OT: Noob vs Newbie, etc
 

Tangent warning:

I find this an hilarious quibble, considering 'n00b' is simply 'newbie' spelled in 1337-speak (correctly pronounced as two syllables, n00-b), and the term 'newbie' i think is actually backformed from n00b, at least in its internet use. Arguing one is derogatory and the other isn't is like arguing something spelled in cyrillic is derogatory but when its spelled with roman characters it isn't. Its just a different alphabet. noob is of course just an alternate rendering of n00b in the standard roman alphabet.

All of n00b, noob, and newbie can have derogatory connotations depending on the group, but they're simply the same word spelled in different alphabets. Its just a strange claim that only a subset of them is derogatory.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

actually it's pretty different. a newbie is simply a new player. a noob on the other hand doesn't neccessarily have to be a new player, he's more of a "know it all" type who actually doesn't know anything. but because of that he doesn't listen to people who try to help him, via advise, teaching, pointing his mistakes, etc.

so basically a newbie is the "good" type of new player while a "noob", or "n00b" if you wish, is the "bad" type. for example, in Sombre's "how bad is bad" thread, the people he refers to are noobs instead of simply newbies.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Not stranger than many mainstream derogatory terms, if you look at them linguistically. They're often just shortened slang versions of more acceptable terms.

Usage determines whether something is derogatory, not the derivation of the word.

I also doubt that newbie is backformed from n00b. Newbie dates back well before 1337-speak.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

A n00b is just a new-comer (not necessarily player, there are other contexts than games).

I don't find 'n00b' any more derogatory than 'newbie'. Its an alternate spelling of the same word, using a different alphabet. ('noob' is certainly a backformation from the 1337).

I've seen 'newbie' used derogatorily. I've seen n00b used just to mean someone was new with no derogatory connotations. You may choose to be offended by it, but that doesn't make that spelling derogatory on face. I would argue that most communities in which 'n00b' is derogatory, 'newbie' is also derogatory. (The perception of n00bishness being poor is fostered by communities which value 1337ness as the pinnacle of achievement. When being skilled/elite/1337 is the absolute highest value, its opposite will be the lowest value, and hence derogatory).

@thejeff:
Ok, I'd believe it, I just never heard/saw it until after I'd been online, and certainly saw n00b first. (Damn i've been online a long time...)

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

well Squirrelloid, the fact that you don't realize that there is a difference beyond mere "spelling" between the 2 terms is your problem. it doesn't make the difference any less real... instead of arguing about it you should perhaps try to understand it.

let me give you another example, a lot less "politically correct". the N word is considered very offensive. however the original term, with the same spelling, simply meant "black" in Latin. however nowadays its usage is only in an offensive manner. a lot of people don't know Latin, and were not aware that it was actually a real word, however their unawareness doesn't make it any less truthful...

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

First of all, you might want to try actually giving a true example. The 'N word' might be derived from latin 'niger', but its not the same word. Even if it were, you're now talking about a word in english and a word in a different language. n00b is not from a different language, its an alternate spelling of a word in the same language. It'd be like saying 'gray' is offensive but 'grey' is not.

Second, how is your understanding of the word any better than mine? I've seen its use in a multitude of communities over 19 years, and its varied from being an insult to just a general descriptor of skill/familiarity (as has 'newbie' and other spellings, I can't actually think of a community I've been part of that has thought 'newbie' was anything other than an alternate spelling).

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Actually, I'll have to retract the history slightly. Newbie and n00b probably came into online use fairly close to the same time, though newbie has offline roots, but came into much more common use on Usenet. I stand by my assumption that n00b came from newbie, not the other way around, mostly because that derivation is straightforward and I can't even imagine where n00b would have come from if not from newbie.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Well, given the existence of offline antecedents, I will certainly agree n00b came from newbie. I am agnostic at this point as to which was used first online.

If not for the offline sources for newbie (which I hadn't been familiar with), I could imagine n00b being an original construction in 1337 for 'new person'. I mean, its not like original 1337 constructions are unknown ('boxen').

But that n00b is obviously from newbie doesn't mean its online presence didn't originate with the 1337 spelling, since it seems to formerly have been restricted to military jargon (and not even popularized military jargon like asap, or at least I would have thought I'd have encountered it in that case). Its not like the programming community (from which the 1337 community developed) didn't have a history of appropriating military slang (see fubar -> foobar).

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

And the point of this discussion is....?

Lets try not to clog the thread please.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

A basic tenant of anything diplomatic or customer service related is that only those that the term is applied to can say whether or not its offensive. It never really works for people outside of that group to say "you should not be offended by this term". Particularly when the argument is "its just a derivative of" Pick any term for any group thru history if you need examples. Better yet if its one that applies to you. A person can choose to laugh at PC (politically correct) but there is a reason that such thinking exists and gets used. Either choose to honor the request, or dont. But finding it hilarious isnt going to achieve the purpose desired here.

Of course there is always a situation where a person or group proudly takes on a term. But even they usually admit that they have taken a term usually used or taken harshly and owned it. I can think of at least 3 that apply to me in that category.