Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

2. Building multiple training facilities on each planet in a sector (moons) to multiply the training rate.
disagree
3. Retroseries building.
disagree
7. Surrendering to the empire attacking you.
disagree ( depends on rules )
8. Intelligence projects.
disagree ( depends on rules )
9. Gifting/trading planets.
disagree ( depends on rules )
10. Gifting a planet for the primary purpose of keeping an another player alive.
disagree ( depends on rules and the eventual outcome of the agreement )
11. Tech sharing.
disagree ( depends on rules )
12. Gifting/trading population.disagree ( depends on rules )
13. Gifting/trading colony techs.
disagree ( depends on rules )
14. Min/maxing empire setup.
disagree ( depends on rules )
15. Allies laying mines in the same sector to get more than 100 mines in it.
disagree ( depends on rules )
16. Turtling yourself into a corner using Warp Point closers and System Gravitational Shields.
disagree ( depends on rules and how long they do it for)

Bah

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

Tesco, I am not sure what the point of your initial post is. Most of the items you have marked as "Depends on Rules". Does that mean you only think they are wrong to do if they are specifically mentioned by the game owner? If that is what you mean, that is exactly the reason Fyron included them in the list in the other thread. It's not intended to be a declarative list of things that are gamey. It's intended to be a list of things that are considered gamey by some people so the game owner would be advised to mention specifically at game setup if they are to be allowed. It's supposed to be a list of things to discuss prior to the game so that the game owner doesn't find himself in a situation after someone has done it in the game. New game owners may not know about all these possible issues, or anyone could simply forget one or two. Or worst of all the game owner could be aware of them but make an assumption that everyone thinks it is or isn't gamey and expect everyone else to think likewise. Using this list can help avoid those bad situations.

Geoschmo

[ July 28, 2003, 04:10: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

PVK: <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What does ramming have to do with gameyness?

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

geo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

"What does ramming have to do with gameyness?"

It has nothing to do with speed, it doesn't miss, you can ram entire -stacks- of fighters..stuff like that.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But you can not ram fighters in simultaneous turn games. And for solo games, there is no such thing as a "gamey"

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

Ramming can be seen as extremely gamey, depending on whether players are more interested in things making sense, or more interested in gameplay.

For competetive gameplay, it is a sort-of-balanced option for ship designs to deal with superior enemies. It's kind of buggy, though.

From a "making sense" standpoint, I'd say it's utter nonsense. It doesn't make any sense that if one fleet is incapable of hitting an enemy with a weapon at range 1 (or zero), that they should have a 100% chance to ram the enemy. This is especially true considering the ship speeds, weapon ranges, "I go, you go" movement sequencing, and the need to rely on the AI during PBEM/PBW play.

Plenty of gamey objections. It's a crude game mechanic, with many dubious results.

In these ways, it seems that some players might prefer to play with a house rule not to include ramming, so it would warrant a place on the list.

PvK

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

me and a few others have talked about the real problem with se4 gold remaining...

initiative...

currently, going first in battle is a HUGE advantage since most of the time you end up withing weapons range right away, esp in big battles

currently, there seems to be no way to predict who goes first -- it really should be based on ship speed imho and it should be 'staggered'... ie, fastest ships first, regardless of 'turn'...

ie, my speed 10 ships go first, then your 9's, then my 8's, (and your 8's, interleaved ideally), then my 7's... blah blah

consequence is that ramming tactic can really beat superior forces if they get to go first... which is just plain wrong

fix initiative and then ramming is perfectly fine imho

please get aaron to patch this, it really is the most glaring balance issue in se4gold today imho

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">While I can't disagree with you one bit, any sort of initiative system improvements are likely to be fairly complex changes and extremely unlikely during the remaining life of SE4. It's something that would require pretty much a rewrite, not so much a patch. However, I have high hopes that SE5 will have big improvements in that area particularly.

Geoschmo

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

yea... i do not mind ships going first... but i think that speed along does not dictate which ship fires first.

You would think that most ships that are equal would all fire at the same time ( unless surprised )

So perhaps you have initivitive on weapons ( and then bonuses due to experience , computers )and minuses on ( surprise , damage , morale )

That way if 2 ships meet and one is destroyed ( perhaps they got their weapons off )

Hmmm oppertunity fire so if ship a moves within range of b weapons then b fires on the other players turn.... ( mind you they will not be able to fire on their turn as they used the weapon ... pretend real time )

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

Well... it is likely that SE5 will have real time combat execution, which automatically factors in initiative stuff and elimates the dozens of idiosyncracies inherent in any turn based movement system. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK, I am not convinced that really has to do with gameyness, so much as realism. Gamey and real are not terms that have anything to do with each other.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

What's your definition of gamey, Fryon?

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

When I first started playing PBW, there was no mention of gaminess. If it was possible, you could do it, no questions asked. Now it seems if I take a deep breath someone complains. Things I've been doing routinely are now being questioned. I'd like to say, I don't know why, but I have some ideas.

#1. Pre-arranged excuse. "I lost because this was allowed". Since it can't possibly be the players own fault, he finds something to blame.

#2. Boredom with the standard rules. This one makes sense. By calling something gamey, you have a good enough reason to ban it from the game. But I do think most people are like Tesco: put it in the house rules and we will follow those rules. If it ain't there, it's allowed, gamey or not.

Mostly, the extremes some people go to to whine about perceived inequities are making me see why many people prefer to play within their own crowd. In fact, I'm leaning that way myself. Constant bickering and complaining about something that "should have been disallowed" is a real turn off and takes a good portion of fun out of the game. It's been said before: If you want a dead even game, play chess.

I do think all the talk about gamey moves has brought these whiners out of the woodwork and they now feel justified in pointing out every little bump in the road-- and we supplied them with the ammo! This is unfortunate because the subject should be discussed if only to make the list Fyron has started. But if you join a game, you accept the rules-- no whining, no *****ing and smile when you bite the dust.

(Hmm, that sounds like a rant... not my intent.)

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

well said, Grandpa Kim

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

The entire reason I created the list was to try to get every possible thing people could whine about cleared up at the start of every game.

Best rule of all to have:

If it is not explicitly forbidden by the game rules, it is allowed.

I suggest every game created from this point on have this rule in 2x font size, bold, and yellow, at the very beginning of the description. That should clear up the whining...

In fact, I request that Geoschmo add this to the default PBW game description (just the rule, not the bold yellow stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), so all new games created will have it in there (unless the host removes it).

[ July 30, 2003, 07:58: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a good question, which I can not give a definite answer too. I can certainly tell you that realism does not really have a whole lot to do with gameyness. So what if the ramming feature is unrealistic? A lot of things in the game are unrealistic, but not gamey. Such as police troops. Lets fill LA with troops and see what happens. Will people start partying (jubilant)? Hell no. There will be protests, riots, etc. Certainly no increase to happiness. Garrisoned troops should at best make the planet rise from unhappy to indifferent (for riot control and such). They should not make the people happier than that though, except for possibly some alien races that have odd ways of thinking. But for most races, tons of troops around is not seen as a good thing.

From other thread: <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That isn't gamey, that is cheating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Unless, of course, you tell the players in the game and they do not mind. Otherwise, is is just plain cheating. I have used maps I have made (modified, really) in some PBW games I have hosted, but I told the players (we were using Ringworlds as HWs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) and took Ancient Race (and told them that too), so no muss, no fuss.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is not gamey, especially if the limits are clearly stated. It is just creating a different kind of game. I would say that setting low limits AND not telling the players about them would be a very dishonorable thing to do, and I would certainly never play with a player that did that. But, it is not really an issue of gameyness, so much as integrity.

[ July 30, 2003, 08:16: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

25. Emergency building when there is no emergency.

Sorry you lost me on that one

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

G Kim agree with you.

When I set up games my goal is to run a game that people will enjoy as the goal is to have some fun and excape from life for about 20 minutes every other day http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And I enjoy attempting to make this happen for the players.

And just being the Game Admin is a great way of chatting with people and seeing their interpertation of what is going on and comparing it to what the other side sees.

Now that is a pleasure. I recommend that game hosts do this everyonce in a while ( if their not playing in the game )

I try to make the PBW game like chess at the beginning.... Equal for all. with the rules posted. I am more concerned about people dropping out with no notice and speed of play.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

From now on I only play games with Grandpa Kim. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

I never even cared about the whole gamey thing until the issue with the 100 mines came up originally. In the period of a couple months I was basically labeled a cheat by a couple people, one of whom I knew fairly well, and we ended up losing a PBW admin over it. Nasty incident. Left me quite shell shocked I don't mind telling you. As a result I stated encouraging game owners to delineate this stuff up front and we pushed hard to get the 100 mine limit loophole closed. Not because I particularly cared one way or the other, but just because some others cared about it so strongly.

But given the choice I prefer playing with as few rules as possible and usually stick to a core group of players I know as Grandpa suggests.

Geoschmo

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I haven't had time to test the mines thing...

But I think I was in that game, Geo, and I remember the whole incident.

But to clarify that issue was due to one empire launching more than 100 mines over a planet due to a bug. I think that has been fixed.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear. I was rambling on and reminising. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The issue that caused the major stinkus was Last year and was regarding one empire being able to launch more than 100. It was patched.

There is still an issue of allied empires cooperating to exceed the limit per sector. That is the current issue regarding mines on the gamey list.

Geoschmo

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Some people consider EB to be used only in emergencies, not as a standard building practice for when there is no emergency (enemy fleet bearing down on the planet, for example).

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

really did not know that.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That has nothing to do with gameyness. There is no reason why you should not be able to make outright lies to other empires in a roleplay environment. Would you call claiming to have 200 ships when you have 50 a gamey action? I would not, I would call it bluffing, lying, whatever. In fact, the game should allow you the option of not going through with a trade you proposed at all. If you refuse to play with a player that roleplays a dishonorable race, then I feel sad for you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Not everyone should be the good guys. Even in a non-RP game, there should still be the ability to make sour diplomatic deals.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

OH yes it is gamey, and the interface is weak for allowing it so easily.

If I take my cart to the town square, and see that you do not bring your cart, I turn around and go home.

I do not proceed to naively give you my cart.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

I think you missed my point. It is not about not having a cart, it is about having fake stuff in the cart that seems to have value, but does not actually have value.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but if I trade you a cart that has bum wheel and you don't find out till it comes off on you way home...

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

Well... ok... I guess you can look at it that way. Very interesting...

You two better not agree or the universe will implode... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreeing with Fyron is the path to true understanding. Along this path you will find peace and tranquility.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1059590690.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<-- Kablamo!

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">At least I am a pop culture icon now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That made the TOP 10 Funniest Shrapnel Forum moments.
LOL!

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

You know it just occured to me another good use of this gamey list. The biggest problem IMHO opion with having a "no holds barred" type game is that players of different levels of experience may not have knowledge of all these game quirks. Instead of a list of things for the game owner to ban, it's a educational referance to the players of possible exploits they might see in the game.

This way the game owner can have a game and say, "No rules except no cheating." and then point the players to the list so they can't come back after one of these is done to them and say, "No fair, I didn't know you could even DO that."

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

For the sake of fairness, we should do a 'gamey schmamey' list too. A list of things we agree (most of us, anyway) are NOT gamey.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well for me that would include about 3/4's of the list of things that ARE on the gamey list.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

It is not a gamey feature list at all, it is a potentially gamey feature list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wouldn't put the word "gamey" in the name of the list. Rather, I'd call it Stuff That Might Make People Upset.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

I've composed a response to the thread at my website:
Captain Kwok's Gamey Tactic Response

[ August 01, 2003, 04:16: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

Why would you put it on your web site? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's actually part of my pbw section. I suppose I could have cut and paste the code and stuck it here too, but I didn't want to make it a big long post that might be declared annoying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

how dare you put something on your website http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

Well, since we are all asking questions... Why does Fyron care what Kwok puts on his website? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

i don't think he cares... i think he was only asking a question.....

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

Anyways, why don't we keep this thread on topic? I'm more of a RP kind of player so you'll probably notice that most of my responses tend to lean that way.

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">More importantly, was doing so Gamey?

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">These are I think the only things I think are gamey in the big list. If there is one thing that kind of bugs me it is the refusal to accept that you've been beaten and then to surrender in a way to ruin the game for others. #19 and 26 are just really really unsportsmanklke

Re: Gamey Tactics and Bug Exploits Thread Talk
 

Number 26 can ruin any game, not just SE4. I've seen it happen in boardgames more than once.

People who join the game with a prior agreement to play together are bad enough, but it's worse when they join with a prior agreement to play against a specific player.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

(I just can't express what I think of this practice in words).