questions about devnull mod
 

Two questions (bear in mind that I'm at work and haven't actually installed the files--just looked at the readmes):

1. There are all sorts of changes and additions. The readme gives Version history but doesn't actually explain what the new weapons, etc., are or how they work. Shouldn't there be some text somewhere explaining in detail--such as a manual--what everything is, how the changes are intended to affect gameplay, etc.? (The only thing that gets explained in detail are the space monsters.) If I install, I feel like I'm going in completely blind, with no clue how to change my play style to account for changes to the base game.

2. How does the mod work with TDM AIs? I notice in the readme for the Vikings, for example, that it says you shouldn't combine it with other mods. But is this devnull Vikings AI the same as the TDM AI (and I'm assuming the TDM AIs are considered the "gold standard")? If not, what sort of tradeoff will I have to take for using one or the other? And what about the many other TDM AIs that don't appear as devnull AIs? Do I just have to do without them or just use the stock AIs in that case (yuck)?

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

there is a whole devnull thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

read it...
but seriously, learn to play with mods (ie, learn mods) by doing a fake game with max tech, max racial points, and that way you can see all the stuff in the game right away...

design a few ships and learn

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sigh.

I suppose I could do that.

But I think when you have a mod that is this wide-ranging it's just professional to include the equivalent of a manual. There are several reasons why this just makes good sense but for me one is I have a busy life and don't really have the time or the inclination to wade through everything first-hand, searching through this, that and the other thing, staging mock games to figure it out by trial and error, and asking question after question on the forums. The game is already complex enough as it is and I don't think this sort of thing helps attract more players.

Maybe when I get the chance I'll have a look.

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

Perhaps you could find something on the SE4 Site Directory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Devnull does not have many huge radical changes, just lots of tweaks (except for monsters, but you don't play as them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). A comprehensive manual does not make too much sense for it (or most other mods).

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

Hmm, considering that the makers of Devnull made the mod for free and you're not paying anything for it, it seems to me that asking them to make a manual to go along with it seems a bit ungrateful. Hey, if you get familiar with the mod, why not write a manual of your own and post it here? I'm sure everyone will appreciate it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

Also consider, someone started the Devnull mod -- I then other people took over when he didn't have time. So a simple, yet complete manual isn't going to be easy.

Search for original thread on the mod. Whatever concept started Devnullicus(?sp) on the path to the mod is the bast simple explanation for what the "flavor" he was working for in this mod.

I gotta say 'tho. I play mods mostly because they are unfamilliar to me. That's part of the fun. Give the AI only a low bonus, and they can still beat you.

[ July 26, 2003, 00:18: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I see binford has put together a kind of manual that explains the base changes and that helps.

And yes, maybe it SOUNDS ungrateful but I did say it just seems to be good sense. Of course it's fabulous that someone in the community took the time to mke the mod. But honestly, if you're going to go to the trouble of making so many changes, why WOULDN'T you also include some kind of explanation of what has been changed? Otherwise, it's too much of an "in-crowd" thing in which the only people likely to play it are the ones who have lots of time on their hands and can be bothered to sift through it all.

A "manual" (and what I'm talking about here wouldn't be a full manual by any means--just a few notes of explanation like binford has done so I have some context within which to understand what I'm reading in the Version history) isn't really an "extra," in my opinion. It isn't something you forego because you're doing it for free. It's an INTEGRAL part of the game because it allows players to get right to playing the game instead of making figuring the game out an exercise in itself.

(Look at MOO3--not free, I know, but ... Complex game, shipped with a manual, I hear, but one so poor that it contributed incalculably to the game's dismal reception and almost certainly turned away many potential purchasers before they got near the game. Who knows how things might have gone if a proper manual had shipped with it?)

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

Yeah, a little text blurb describing the mod would help, 'tho you said it was there. I never cheked myself, just played it and got toasted by the monsters. Have you seen this web page: web page Click

I found it with a search on google. Or is it the same as what's in the readme in the zip?

[ July 26, 2003, 01:23: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

Mods do not require any "manuals"... simple readmes suffice...

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

the deal is, there is a little too many changes there in DevNull to list them all - but on the other hand they're not drastic enough to make it difficult to play. Actually, you can play DNM on PBW and learn in progress. I did that.

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

1) Like others have said before. I think Devnull Mod is a good one to learn as you play. The main change is that PDC does also sweep mines. But PDC can only target seekers. If you want PD against units also, you need Anti-fighter missiles (research Point-defense and also fighters tech for higher levels).

2) about the AI: TDM AI will not work correctly in Devnull Mod. The Vikings AI for Devnull as well as all the other AI have been adopted specificly for the mod. And don't use stock AI either. Just use the AI that comes with the mod.

Rollo

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And when you start paying $10US to the authors of the mod (each and every one; DevNull has changedhands more than once), maybe they will oblige you. Maybe. But I wouldn't hold my breath, were I you.

...

Look, no offense, but ... it's free; don't you think you're being just a BIT ungrateful, here? A mod is a LOT of work in and of itself (as I have discovered the hard way with the STILL-unfinished "Exodus" mod), if you do more than tweak a few minor things here and there. Try it sometime, you'll see what I mean.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And the authors of mods have lives, too. It already takes a lot of work to craft a new mod out of whole cloth (easily into the hundreds of man-hours for th really big ones).

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">See the irony? You say "a little too many changes ... to list them all." That, of course, is the VERY REASON why the mod should also include some sort of explanation of its features.

If it was a mod where superficial and/or few changes had been made, sure, of course there may not be a need for a readme (I'll say "readme" because some people are getting stuck on "manual" and I don't mean a literal manual).

But some of you have got it the wrong way around and appear to be saying that the more changes there are, the less need there is for explanation. And that just doesn't make any sense to me.

As for PBW, I don't have any sort of time to try anything like that so that's not an option for me. I might play a lot for a week or two and then not play again for three months.

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

There is a world of difference between a manual and a readme. The terms are certainly not interchangeable. A manual is an in-depth analysis of everything in the mod. A readme often includes a superficial overview of the mod.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Such as who?

[ July 28, 2003, 00:47: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you're really misunderstanding me. This has got absolutely nothing to do with being grateful or ungrateful, free or not free. I didn't know what the mod did (until I found binford's write-up) so an explanation seems natural. Presumably, the people who made the mod had to consider what changes they were making, why they were making them, what the balances would be, what the new equipment would be, and so on, and in the course of that would have written something down. Whatever that was that they wrote down would have been fine if included in the mod (again, Binford did it and that's great)--you know, "we added x, y, z and they do a, b, c," that's all. If you're going to go to the trouble of modding, why not ensure everyone knows what the mod is/does?

An analogy would be if one technologically advanced society built a nuclear reactor (or a toaster) for a less advanced society but gave the latter no clue as to what it was or how to operate it properly ("What does this red button do?" "Oh, just fiddle around with it until you figure it out."). Then the advanced society says to the other, "You should just be grateful we gave you this incredibly powerful way to make lots of energy. Never mind training your engineers."

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, so you spend "hundreds of man-hours" creating these mods but leave out the instructions at the end? (Ironically, the part that would take the least amount of time to do.)

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right--a readme would do. Just like binford provided. The term escaped me at first so I stuck in the word manual. But obviously, there's no need for a manual with a game that already shipped with a manual.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Such as taera.

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

I think Binfords site http://jeffleggett.com/devnull.html gives a very good summary of the differences betweeen stock SE4 and Devnull Mod and can be considered a manual.
Good job, Binford.

Rollo

[ July 28, 2003, 00:57: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

Taera said that there are a lot of minor changes that do not require much extra learning (if any). He did not say that having more changes means there is less need of an explanation.

Mods do require readmes, yes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: questions about devnull mod
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He did not say that. He said, and I quote, verbatim from his post, "the deal is, there is a little too many changes there in DevNull to list them all ..."

Clearly, he's suggesting that there are so many changes that it's maybe too time-consuming (or something) to list them. And I'm saying that the very fact there are "so many" changes is the reason there should be an explanation included. If there were "few" changes, I'd be less likely to need a readme.