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Group 1 Tessellate vs Vikings Group 2 United Flora vs Aquilaeian |
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Vikings vs Tessellate.
Starting in the down side, the Tessellate defeated the Vikings at the turn 350. Here the link: Vikings_vs_Tessellate_G1B.zip I think the luck will decide this balanced semi-final! Tessellate 2 Points. Space Vikings 2 Points. Still need to run 2 more games, but if ater it still we have a draw, I will run a tie-break like did in the past... |
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Tessellate vs Space Vikings.
The Vikings had the initiaative during most part the time. The Tessellate destroyed some of their own systems, trying to stop the attackers. Turn 410. The Vikings are rebuilding Ab Ova, Aargau and Ashadra. The Tessellate conquered Abrion and started to attack Cewandi. At this point, althoutgh the Tessellate is ahead in the numbers, think the game could be for the Vikings too, because they have good fleets inside the Tessellate's territory. Turn 500. The Tessellate won by points, although they controled less systems. Still I need to run a game, and if the Vikings can defeat the Tessellate, then, I will run a Tie-Break. Here the link: Tesellate_vs_Vikings_G1C.zip [ May 17, 2003, 18:13: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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MB - I use your map and your batch program to test my revised AI's. In my Last test game, the Corrian opened a warp point to the Game Master system and blew up their star. Interesting behavior and glad to see that they use Stellar Manip so effectively. Also the first time I have seen this happen. BTW, they beat the Rage by points at turn 300. Still need to make them stronger.
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Aquilaeian vs United Flora.
This time, the UF won at the turn 327, and then, they go to the final! Standings in the group G2 finish with an expressive 4-0 for the United Flora! Here the link: Aquilaeian_vs_UFlora_G2B.zip |
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Yes, if the AI have Warp Openers, will use it. But only to open holes to unexplored systems. Quote:
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Space Vikings vs Tessellate.
After a long and balanced game, the Tessellate won by points at the turn 500. With this result, the Tessellate did 4 points and the Vikings finished with 2 points. Here the link: Vikings_vs_Tessellate_G1C.zip Then this night I'll start the final between the Tessellate and the United Flora. Will be 8 games (plus a Tie-break if does exist a draw). Also, if an AI can get a result like 5-0, the final will be over... Although I did not yet games between both races with this map/settings (I did some with more AIs, when was doing the AI for the Tessellate), my guess is that the UF should win without big problems. [ May 18, 2003, 16:12: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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Thanks for the information. If i can get Turbo Pascal to work and my programming skills are not failing me i will have a go. gr. Tymy |
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This means Vikings are 3rd place, right? |
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[quote]Originally posted by Tymy:
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I you want exchange more ideas or a beta tester, drop me an e-mail. |
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[quote]Originally posted by Dralasite:
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Tessellate vs United Flora.
Although the Tessellate offered a decent challenge, the UF won at the turn 350. Honestly I think will be very difficult for the Tessellate defeat the UF, even starting in the down side. Here the link: UFlora_vs_Tessellate_Final.zip [ May 19, 2003, 23:49: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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But also, please remember that for the AI is VERY important the game settings and map. With the current conditions, the UF AI is without doubts the best. But if you remember the fisrt Death Match, although the UF did a very good job, the UF was down of several AIs. The Narn is the oppossite example... they won the first Death Match withouth problems and in the second, although did a good job too, they were far to repeat their outstanding performances. One more element to consider is the Bug that makes the AI believe that is lack of resources, when need to decide the Type of Colony: the AI doesn't consider the Bonus to know if is lack of resources or not, then, a colony that should have be used to Research could be used for Minerals... This Bug really hurted the performance of my own AIs (with this map they're always somewhat lack of research/intel). But regardless the problems, think the 2 Death Matchs helped us to know more about the AIs, and now we have elements to identificate the best AIs. After all these games, I'm sure that some races never will defeat other races... regardless the game settings. About the Temporal/Crystalline combo, I'm not so sure. After all, think the standard Shield Depleters can eat very well the shields... After some years playing SE4 and modding/testing AIs, I think the most important racial trait for an AI is the Religious. The Talisman IMHO, although is an unbalanced component, is the best way to make competitive an AI when play against humans. |
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The united flora's combo is deadly. Not only this chipset is beautiful, but this AI is still a groundbreaking one.
To my opinion, the best suited techs to fight the talisman are the organic techs. So when you combine the 2...... I wonder if someone will try to make a temporal/cristaline race. Just imagine warships bearing temporal shield bLasters with cristaline armor skiping..... |
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United Flora vs Tessellate.
Starting in the down side, the Tessellate defeated the UF at the turn 380. At least the Final will not finish 5-0! Here the link: UFlora_vs_Tessellate_Final.zip |
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Wow, its been a great second death match. I have read every post in both death match threads.
I downloaded both maps and they are great at balancing things for all atmosphere and colony types. I also like the three dualing channels with the asteroid systems seperating the two sides. But considering the differences we have seen in this death match between starting in the upper or lower side, I thought there might be a way to further balance the two halves. I am currently working to change the map to incorporate two new ideas. The first idea is that the same planet types and number should be the same distance in game hexes (not systems) from the starting planets for both empires. The second idea is symmetry. If you consider the entire galaxy map with all the system maps inside and do a 180 degree rotation, then the map falls back on top of itself. Player two and three swapped sides during the rotation, but the map (even system maps) look exactly the same as before the rotation. Thus the two players start in absolutely identical situtations. I am about 3/4 of the way through adding these concepts to your map, but I wanted to know your opinion. Also, what other map changes have considered making but not implemented? Thanks. |
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I am interested by such a map !
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I like your idea. A good balanced map will force the ai to its limits. I´d like to see an area in the middle of the map wich is NOT connected by Warppoints. Let´s say that this area will be about 25% of the total space. This means that the only way to make first contact is to go around this area. To challenge the ai even further more you can make a corridor to both empires by a couple of systems wich are connected by warppoints with a damage when passing through. Make the ai to do some work to make first contact and even more work to establih a position ´on the otherside´. Just my thoughts ! gr. Tymy |
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[quote]Originally posted by Tymy:
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About the difference to start in the upper or lower side... I don't know why, but the "Colony Ship Bug" always happen in the upper side. Don't know why an AI decide to build only "Colony Gas" ships, when have lots of Ice planets available to colonize. |
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I like your idea. A good balanced map will force the ai to its limits. I´d like to see an area in the middle of the map wich is NOT connected by Warppoints. Let´s say that this area will be about 25% of the total space. This means that the only way to make first contact is to go around this area. To challenge the ai even further more you can make a corridor to both empires by a couple of systems wich are connected by warppoints with a damage when passing through. Make the ai to do some work to make first contact and even more work to establih a position ´on the otherside´. Just my thoughts ! gr. Tymy</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hugh soory Tymy... but I'm with Unknown Enemy here. With your suggestion, I think the test would be very partial. Also, even the current map is partial: many times an AI start at the side of other AI... |
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Tessellate vs United Flora.
The Tessellate ressisted during a time, but when the UF sent their first strong fleets, the game was over. The UF won at the turn 250. Here the link: Tessellate_vs_UFlora_FinalB.zip |
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United floras 2
Tesselate 1 |
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United Flora vs Tessellate.
The United Flora won at the turn 310. A fairly fast victory, considering that they started at the upper side... and looks like the predictions about who would win this final, are accurated. Here the link: UFlora_vs_Tessellate_Finalb.zip Edit: standings United Flora 3 Tessellate 1 [ May 23, 2003, 00:17: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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hmm, this is almost like a tennis match. Starting on the upper or lower side giving you an advantage. If that is so, the UF are one 'break' ahead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
Rollo |
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By the way, the UF won the game that was running during the night... and they're now 4-1. |
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MB, thanks again for doing this death match for us! If I recall correctly, this thread identified at least one bug (the colony bug), and brought up at least 3 or 4 Posts about (distinct) methods for (re)designing AIs. I'd call that a great success. |
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Thanks for the encouragement. I have finally finished the new map I have been working on. This map is based on the system layout of Master Belisarius's Death Match 2 map, but each system map has been completely reworked.
Map Use: To use put a observer as player one in the far away Zitrod system with no warp points, put AI Oppenent 1 as player two in the upper central Aldan system, and AI Opponent 2 as player three in the lower central Sutran system. Change the planet type and atmosphere to match the each players starting colony and atmosphere preferences. If you fail to do this, then some players will get additional planets that ruin the movement point and planet type balance of the map. Goals/Changes: A) Balance of planet type and atmosphere changed to be movement point based instead of number of systems away based. Example: If there is a nice mineral rich rock oxygen planet 8 movement points away from the nearest home planet, then there are also nice mineral rich ANY ANY planets 8 movement points away. B) Make the overall map symmetric to 180 degree rotation. If you picture the galaxy map and each system map inside and rotate 180 degrees about the central system between the AI opponents, then the resulting galaxy map and each system map looks identical. The AI opponents starting positions have switched sides and the human player now observes from far away on the other side, but the position of objects within the systems looks the same. Example: If AI opponent one enters a system and turns left to find a nice juicy mineral rich ice methane planet, then AI opponent 2 can enter the equivalent system on his side of the map and turn left and find a mineral rich ice methane planet of the same juicyness. C) Closely balance total number of facilities available for each planet type and atmosphere so the AI's are on a similar footing. There are 5 medium rock and ice planets, one of each atmosphere in every system. There are also 4 large gas planets, one of each valid atmosphere. Finally there is a tiny rock none and ice none moon like planet in each system. This gives 32 facilities per system (fps) for gas giant players and rock/ice none players, but only 28 fps for rock/ice other atmospheres. There are seven total systems on each players side so that is a 28 facility disadvantage for rock/ice other atmospheres types. So for more facility balance, 4 additional medium rock and 4 additional medium ice planets were added among the seven systems (all the average distance away with the average quality). Now rock/ice other atmospheres have 31.4 fps, gas other have 32.0, and rock/ice none have 33.7 fps. Gas player have to colonize the fewest planets for the same number of facilities while rock/ice none have to colonize the most planets. I think the overall result is closely balance, with slight biases in the same direction as they would be on random maps. D) Add some variety in planet qualities while maintaining balance. Among the 7 systems near each player are seven types of balanced planet sets: Planet Type, Mineral Value, Organic Value, Radioactive Value 1, 115, 115, 115 2, 30, 95, 140 3, 95, 140, 30 4, 140, 30, 95 5, 30, 30, 70 6, 30, 70, 30 7, 95, 30, 30 Type 1 planets are all in the single system away from the opponent, while type 2-4 planets are distributed among the three closest systems toward the opponent, and type 5-7 systems are distributed among the three second closet systems toward the opponent. The distribution occurs like this: rock type 2, ice type 3, and gas type 4 are in one system; then ice type 2, gas type 3, and rock type 4 are in another; and finally gas type 2, rock type 3, and ice type 4 are in the Last of the set. E) Changed the system names so player 2(3)'s home system starts with A(S), those one away start with B(T), and two away start with D(X). The middle asteroid systems start with M. AI Dueling Map [ May 23, 2003, 21:36: Message edited by: cybersol ] |
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MB, thanks again for doing this death match for us! If I recall correctly, this thread identified at least one bug (the colony bug), and brought up at least 3 or 4 Posts about (distinct) methods for (re)designing AIs. I'd call that a great success.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks. Also, we discovered here other nasty bug: the AI doesn't consider the Bonus to know if need to ignore the AI_Planet_Types.txt or not Really hope that at least this bug could be fixed... but I'm starting to believe that will not exist more SE4 patches. |
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I'll do some test later, and will let you know how it worked to me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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THE UNITED FLORA IS THE NEW CHAMPION!
===================================== Congrats Rollo!!!! ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Again you defeated me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif ) The UF defeated the Tessellate 2 more times (turn 260 starting in the down side and turn 360 starting at the upper side), and then, they won the Final 5 vs 1. Here the link to both games: Tessellate_vs_UFlora_FinalC.zip UFlora_vs_Tessellate_FinalC.zip Is evident that the UF victory on this second Death Match was more than deserved (they have played 34 games and only lost 2!). This contest doesn't wanted to reach the absolute truth (as was demonstrated before, the game settings never are fair to all the AIs), but regardless this problem and the bugs, after the 211 games of this contest (in the first Death Match I runned 73 games), I think we have some more elements to know the most competitive AIs. Here a link to the excel file, with the matches and results (hope I have killed all the mistakes!): AI-DEATH-MATCH-2-RESULTS.zip.zip The AI DEATH MATCH II Final standings here! ====================================== ROUND PLACE POINTS ====================================== Final 1 United Flora 32 Final 2 Tessellate 27 SemiFinal 3 Space Vikings 23 SemiFinal 4 Aquilaeian 15 Round 6 5 CueCappa 16 Round 6 6 Narn Regime 15 Round 5 7 Pyrochette 15 Round 5 8 Toron 13 Round 4 9 Fazrah 9 Round 4 10 EEE 7 Round 4 11 Khrel 7 Round 4 12 Orks 5 Round 3 13 Gron 6 Round 3 14 Rage 4 Round 3 15 Namovans 3 Round 3 15 Earth Alliance 3 Round 3 17 Sallega 2 Round 3 17 Piundon 2 Round 2 19 Klingon 2 Round 2 20 Teslik 1 Round 2 20 Drakol 1 Round 2 20 Azorani 1 Round 2 20 Praetorians 1 Round 2 20 Colonial 1 Round 1 25 Cylon 0 Round 1 25 Corrian 0 Round 1 25 Romulan 0 Round 1 25 Toltayan 0 Round 1 25 Ekhazan 0 Round 1 25 Shadows 0 Round 1 25 Sergetti 0 Round 1 25 XiChung 0 [ May 24, 2003, 01:26: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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United floras 3
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And congratulations on finishing the running of the second death match. I thought it was an awesome undertaking, with loads of potential value to the modders and the players. Thanks so much! |
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yay! hooray for the Flora!
Thanks a lot for running this extensive contest MB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . And also congrats to you and all the other modders. Rollo |
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And congratulations on finishing the running of the second death match. I thought it was an awesome undertaking, with loads of potential value to the modders and the players. Thanks so much!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks Cybersol! I was running some games with your map. Really liked your job... it's more balanced than the map that I did. Would liked to have this map to run the contest! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But thanks anyway, because will use it in my game test... PS: the "colony bug" still happen to the races that start in the upper side... [ May 26, 2003, 02:26: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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I uploaded it right when I finished it and I'm running SE4Batch on an OLD machine, so I've only done 4 games on it my self. 2 on each side for the Sallega vs. Gron. The Sallega definitely tend to experience the colony bug when on the upper side. But the Gron do not really. Only two trends I noticed. One was that the Sallega use LR Colony ships with no cargo storage and these tend to end up filled with all sorts of mines and fighters. The gron use much higher capacity colony ships and although they sometimes get some non-population cargo, they rarely get completely filled. Does the colony bug correspond with the amount of trash taking up space in a races colony ships? The other trend was that races like the Gron and United Flora that only use a very limited number of colony ships tend to have less severe effects from the bug. Has your vast experience with this bug told you anything? [ May 26, 2003, 13:14: Message edited by: cybersol ] |
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I uploaded it right when I finished it and I'm running SE4Batch on an OLD machine, so I've only done 4 games on it my self. 2 on each side for the Sallega vs. Gron. The Sallega definitely tend to experience the colony bug when on the upper side. But the Gron do not really. Only two trends I noticed. One was that the Sallega use LR Colony ships with no cargo storage and these tend to end up filled with all sorts of mines and fighters. The gron use much higher capacity colony ships and although they sometimes get some non-population cargo, they rarely get completely filled. Does the colony bug correspond with the amount of trash taking up space in a races colony ships? The other trend was that races like the Gron and United Flora that only use a very limited number of colony ships tend to have less severe effects from the bug. Has your vast experience with this bug told you anything?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry for the delay... but right now I'm out of my country and will come back to my house (and computer!), the next week. About my experience about the colony bug, really I don't know. The Gron have a different problem with the colony ships: they only can have 5 colony ships at the same time... it makes that if the AI built 5 Gas Colony ships, will not build more colonies if doesn't exist available planets to colonize. And because they doesn't send ships over minefields, usually they have problems because will not build more colony ships until lose a Gas planet (the example were Gas Colony ships!), or some of the Colony ships was destroyed. All the Rexxx races have this problem, and I saw them work worst starting in the upper side (at least with the old map). Really I'm not sure about the reason. |
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Finally caught up with this thread... thanks again for a wonderful job M_B...
Congrats to the Flora, and Rollo. I am hoping to use the Flora AI in the Invulnerable Challenge I am putting together on PBW. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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