Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

We should compile a list of all tactics that are considered gamey by a significant portion of the players and all "features" that are often regarded as bugs. This would greatly aide PBW game hosts in that they could simply take the list and say what is allowed and what is not. This is NOT to be a discussion of whether something is gamey or not, only to compile a list of what can be considered gamey (by more than just a couple people, of course, so the list does not get out of hand).

1. Having AIs in the game.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Tech sharing.
11. Gifting/trading population.
12. Gifting/trading colony techs.

[ July 27, 2003, 21:36: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ho-Kay. But the Last time I started a thread like this, to write a consice Encyclopedia Malfadorica entry, people said I was trolling.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 1. Having AIs in the game.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 3. Retroseries building.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif 4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif 5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif to all of 7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Tech sharing.
11. Gifting/trading population.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif 12. Gifting/trading colony techs.

[ July 27, 2003, 22:03: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

I did not want your opinion on whether something was gamey or not (or anyone's for that matter), just to make a list of what can be considered gamey. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I fail to see how that could be considered trolling... what was the thread?

[ July 27, 2003, 22:20: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

min/maxing racial designs, eventually forcing everyone to do the same. not counting small games.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Please do not post reasons for why you think something is gamey. I do not care, and it is beyond the scope of this thread. All that you are allowed to post is something that might be gamey.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

making smarter discisions than your opponents, that will eventually win you the game

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Take it to another thread. Thank you.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

1. Having AIs in the game.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Tech sharing.
11. Gifting/trading population.
12. Gifting/trading colony techs.
13. Min/maxing empire setup.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

So if I understand correctly you don't care if we think they are gamey or not, you just want a list for referance of things that some might consider gamey. Ok.

How about allies laying mines in the same sector to exceed the normal 100 mine limit?

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Yes, you understand. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

1. Having AIs in the game.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Tech sharing.
11. Gifting/trading population.
12. Gifting/trading colony techs.
13. Min/maxing empire setup.
14. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">y not just say surrendering period then? lol...

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">y not just say surrendering period then? lol...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The point is it's a list that game owners can choose from. They probably wouldn't ban all of these separatly or they would just say no surender. But they might want one or a couple not allowed but the others to be allowed.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

15. Putting weapons on your ship designs.

Rollo (*in trollish mood today)

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

All four of those forms of surrendering are completely different uses of the surrender option.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">9b. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.

(I think this is significantly differant from 9.)

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

I wonder if this list might be simpler if the things the game allowed you to ban were left out? or perhaps in a separate list. I mean if the host intentionally left certain options on they really can't be considered gamey for that game.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Turtling yourself into a corner. (Using Warp closers and system shields)

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Declearing war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't. As I said previously, just allowing the Surrender option to be enabled DOES NOT mean that every possible use of it is to be considered allowed. You could leave it on for the purpose of allowing a defeated empire to surrender, but still not want merging empires to be allowed.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

1. Having AIs in the game.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't. As I said previously, just allowing the Surrender option to be enabled DOES NOT mean that every possible use of it is to be considered allowed. You could leave it on for the purpose of allowing a defeated empire to surrender, but still not want merging empires to be allowed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yea I agree. I was refering more to the "AI's in game" and the Intel one. I just suggested it because I suspect this list is in danger of getting too huge. I hope you can get something workable and somewhat short cause it's a good idea.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

How 'bout:

Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He does sort of have a point here. Not really as a discusion of whether it's gamey or not, since you didn't want to get into that. But from "a making the list" clear and consise perspective. Although there are some AI aspects that probably should be included, such as making trades with them and stuff. But if the list is for game owners to use to set up house rules ( I think that is what you are getting at anyway) then "having AI's in the game" is not really nessecary as it's not practical as a house rule. They will either be there or they won't depending on how the game owner sets it up and the players can't do anything to get around it.

Geoschmo

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

We could make a separate list for AI interactions... but, the new number one pretty much covers it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Gifting/trading ships (or did you mean to leave that out?)

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
disagree
3. Retroseries building.
disagree
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
disagree ( depends on rules )
8. Intelligence projects.
disagree ( depends on rules )
9. Gifting/trading planets.
disagree ( depends on rules )
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
disagree ( depends on rules and the eventual outcome of the agreement )
11. Tech sharing.
disagree ( depends on rules )
12. Gifting/trading population.disagree ( depends on rules )
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
disagree ( depends on rules )
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
disagree ( depends on rules )
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
disagree ( depends on rules )
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
disagree ( depends on rules and how long they do it for)

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Mothballing ships to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Tesco, please take that to another thread. Again, this is NOT a list of things that ARE gamey, it is a list of things that MIGHT BE gamey, and are what game hosts need to consider when setting up the game. What they decide to state as allowed or not is up to them.

[ July 28, 2003, 01:40: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Tesco, again the objective is not to generate a discussion as to whether any of these are gamey. It's simply intended to be a list for referance by game owners so they can decide what is and isn't going to be allowed in their games. It's to be used only as a checklist so they don't forget something and have it come back to bite them later in the game.

Geoschmo

Edit, too slow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ July 28, 2003, 01:42: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Geo, do you think you could get some form of this list once it is completed in the default game description when creating a new game on PBW? Or if you do not want it there, at least in a very noticeable place in the game creation page, such as a link towards the top of it.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know if the whole list is necceasary, but we could revise what is currently there and put some sort of reminder to the game owners to consider these kinds of things when setting up the game.

Geoschmo

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Hence, "some form of the list". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Thanks!

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A really good topic Fyron!! Thanks!
Oh, by the way, why exchange population would be gamey???

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Just kidding, just kidding.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Maybe a link to some place you can keep the list updated. As new bug exploits are discovered and if and when any patches coem out the list will likely change.

Geoschmo

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

So about the bug exploits half... what are all the bugs that can be exploited in 1.84?

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ohh.. now see I did point to the Encyclopedia Malfadoria entry way back when. Click this link: Now there was some disagreement back then on the content, but since anyone can edit, isn't it the ideal place for such a list?

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ohh.. now see I did point to the Encyclopedia Malfadoria entry way back when. Click this link: Now there was some disagreement back then on the content, but since anyone can edit, isn't it the ideal place for such a list?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually that might be the best place for it.

Geoschmo

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Oh hey Fyron, not sure how we missed this one....

Players unilaterally declaring allied victory.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Not sure "Intelligence Projects" should be listed. First of all, it's most assuredly not in the realm of gamey. Secondly, it's really just one item of a list of items any person creating a game might want to disallow. For instance, a person could create a game that didn't use missiles or mines or stellar manip. Not because they are gamey...just to create a game without that particular component. To me, intel is just another feature/item (or whatever) that a person might not want in their game. So, I'd suggest removing it and adding a item called (something like) "Areas not allowed as specified at game setup (e.g., intel, ruins, mines, etc.)"

Just a thought.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Again, this is not a discussion thread. All I will say is that the entire Intelligence system of SE4 is completely screwey, and using it is very, very gamey. It stays on the list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And either way, it is something that every game host needs to sit down and think about wether allowing it or not in the game. It is just such a horrible system that it generally has the effect of ruining games instead of making them more fun.

[ July 28, 2003, 06:14: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope. I doubt most people read it very often. I know I certainly do not read it very often. Being on the game creation place at PBW is THE BEST place for this to be. It can be in both places, sure. But, it is still imperative that it be on the PBW site.

Didn't mean to have two Posts... oh well... not as if my post count is really affected by it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Mothballing ships to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.
23. Allied victory or Last Man Standing victory conditions must be chosen and declared, or there will usually be some friction towards the end of the game.

[ July 28, 2003, 06:17: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope. I doubt most people read it very often. I know I certainly do not read it very often. Being on the game creation place at PBW is THE BEST place for this to be. It can be in both places, sure. But, it is still imperative that it be on the PBW site.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wasn't really clear on what I meant there. I still intend to update the game creation page to remind owners to consider these points. But per our conversation Last night I never intended to include the whole list in the game setup script. I was just going to briefly mention it and include a link to a page with the complete updated list. As far as where to put the updated list I the Encyclopedia Malfadorica is ideal because then the community can contribute to keeping it updated.

Geoschmo

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mothballing ships won't get you over the maximum limit.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought this was inconsequential; first one empires mines are swept, then the next. All you need is 100 minesweeping capability.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

The Talisman
Bezerker

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

Oh heck, while we're attempting a cannonical list :

16 and one half: Missing several turns without explanation

[ July 28, 2003, 16:47: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought this was inconsequential; first one empires mines are swept, then the next. All you need is 100 minesweeping capability.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, but no sir. I would provide witnesses, but all of them are in dead fleets. The (default) limit is 100 mines per sector per empire. This means that the maximum number of mines in a sector is 100 * (No. of players). Note that 2 players must have a peace treaty in order to co-mine a sector. They still follow the rule of only enemy mines "attack" your ships. But if you don't have a peace treaty with the owners of those mines, you could potentially face 100 * (No. of players -1) mines in a sector. So 100 minesweeping capability will NOT protect you against this tactic. I am not sure on the order of sweeping in this case. Probably like the default: first laid = first swept.

On the subject of "gamey", I think this is perfectly legitimate gameplay.

Slick.

[ July 28, 2003, 16:47: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, please post nothing of this sort in this thread. It does not matter if you think a particular item is gamey or not. Some people do, so it goes on the list.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mothballing ships won't get you over the maximum limit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes it will. Mothballed ships do not count towards your ship total.

[ July 28, 2003, 17:53: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mothballing ships won't get you over the maximum limit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes it will. Mothballed ships do not count towards your ship total.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Asmala is correct here. I explained this the Last time it came up but you might have missed it. It was towards the end of the conversation.

The mothballed ships don't show up in the score screen, but they do show up in the ships screen and they will stop you from building new ships and getting over the ship limit.

Geoschmo

[ July 28, 2003, 17:56: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">These don't really fit the role of gamey tactics. Though technically, Berzerkers falls under the min/maxing Category, and Talismans does sort of too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geo:
Seems I was mislead in a game I was hosting with a 100 ship limit. Oh well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

1. Trading with AIs.
2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
3. Retroseries building.
4. Surrendering to allies to merge empires together.
5. Surrendering to an ally or other 3rd party to keep what is left of your empire from going to the enemy.
6. Surrendering your empire when you just want to leave the game.
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
8. Intelligence projects.
9. Gifting/trading planets.
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
11. Tech sharing.
12. Gifting/trading population.
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
17. Declaring war on an ally and attacking at the same turn.
18. Moving ships over enemy planets and then declaring war to bypass mine fields.
19. Email diplomacy between players when races haven't met in the game yet.
20. Gifting/trading ships.
21. Gifting ships to an ally to get around the maximum ship limits.
22. Allied victory or Last Man Standing victory conditions must be chosen and declared, or there will usually be some friction towards the end of the game.

[ July 28, 2003, 18:09: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]