe no" - but with some extra meaning. When one side accuses another of having a nuke, it is a good policy (translation: "LOL, come at us and check your luck - we may bluff or no, better to be our friend than our enemy"). When one side accuses another of sabotaging a power plant, it is a bad policy (translation: "Well, my bad, but I do not want to say a direct lie, and having me admitting it will be bad for me too").

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

I finally have time to chime in a bit. Couple thoughts/points

1) It sounds like everyone is about ready to concede. I know the writing is on the wall, but I'd like a few turns of fighting with Ermor to try to test some things and learn some things. If others want to turn AI that is fine, but I'll stick it out a bit longer.

2) I found it amusing how LL kept insisting I was the main threat based on research and 1 battle while it was painfully obvious that Ermor was conquering the world. Everytime I tried to point out that Ermor was the main threat I'd hear from LL and Shardphoenix about how easy it would be to beat Ermor. Well, we see how that turned ou.t

3) There was a somewhat long thread on the main forums page about NAPs. The consensus seems to be there is no consensus. Some players think its perfectly acceptable to move 20 stealthy armies into every province during a NAP, cancel, then spring a huge Alpha. Others would be appalled by that. My view tends to be the strictest form. No spies, so stealthy armies (only scouts allowed), no "offensive globals" (like UD) although I think dispels, etc. would be ok. Perhaps in future games, players should be encouraged to define the details of the NAP when they make them. I see lots of areas of potential conflicts.

4) I have enjoyed the game. Although I am going to hang in a little longer, my congrats to Rev on the win. my thanks to the subs who helped out. Holey, my thanks to you on a smart and beneficial NAP that we created early on. Parone: Thanks for hanging in for so long.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Same thing. I'll fight until my armies will be destroyed.

Actually, the same thing. I had a talk with LL and he managed to make me think the same way. Sorry.

Again, I agree. Still, it is really difficult to engage in such discussions in fast games when you can't even have any response from some players.

And again, I'm going to repeat those worlds.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Yes...and 1 continuation on my point #4. I tip my hat to Russian Comrade. This was your first MP game I believe. You were in a tight spot, especially with Patala going down so fast! You did well in a really hard position and I enjoyed your diplomacy and conversations! No worries about LL. He was very persistent! LOL.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Thanks.
I wanted to have someone soft to me to rush him with highly-blessed troops. Unfortunately, there was Ermor.

Also, I'd like to have a 24h extension.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

k. I'll add 24 to the timer.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Atlantis deserves a ton of credit for going all out against me in the beginning. He was truly an unstoppable monster in the beginning, who burned almost everything to come after me. The only thing that saved me was the map, which made it difficult for him to reach me in enough time to wipe me out. I don't have the map in front of me, but his capital is like 5 moves from mine over mountainous terrain.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Excellent. We have a few things we'd like to try out as well since you're one of the few nations (besides Marignon) that we haven't fought yet.

By the way, I'm giving notice to Atlantis that Bone Daddy's hordes will be attacking him this turn since it's obvious that an attack is imminent from him. However, we'll refrain from attacking if he still wants to be bound by the terms of the NAP.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

I think in the majority of the games those guys would have been right, but in a large map with borders, i.e., no wrapping, and no scoring, it gives additional time and protection for Ermor to grow in power to the point where a lot of those tactics become less effective.

Also, many of those tactics that were touted, e.g., Undead Mastery, are difficult to research and require a fair amount of preparation to setup, which most nations are going to be reluctant to pursue when they have other wars going on. If you can pull it off, then great, but it's not a magic bullet and there are always counters to the counters.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Yes. The map definetly helped in this case. Of course it also created a situation for me where I could expand and get way ahead in research. So it worked for me in the early game and worked against me in the mid-game when I was best positioned to check (had access to spells that would have been devestating to chaff) you but had no way to get my armies near you.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

I know this horse has been beaten to death, but I can't resist to get in one more kick:

To underscore one of your points, I totally agree that in a Machiavellian diplomatic game with no defined NAP that players are going to have varying ideas of what constitutes an agreement.

However, due to the depth of the game it might be difficult to hash out a comprehensive agreement without a lot of work and not without sounding very lawyer-like.

Unless someone in the community comes up with a precise definition of what constitutes a NAP (which is highly doubtful based on what Matty noticed) I think that anyone playing under this model will need to be accepting that these situations are going to occur and that NAPs are open to interpretation.

Personally, I think invasions, remote assassinations, and remote attacks, e.g., Fires from Afar, are gross violations of a NAP and reflect unhonorably upon the violator. However, if you're violating the NAP because your opponent is doing something hostile or even potentially hostile such as casting a destructive enchant, building up a possible invasion force on your border, or even sending in scouts, etc, then you have Causi Belli to launch your own attack. Everything else is fair game -- including anonymous actions, e.g., dispel, although if they find out and interpret your action as hostile then be prepared to face the consequences.

I'm mentioning this in case I play with any of you guys in the future so you know where I stand.

Scout infiltration might be a bit controversial, but even if they don't cause too much damage when found (and I have first hand experience they can depending on the layout of the forces -- play a game as MA Ermor with all their Nether Dart spam and chaff and you'll see) they are gathering valuable intelligence that serves primarily one purpose: to plan an attack. In some other games I've been in players will send a friendly message asking for permission to let them move scouts through their territory.

In this game, I didn't make a big deal about Atlantis's scouts since I wasn't eager to start a war with him at the time, although it spurred me to send in my own scouts. However, if the situation was different, I would have been justified to use it as a pretext to war.

Note: I don't think it's wrong to spy on people you have NAPs with -- just be prepared to handle the consequences if they are caught.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Well, you may attack me anytime, you already broken NAP with UD and while my forces are not in thier positions it is of little importance juset now.

No wrapping is bad bad bad. Normally you are going to have at least three nations working against LA Ermor in the early game, this time we had two. And players in corners have great advantadge. It is possible to limit the effects of that problems with very careful map design, but it is not a trivial.


About scouts and casus belli: if you are concerned about someones scouts you may talk to that player about it. To deaclare war if someone sent a scout or two to your territory is not a good thing.

Casting Utterdark is the same thing to say "World, I want to bugger you and I'm doing this rrrrright now." I can't understand how this may even possibly lie in the gray area, sorry.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Or they just keep an eye on you to ensure, that you`re not preparing to backstab.
I always do it, for example.
BTW, I was planning an early attack against Bogarus... Mainly for the reason I couldn`t move my scouts to the west, past his capitol. But then Parone started threating me - and became №1 priority target.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Next time ask and I'll pause patrol for a turn or 2 so you can sneak by.

I really was convinced you were going to attack me sooner or later. With the way LL was going on and you agreeing with him (and having each of you on each side). I always had to keep at least 1/2 my army facing you. It really slowed down my attack on Marignon.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Well, having super-fast research, not needing anything but scales and AND simargl patrollers on top of that makes Bogarus one of LA`s biggest powerhouses (if not THE biggest in Ermor`s absence). Easy access to soulcontracts helps too, OFC. So, you cannot blame me for that. :)
BTW, next time limit yourself to magic-1. Your best researchers (Starets and master of names) have sage bonus, so magic-3 isn`t too effective on them.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

Thanks for the tip on the magic. I should move those points elsewhere...and nope don't blame you one bit. Just was surprised not to be attacked!!

And like I Said before the map really helped me early. I was able to expand way south, not too much east(because we bumped into each other), but nevertheless I was able to get a great early jump with crap troops and a dormant pretender.

I think by turn 20 I probably had 6 forts and was way ahead on research. Unfortunately I got overcautious expecting to get double-teamed and got into a war that took wayyyy too long and moved me away from the Ermor action. It was a fun learning experience. Unfortunately every other game I've played with Bogarus since this I have either gotten caught into an early war or hemmed in and had trouble expanding.

Re: BSoD (Newbie, LA, CBM 1.92) [Started!]
 

shard, me thinks that is not accurate. i was at war with abysia when you attacked me-i didn't threaten you! you said you were going to attack and so i threatened to kill every one of your men you moved across the bridge(a threat i failed to execute).

anyway, i think i will eventually win this game now that my cap has been liberated. big mistake bone daddy.