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OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Reading some Posts here about Australia becoming the next US state, and some other threads about other topics about other issues I started thinking.
Turkey really want to enter the EU but still hasn't qualified. A lot of the former east states in central europe has qualified and will soon become members. But the US wouldn't qualify neither by the economical criteria nor the human right criterias. What are the thoughts on this from you US fellows, are we Europeans squemish about human rights? (I don't think so), aren't you worried about your federal budget defeceit? [ July 26, 2003, 08:35: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
What are the details of exactly how we won't qualify?
Please detail both the requirements and how we don't meet them. Or link to something. I know about the capital punishment thing and no, I don't think you all are squeamish. Having heard of French and Italian prisons I just think you lack follow-through. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ July 25, 2003, 17:08: Message edited by: Loser ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
An American commentator was in Bratislava July 3, giving a speech to the Hayek Foundation. His speech was interesting in that it layed out the cultural and societal differences between Europe and the US today, along with the similarities. The differences go a long way toward demonstrating why a close US-EU relationship (to say nothing of union) would probably not work...
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Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
I really wouldn't mind being a member of the E.U. If it means maintaining a higher standard of living and less seperation between the rich and poor, well sure! The E.U. isn't squeamish on human rights issues, It's just that you don't do anything about them when human rights are being violated. The Europeans whine about the conditions at camp X-Ray, but turn a blind eye to Mozambique, Croatia, Solomons, E. Timor, Kosovo (initially), They wine about air strikes in Iraq but everyday Russia bombs the hell out of Chechnya. Heaven forbid the Europeans should criticize Russia!
I really would like to see the Europeans taking more of an active role in the world and intervening in the worlds hot spots instead of letting the U.S. do it and gripe about it afterward. Oh gawd was that a rant? sorry! Did I go O.T.? Hey I really am for this one world government thing, even if it does sound kinda scary. |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Hmmm... well, maybe we could arrange for just Oregon to join the EU. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Would they take California too? Nah, that's too much to wish for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Actually Northern California?....Sure! Welkome Komrades!
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Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
I suspect it's Southern California he wants to get rid of.
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Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
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As far as Turkey goes, I guess it was considered because it was at least close to Europe Geographically. Geoschmo |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Maastrich economic criteria
Copenhagen criteria for new members. more specifics (Entire treaties can be found here) About human rights issues (Amsterdam treaty) More about human rights and the EU I don't have any statistics showing the percantage of US budget defecit so I can't be sure about it, but a quick opinion based upon scarse facts and much rumours and emotions makes me belive that the US don't meet many critera, am I worng? Perhaps... And I do belive that Geo has a point there.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif [ July 25, 2003, 19:03: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Why would the US want to join the EU? The few products we supply to the EU will be exempted anyway. And the bulk of our exports are NATO contract items. I see the US backing away from the EU. We will reduce our roll in NATO, and shift the cost of defending Europe back to the EU, where it belongs. And let’s not forget that Europe has a long history of letting Nationalism take control of their leadership. With the two big boys removed from the picture, Europe will probably pick up where they left off prior to WW II.
As to the deficit, with 1% loans, we finance it long term and pay it off as the economy recovers. If you guys remember your basic US government classes, the government is expected to run deficits during times of recession, repaying the debt during time of economic growth. The two flaws in today’s deficit are the lack of bond funding of the war, and the lack of job creation in the recovery. The lack of job creation can be laid right at the feet of overseas job outsourcing. And this will most likely become a political issue for the upcoming elections. I look for outsourcing overseas to become a liability for the corporations involved with it. There is already a movement to back away from free trade and a return to status quo arraignments. Canada has already begun to feel the sting from this. There is quite a lot of talk about applying stiff tariffs to imports that originate from overseas companies that receive direct funding from their governments. [ July 25, 2003, 19:10: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
I don't want to get started on a rant here. (Or maybe I do, stay tuned kids). But I do think Geo's got it all sewn up -- geography/cultural norms, etc. preclude a tight organization.
What is the point of the EU? As I understand it, a major reason was to normalize tariffs and strengthen economic power by presenting a unified economic policy across the countries and that's a worthwhile goal. But how could the US join in that regard? If it did who's currency would the Euro trade against so it can grow? I think the US still conducts trade with Europe. And Russia, China, and African and Middle Eastern nations. How close do you have to be to be optimal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif [ July 25, 2003, 19:27: Message edited by: Arkcon ] |
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Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
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Geoschmo |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Unless I'm missing something some people think Europe ends on the est Germany border and including Baltic States into EU is as bizzare as US http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Just for reference: Europe goes up to Ural http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Edit: Oh, yes, I see - it was about Atlantic Ocean http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ July 25, 2003, 19:51: Message edited by: oleg ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
"There is quite a lot of talk about applying stiff tariffs to imports that originate from overseas companies that receive direct funding from their governments."
Which is only fair. Free trade also implies -fair- trade. |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
IIR, The western parts of old Russia were considered part of Europe. When the USSR came on the scene, the demarcation began to move west. Then with almost fifty years of the iron curtain, it became the norm to partition the area based on form of government.
PS: Yep I just looked up Europe in a 1929 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica. And I quote: “Europe within the narrowest of physical limits (to the crest of the Urals and the Manych depression and the Caspian Sea,----)”. About a 1000 words on the boundaries, but I’m not going to type them all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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And how did you guys called for example Bulgaria before 1990 ? Asia ? [ July 25, 2003, 20:01: Message edited by: oleg ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
LOL, those of us who grew up as Americans during the cold war were taught that Bulgaria was deep in the dark evil heart of the communist block. We saw them as munitions suppliers of the Viet Cong. So to be politically correct, we couldn’t include them in the same geographical location as our European allies. Hence, the political partitioning of Europe.
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Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
As I look at the EU, I see it being a smaller Version of the world economic situation. There are the have’s in the west, and the have not’s in the east. There is the old established guard in the west and the re-emerging states in the east. There is religious hatred, racial tension and rampant socialism. (I am getting a feeling of dajavoux here.) There are two economic powerhouses and a few nations that are ripe for the exploitation of cheap labor. As the economic power of the EU grows, Asia and the Americas will move to protect themselves, and this will cause the members of the EU to look inward for markets. The two powers will again be in direct competition with each other. Only this time they will be propping up a common currency. (Now I really have a feeling of dajavoux.) How will the two powers handle this situation as it evolves? Germany will rearm, it will be required that they contribute to keeping the peace in the southeast regions. And they will fear a rearmed Poland, even though they won’t say so publicly. France has already demonstrated that they reject the idea that they are not a superpower, and are actively rearming. Perhaps we are genetically meant to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Note: France has begun to very quietly modernize its nuclear forces. If I were a German that remembers that Last war, I would be calling for a deterrent force for Germany. Remember that it was France that declared war on the Germans. And many Germans still believe that their government was only interested in righting the wrongs of Versailles [sp] and barring the gates to communism. |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
The issue of this thread is not that if US WANT to or CAN join the EU, the issue was that the US don't even fulfill the basic criterias.
Mostly that which also has hindered Turkey from joining; the death penalty. But propably also some minority group issues and some economic issues. That which Thermo says about Germans and French relations propably exists most in his mind and not in reality, the tensions now are mostly between Italy and Germany, tensions spanning from the end of WW2 and the war between them (After Germany occupied nort italy and instituted Mussolini again as a puppet). Relations between Germany and France has propably never been better, and I do not belive any Germans feel threatened by Poland. There are no reasonable possibilities of war inside the current EU for atleast 10-30 years, it might change if Turkey and/or the turkish part of Cyprus gets accepted into the EU, and some of the balkan countries including Serbia want's in. The Coal and Steel union (EU) never existed prior to WW2 and I think that it is a good way to defuse any potential inflammations in Europe. Germany are not required to keep peace in the south-east regions, there is no current large EU military force, there might be in the far future, but now we have only a small fast reaction force. Most military cooperation is carried out in NATO and PFP, security issues are mostly handled in Europe by the OSSE, which is an organisation outside of EU. The south border is guarded by the nations that have those borders. Germany needs it money for other things right now. And EU doesn't consist of two powers, there are alot of countries, including the powerful UK, so far all countries including our small Sweden has equal say in all issues, that might change in the future though. Svensk försvarutredning [ July 25, 2003, 20:51: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Thermo....
France and Britain delivered an ultimatum to Germany on the 1st of Sept to withdraw forces from Poland On the 3rd they declared war when this ultimatum was not met. This is quite well known. |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
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Please go into as much detail as you possibly can, as there is some chance for an anxious person to take offense to this and I am confident that you did not mean this in that sort of way. |
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Deficit? Yeah, I don't like it. But you have to understand, this country runs on the premise that everyone needs to be in debt (spending all their money on crap they don't need so that corporations can make their dollars so that they can donate it to get "their" politicians elected/re-elected so that laws can be passed that benefit the corporations and allow them to make even more profit) and therefore, why not the government as well. Lead by example is what I say! After all, the money at the disposal of the US (and local) governments is there to be used to make sure favors are dispersed to the correct people (and a few dollars returning under the table) so that politicians can "invest" in getting re-elected and keeping the cycle going. There are lots of "cycles", "vicious circles", and "scratch my back and I'll scratch your back" practices that have been going on for many many years. Just to darn bad the "lessor gods" don't understand there is an end to it coming. After all, we can't do ALL the US manufacturing outside the borders, all the IT support and design outside the borders, buy most of our energy outside the borders, have trade agreements with countries that continually favor the other countries, etc. So, you see, those coffers you speak of are there for the legitimate looting of by the elected politicians. (of course, as long as a few bones are thrown to the "sheep" once in a while, it's OK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). [ July 25, 2003, 21:01: Message edited by: Slynky ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
About minority Groups I have no facts, just observations from my travel there as to how a lot of the native americans, asians, hispanics and afroamericans are treated, and how much of that bad treatment is allowed and systemized, I don't say that there is no racism here in Europe, far from it, but there is more struggle against it from goverments I belive. (Don't really know much about the current US govt's struggle against it though!)
I was just wondering, how big is the current defecit in the US budget right now. I now that it's big but so is the entire US budget, so in percantage it mightn't be that big. 3% is allowed in the EMU. Spanking children???? Do you spank your grown up friends? Why not? Becourse they can fight back?? I've never been hit by my parents, I've never hit my kids and never will. As it is Banned to physicly harm your kids (spanking) here in Sweden, spanking isn't very common, the rate of violent injuries and deaths among children has also decreased since that law was made in 1979. And compared to countries where spanking is allowed the violence against kids (death by violence) is far lower in countries where it is Banned. Hitting your child means you've failed as an adult, you propably feel powerless and can't find any other way, it can't possibly be for the best of the child, saying that is really sick! [ July 25, 2003, 21:40: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
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The US state of California alone is about $30+ billion in the hole, and the inept, spend-happy governor (Gray Davis) is about to get the axe for it soon in a recall election. |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
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The US state of California alone is about $30+ billion in the hole, and the inept, spend-happy governor (Gray Davis) is about to get the axe for it soon in a recall election.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep, alot of money. But so is the US budget aswell, Do you now any % number? (BTW, this thread is started only becourse I haven't gotten any PBW turn tonight!) [ July 25, 2003, 22:11: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
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Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
About spanking:
In 1992 Accidental deaths in US was 13.3 in 100 000 and in sweden 5. In 1965, half of the Swedish population believed that physical punishment is necessary in childrearing, only 6% of Swedes born since that time support its use today (SIFO, 1981; SCB, 1996). The implications of such a societal shift for reducing child physical abuse may be revealed in the following statistic: between 1975 and 1996, only four children died in Sweden from the effects of physical abuse ---------------------------------------------- "Haeuser points out that an interesting change in Swedish childrearing has occurred since passage of the 1979 law. By 1988, the picture had changed markedly. Child guidance professionals were admitting that permissive childrearing was a failed experiment, and parent educators were telling parents to "dare to be parents." She saw parents setting limits and disciplining their children - partly because the professionals were now giving this sort of advice, partly because the sociopolitical climate had become more conservative, and partly because the 1979 law had forced parents to think about childrearing options. Swedish parents now discipline their children; and in doing so, they rely on a variety of alternatives to physical punishment. The method most commonly used is verbal conflict resolution, which invites parents as well as children to express their anger in words. Haeuser, whose Last study was more than a decade ago, concludes that the law appears to be effective and has demonstrated that it is indeed possible to bring up children without smacking and spanking." ----------------------------------- In an article entitled, Spanking of Children Much Less Common, on the Statistics Sweden website, Sanden and Lundgren conclude that a clear majority of the Swedish people are against all forms of physical punishment of children. Of pupils born abroad coming to Sweden after 1990, 21 per cent have been subjected to occasional physical punishment in comparison to four per cent of all children born in Sweden. This information was taken from two surveys commissioned by the Ministry of Health and Social Affairs in the Spring of 1994 and 1995 and which were carried out by Statistics Sweden. http://www.nospank.net/durrant.htm [ July 25, 2003, 22:16: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
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Now, from a guy without credentials in all this sort of stuff, all I can say is that even with these types of laws and rules, the US still has a shameful amount of infant deaths due to physical abuse. My opinion is that, regardless of the laws, idiots and *******s will physically harm their children. And, if spanking were allowed, responsible parents would deal that type of punishment out in an organized manner without any harm to the child other than some stinging. Now, we don't spank our kids any more. We stopped when they were able to understand enough english to know that what they did was wrong and "this" is what their punishment is/was (around 2-3 years old). But, considering what I see around me, read in the papers, see on TV, hear on the radio, our youth, which receives much less corporal punishment than it did 40 years ago, is much more violent, much more likely to kill parents, schoolmates, and complete strangers. (of course, this Last statement, I feel, isn't just due to lack of any painful and corrective spankings while growing up, it's due to MANY other factors, worthy of its own thread). I was spanked when I was very bad growing up. I think I deserved it. I didn't leave my parents with much choice. So, am I "screwed up" because of it? I doubt it. |
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Why would you subject your kids to that feeling? Has juvenile violence really increased? Propably not very much; (US links) http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/chap-2.htm http://accuracy.org/press_releases/PR051099.htm [ July 25, 2003, 22:26: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Now that I have stirred up a discussion I can go to bed, see ya all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
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Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
"In 1992 Accidental deaths in US was 13.3 in 100 000 and in sweden 5."
Population of Sweden: 8 million Population of the US: 287 million. Thanks for bringing that little difference up too. It makes you so much more persuasive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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In Sweden, if I got drunk and killed someone in a car accident, what would happen to me as a first offense? Would I get my license back? Would I go to jail? What if I didn’t hurt anyone just wrecked my car? What would the penalty for that be? In America we do put people to death for high crimes and attacks of an exceptionally violent nature. But on the other side of the coin, we let a lot of people off very lightly. And the vast majority of convicts on death row are repeat offenders. |
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And not all spanking even causes DISCOMFORT; a quick swat on a well-padded-by-a-diaper bottom doesn't do much except guarantee you have that particular unruly smallfry's attention, but good. Generally, nonphysical forms of discipline and behavior-reinforcement are far and above the preferable approaches; one good one (that grows MORE effective as the child hits adolescence, up to about 16 or 17) is the age-old, tried-and-true "go sit/stand in that corner for X minutes" ... believe me, it's highly effective. To the very young, 5 minutes is a literal eternity. To young adolescents, sitting in the corner for ONE minute is humiliatingly embarrassing. Either way, the point is made: do something inappropriate, suffer something unpleasant as a consequence. But again ... some children and youths simply will not respond to anything less than some physical discomfort -- including spankings. So, as a Last resort is, IMO, acceptible, so long as "Last resort" means "all else has been tried, and has completely failed." And at any rate, it should never be done while the disciplining adult is angry. And with that said: yes, I would put a fellow adult over my knee and tan their backside, given three things: (a) the authority and jurisdiction, (b) sufficient cause, and (c) the exhaustion of alternate remedies or solutions. And those three things are the case regardless of age: authority and sufficient cause combined with having exhausted alternate means of resolving the issue. |
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Thanks for understanding that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif [ July 25, 2003, 23:39: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
U.S. budget deficit put at $455 billion. This from an article published on the 16th. Income is down and expected to top out at 1.8 trillion. But, if the upturn continues, this is expected to rise to 2.6 trillion after the 4th quarter returns. It’s bad, but it has been worse in the past. You can bet that higher taxes will return, and cuts to services will be around the bend. It cost money to play war games for real.
A note on state budgets, many of the short falls were caused by the over-reliance on investment income. And many of the states hardest hit had spent this year’s money covering Last years bills, as they had done the prior three years. Paying Last years bills the day the new physical year starts does this. Sitting governors are often reluctant to force cuts; this is left until after the election. But by then the cycle is out of control. When you take this type of accounting and toss in a market that plummets, you have a disaster. There are a few states that chose to maintain their bond Ratings at the expense of the budget. My state is one of them. When the reserve fund value dropped off the chart, it was all in stocks and securities, general funds were added to maintain the value. This caused a tremendous hit on the budget. As did the return to physical accounting. We had a one party system here; the other party held only a few seats in the legislature. And as always happens, there was no one to say NO! So we spent away a fortune in tobacco money just because it was there. Problem is that now that it’s gone no one can seem to remember what we got for it. |
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In Sweden, if I got drunk and killed someone in a car accident, what would happen to me as a first offense? Would I get my license back? Would I go to jail? What if I didn’t hurt anyone just wrecked my car? What would the penalty for that be? In America we do put people to death for high crimes and attacks of an exceptionally violent nature. But on the other side of the coin, we let a lot of people off very lightly. And the vast majority of convicts on death row are repeat offenders.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Killing someone while driving drunk will put you in prison for a couple of years, not sure how many, I'd guess 0.5-6 years depending on circumstances (prior history etc) When taking the license become more expansive a couple of years ago the traffic deaths decreased alot, now I'd guess it costs approx 1-200 dollars if you take it through a driving school, you can do it cheaper by having a parent or friend as driving instructor, but those who do seldom pass on the first attempt. Now I'm really off to bed so if Phoenix-D still don't understand statistics I'll have to explain it better tomorrow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif [ July 25, 2003, 23:40: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Well, I can say this, most Brits hate the fact that we are apart of the EU because of how they have decided to screw up our justice system, need I say more?
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Our justice system hasn't changed very much since joining EU (I voted against joining though) |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Tks Pax (how much do I owe you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) (J/K)
Sometimes, I think 2 or 3 swats on the butt (and 5 minutes of crying and injured feelings) would be more acceptable than some of the punishments that were dealt out in this household. Our 8-year old (really, too old to spank) stole/took some Pokemon cards from a playmate. When I found out, I hit the roof. Stealing is abhorent to me. So, she had 2 weeks restriction to the house, no TV, no PC, no Gameboy, no Nintendo, no phonecalls...you get the idea. She thought it was a living hell. But, all I can add to what Pax has said is that when administered under calm conditions, and it is over, you hold the child and talk to him/er. The Last time I spanked her was when she was about 4 or 5. When it was over, and I was back in our bedroom, I cried. But, I have seen parents yank their children by the arm (several possibilities for injury), slap them in the face (more possibilities), and throw them into the back seat of their car (in a parking lot). That's wrong. As to my comparison with the death penalty? I just think some people don't belong in society. Usually, they've proved it several times over. For all the bleeding hearts out there, how would you feel if a person had been declared rehabilitated from raping, murdering, and dancing in the blood of an 8-year-old girl as a culmination to many other "black marks" on their history moving into the apartment/house beside you? I guess that's just fine with you. Not with me. I don't believe in hanging them, chopping off their head, electrocution, or gas. Just insert the needle and put them to sleep, permanently. |
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... Wait ... did I say that out loud? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif hehehe. Quote:
But in the meantime, the brat is screaming loud enough that I am getting a splitting headache, and am no longer enjoying the meal I've paid for, the movie I bought tickets for, etc, etc, etc. And yes -- been there, done that, watched the establishment's management wring their hands impotently when complained-to. There's something to be said for nonphysical discipline. However, there's nothing good that can be said about no discipline. Quote:
Step one: no more plea bargains that change the actual charge; cooperating in solving other crimes may pass for mitigating circumstances when it comes to sentencing, but X crime is always X crime, not Y and/or Z lesser crimes if you play nicey-nice after the fact. Step two: if you are convicted, serve your time, and re-offend, the sentence for your second offense is automatically extended by the entire term of ALL prior sentences; you pay any FINES over again, you do any TIME over again, etc. Obviously you didn't learn your lesson the first time around, so, you should try again from the beginning. Step three: institute a sort of "three strikes" program. Assign comparative-weight point values to various crimes (or ranges thereof, to account for differences in which acts constitute X criminal act(s)). Pick a good, solid point total and draw a line. Anyone who accumulates that many (or more) points, is faced with a choice: you have 48 hours to leave the country forever, or, choose to have your life terminated in a humane fashion, chosen by you form a list of approved methods. (inability to find a nation willing to accept you is your problem). Step four: ditch the majority of privileges in prisons. This doesn't have to be cruel; you can keep TV available ... in a single TV room per block of cells, with access only to news and educational programming. Eliminate this "no convict labor" nonsense; make the convicts do some form of work ... the army needs uniforms? Fine, build the right facility onto the prison, and have a company come in and manage the process. No competition with the private sector (youw on't be making Levis in there, just stuff for government consumption). Similar could be done for basic tools, stationary/letterhead for government offices, and so on. Pay participating convicts a (very) small stipend, set up a commissary in the prison, and if they want cigaretts or a candy bar or whatever, they can pay it out of their salary. No job, no money; no money, no luxuries. Get in a fight and break something, get billed for it -- no luxuries until the bill is paid, 'cause the whole stipend goes towards that cost. ... Would it be perfect? Heck, no. But it'd be somethign we haven't TRIED yet, withotu being (IMO) inhumane or needlessly cruel. |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
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... at which point you still had to get yoru actual liscense, which was yet more money (not to mention having to get a learner's permit before you could take those lessons in the first place). And the expense of providing a vehicle for your test (most driving schools would provide one of theirs, for about the cost of one lesson). All told, it could cost from about $300US to almost $600US to get a license ... and that was nearly fifteen years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if it was $80-$100 per lesson now ... not in the slightest. That'd mean double those total amounts, mind. |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
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The world would have been a very different place if England and France had not had the courage to draw that line in the sand. So say they started the war if you want, but thank God they did. Geoscmo [ July 26, 2003, 00:25: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
Germany only had to fight on two fronts because they attacked the Russians long before it was wise to do so. If they had kept their non-aggression treaty with them, they would have been able to overwhelm England, and then it would have been really, really difficult for the US to have a chance of helping out and finally defeating them.
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Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
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Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
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It's no secret that Germany made a lot of mistakes. We were in a lot of ways very lucky that the war turned out he way it did. But many of those mistakes were forced errors because England and France did not continue to appease Hitler and the way he expected them to do. This caused him to have to change plans and improvise, something he didn't do very well. Geoschmo |
Re: OT:US don\'t qualify for EU membership, don\'t spank children, WW2 history.
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