Massive Power Outage
 

Hey! I'm finally back!
How did you guys all fare?

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Got to love New York!

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

what caused it?

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The word on CNN and Foxnews (yes, I follow both because even the one that has trademarked 'Fair & Balanced' -- isn't... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) is that a power station in the Niagara Falls area was hit by lightning. This naturally caused a few circuit-breakers to trip, and then the inevitable cascade occurred where the increased demand from the suddenly dark power grid caused an adjacent power system to also trip its breakers, and then even more demand from the larger dark grid caused another adjacent grid to trip its breakers, and... you know how it goes.

This propogated all the way to the coast blacking out at least 80 percent of New York State and NYC itself, and all the way to the end of Lake Erie and blacked out Detroit (taking Cleveland and Toledo out also), and crossed the Niagara River and blacked out large areas of Ontario, including Toronto. Large chunks of adjacent New England states are down, such as Connecticut. Several nuclear power plants were sent into emergency shutdown, and it is going to take a while to restart those. This is apparently the largest power failure ever to occur in North America.

Michigan Public Radio is reporting that the local power people claim it will take ALL WEEKEND to completely restore power in Detroit and surrounds. Wow... Apparently they have to start with lower loads (rural stuff) and build up. So why is NYC on track to be back up in 'hours' not days? Hmm...

[ August 15, 2003, 04:04: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Power in my corner of Ottawa came back Online around 10pm EST.

Television service is still down right now and probably won't be up till morning.

I'd like to think I made the best of the situation. I went out and tossed a football around with some of the neighboors until it got too dark, and then took a walk around the surrounding blocks to see what was happening (or not happening).

Dang.. Apparently the people living across from our townhouse left food on the stove when the power went off and left the house. When the power came back on, so did the stove. The Fire Department is outside now. Damn, whatever was burning sure smells horrible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif The fire is out now though. That'll be a nice surprise for those people when they get home http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

hmmmmmmmmmm

HMMMMMMMMMM

MMMMMMM

Ah. Powered up again. Hmm, feels good.

Oh, I just had to post, we have power again. I'm not gonna abuse this, so I just logged on it see what caused it. Google News and Reuters are still down. But I knew our groop would have a "fair and balanced" answer. Thanks, Baron

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http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif your funny Baron, I know your dissing Fox because of their "Fair and Balanced" comment, but GOD if your watching CNN (whos slogan should be the Communist News Network for their one sided view).

I guess after all these years in the US, the liberal media has had a strangle hold on its viewers, I guess I can (kind of) see where a company like Fox trying to be fair and balanced will seem to be extreme in liberals eyes.

Me, I just say its about damn time some company went against the norm and do what FOX News is doing.

Now saying that, I can't believe that the black out is getting this much damn air time. Do they think the world revolves around N.Y.? AND FOX News pre-empted Brit Hume, thats the show I like to watch, they had Gibson balbbing on and on (ohh he is a dip by the way).

oh, hope I didn't derail this thread AND finally I just went over 200 Posts weee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Same down here in Babylon-on-the-Potomac, Narrew. The local news radio station was broadcasting the national news' every-10-minute update on the power outage (yep, it's still out...) and every half hour it was "how the outage is affecting DC" (unless you wanted to travel to the blacked-out areas by plane or train, not at all).

Makes you wonder, though, at the fragility of this technological support net we've built for ourselves...

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Looks like the lightning strike was ***-covering, there is news about a transmission failure in Canada starting to see the light of day. The sudden voltage drop causes a cascading disconnect-shutdown event that was designed to protect the generators from burnout like occurred in the 60’s. But it also requires a manual reset that requires trained man power on site. These men have been, for the most part, victims of deregulation and profit maximizing. There is a message in all of this. The system put in place decades ago to protect the generating plants from suffering burnouts during a sudden voltage drop are no longer usable. Deregulation of the power industry has allowed them to lay off the people needed to service this system in an event like this. They simply do not have the manpower to go out and reconfigure the switches. Storm damage during the Last few years has uncovered the shortcomings of pooled-contract line crews, perhaps now the government will decide that the power industry is not capable of policing itself, and guaranteeing an up-to-date, reliable power system.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

There are multiple explanations surfacing now, which is no surprise. Everyone will try to blame everyone else until the proof can be found to nail down the cause.

Narrew:

You're pretty funny too, thinking that any of the news channels are any more or less unreliable than any of the others. But to trademark the phrase 'Fair & Balanced' is a whole new level of sleaziness.

[ August 15, 2003, 15:15: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

geez, why must we always bring politics into discussions?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They were already there, you smell them buggers? They're hiding, but they're in there.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Hurray!

Back up and running! Fortunately live across the street from an ambulance station, so my power grid should be on despite rolling blackouts!

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I can see it now. The DSL techs and the Phone techs get together and find out why Geo doesn't have DSL. "If we just flip this switch, PBW will be back!"... FLIP... POW!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif It is now a choice between lighting the NorthEast or having PBW? I know what I would pick! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Ohio IS where it started. (P.S. PBW is down, sorry to get your hopes up)

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Only part of Ohio hit was Cleveland and that's very far from where I live. Only problem we've had with the blackout is watching the ad nauseum reports on the news. Has anyone at the networks conidered that those not affected by the blackout aren't all that interested, and those affected can't watch it on tv anyway? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

kill your TV.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with what those sites say, but did you notice (or at least I couldn't find any) no stats about Internet or computer usage? In my home, PC's are used about as much (if not more) than TV's. And the TV(s) is/are playing a movie (DVD, VHS, etc.) more often than "regular" television.

Sorry, bak on topic. I agree also w/ Geo; if it doesn't affect me, I really don't want to watch 8 hours of live coverage of people milling about the streets of NYC....

Just my $.02...

[ August 15, 2003, 20:20: Message edited by: rdouglass ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

lost power at ROUGHYLY 4pm Last night.
spent the night in one part of toronto, where the had power restored at 4 this morning.

I didnt get power back at home till 3pm today.

and I've been listening to the radio all day.

apparently, according to what I heard.. some group that was made to monitor the entire power grid of the north east (yes, both canadians and americans make up this group) said the cause was a lightning strike.

there's the threat of rotation black outs for all ontarians, as well, we've been asked to keep air conditioners off, power use to a minimum, and spare water.

dont ask me what water has to do with power outages... I just see them find more ways to make us hot. lol

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The water that comes to your house from those giant water tanks up the hill there is fed by gravity, but without electricity they can't run the pumps that replenish the water in those tanks as it comes out. Used sparingly those tanks can Last a few days. On normal usage they would probably be depleted in a few hours.

Geoschmo

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Internet, and computer games as well, could certainly be considered a 'waste of time', but at least it's a waste that leaves me with an illusion of accomplishment. ("Take that Innocent III!")

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, but Geo you've forgotten the cardinal rule of Journalism. If it happens to Journalists it's news! So of course anything that happens in New York (home of the networks) or any other city with a large group of journalists concentrated together (Atlanta, Los Angeles, etc...) it's absolutely vital national interest and must be covered...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with what those sites say, but did you notice (or at least I couldn't find any) no stats about Internet or computer usage? In my home, PC's are used about as much (if not more) than TV's. And the TV(s) is/are playing a movie (DVD, VHS, etc.) more often than "regular" television.

Sorry, bak on topic. I agree also w/ Geo; if it doesn't affect me, I really don't want to watch 8 hours of live coverage of people milling about the streets of NYC....

Just my $.02...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There was a survey of some sort recently published by some media group that showed 18-35 year-olds are now spending more time surfing than watching television. Needless to say the TV networks will be paranoid about this, and the advertizing execs will be furiously brainstorming for ways to cram more advertizing into web pages. I've got an excellent pop-up and banner filter myself and hardly see ads anymore. Very nice.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Wow! Looks like I just missed all the fun over there in Central Canada/Eastern USA. Just got back to Alberta Tuesday - missed the Air Canada service nightmare by a day, then missed the whole region going dark by two days.

CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Communists... er Corporation) gave us nothing but the power-outage all night long. It's not surprising as the head offices are in Toronto, and our nation's capital, Ottawa, was also blacked out. Washington was safe, right?

They'd better figure out the power grid quick, cause this little episode just alerted the terrorist to America's achilles heel. Try this on for size: terrorist cell #1, 2 and 3 hit three power stations in either Canada or the USA on the same night. Terrorist cells # 4, 5, 6, 7, 8... are instructed to do their nasty businesses on any night that goes dark (proceed by foot or bike). Sounds like a recipe for total and complete pain to me.

[ August 15, 2003, 23:32: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Which news channle?
You can do what I do:
Read this forum. If it is big. If it is important. It will get posted here.

Ok, I admit I also scan the headlines of the newspapers and listen to the TV in Duncan Donuts / Baskin Robins, (a Donut shop and icream vendor with a TV in most outlets.)

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Well the power has been going on and off all day here. We've been told to expect rolling blackouts through the weekend.

But on a personal note, I may have the Forum's first casualty of the blackouts:

My Primary Hard Drive is dead. She's making the same grinding noise my smaller Drive did Last year, and that Drive had to be shipped to Maxtor for replacement. When I initially got power restored Last night the Hard Drive seemed to boot fine, but after about 5 mins on the Desktop the System started to stall, and I got a lovely "authenticating installer" message from an unknown program. I shut the System down right away, but when I tried turning the computer back on the BIOS wouldn't read the Primary Drive anymore. I even plugged the Drive into a 2nd computer we have in the house and it can't be detected in that System either.

Fortunately I did save almost all my DoGa models onto a ZIP Disk. I say "almost all" because there are a few Neo-Standard images for the Psycho Trapper set which I completed after I had done the inital save. All the in-game BMPs and AI files are gone though, but they can be replaced with a bit of elbow grease. I'm more upset with the new web pages I had built which were going to be debuted when the set was released. Oh well, more elbow work.

Good thing I only threw out my shoulder while playing football yesterday, and not my elbow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I don't know for certain if the blackout helped bring the Drive into the hands of the Reaper, especially since I apparently had a mystery program tying to install something. Coincidences do happen afterall.

To Kwok & Hugh and the others that shared about their Hard Drive failures from a few months back, I say thank you! I likely wouldn't have backed anything up if that string of bad luck you guys had eariler hadn't hit. Your words of caution have saved at least one person.

Although in truth, i'd gladly suffer a Drive failure if the failure would have in some way prevented the failure Kwok & Hugh had. The work they lost greatly overshadows what i've been able to save.

Oh well, cyber life goes on. Fortunately the 13GB Drive that was replaced Last year is still working well, so she'll do while I get the 40GB replaced. Oh well, it's nearly time for a massive upgrade to my computer anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Oh, and did I mention that the BLaster Worm apparently found it's way onto my 13GB Drive, which hasen't been used since Last September? Even weirder is that the BLaster Worm haden't infected my 40GB (Primary) Drive at all.

Oh well, I better stop before I derail this Thread. That's Narf's & GW's job http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

(edited to fix avatar problem)

[ August 17, 2003, 00:36: Message edited by: Katchoo ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Question for the folks in the black outs:

How's the riot going?

Is there any looting?

Was there even a riot?

Why or why not?

You know if this happened in certain other cities (L.A., Dallas, Denver) there would be rampant looting. Hell, around here we know which stores carry 'riot gear' and tend to know when the riots are going to happen, some of us road-trip it up to Denver to participate in, watch, or just be around such events. Are they even looting in Detroit? (Detroit was hit, right?)

[ August 16, 2003, 13:19: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

here in Toronto, there was no rioting, I think very little looting (the police recorded less than 100 looting related calls according to the radio), and we actualy had citizens directing traffic, fairly well too, at intersections without lights and cops!

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There were no riots.

There was no looting.

There were no riots.

Because they were civilized people, and it's senseless to loot when the shops are all manned, police and fire crews were fully crewed and patrolling the city, and when you think that this is another terrorist attack where anybody in a building could lose their lives.

[ August 16, 2003, 17:02: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

TerranC:

Detroit was hit too...

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

So I gather it now seems the power failure was cause by something in Cleveland. so what's up with the NY mayor (or perhaps it was the Governor) saying 'definatly absolutely it was caused by something in Canada' (not an exact quote) Good to know we can trust the politicians. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Hmm Cause is in Ohio, Incompentent service guys trying to fix PBW in Ohio... Conicidence? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It was?

*looks over yesterday's globe and mail's map*

Shoot. Never mind then.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

hi. i will be on and off ( i got power back Last night at 10 pm ) but were scheduled for 120 minutes up and down to about wed or thursday.

On another note the grocery store where i work part time had to get rid of everything. ( 700,000 dollars worth easy )

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

It seems Cleveland got the worst of power outrage, since their water supply got really messed up too.

My power was out from 4.15pm on Thu until 3.40am Fri morning. I was lucky that I'm on the same grid as an ambulance station and major telephone switching center, so I never got subjected to any of the rolling blackouts yesterday - even though all the area surrounding me was out for a long time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I was annoyed by many people that continued to run their a/c and even did laundry in my building, while they were asking not to run a/c and major appliances so they could get power to all people. So selfish!

I just hope they find the cause of this problem and make sure it doesn't happen again! I also hope this makes people more aware of the need to conserve electricity. Us North Americans are so greedy when it comes to power, it serves us right to lose it more often! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ August 16, 2003, 17:34: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I assume you are typing this up from your solar powered PC so as not to be wasting power that should be going to the ambulance station or telephone switch. I'd hate to see a human life lost because you were using up that valuable electricity in such a greedy fashion as posting a message on the internet.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're joking, right? Feel free to be proactive in this situation. I'm sure some sub-Saharan clan of nomads would be happy to accept you into there family. Otherwise be very cautious of the rocks you throw around in you air-conditioned glass house, you might break your refrigorator or computer monitor.

I've heard conservation being preached for thirty years and while the concept has its merits, what needs to happen is to have the "Not in my Backyard" crowd cut off the grid, letting them fend for themselves in their own air-conditioned glass houses. New transmission lines need to be built, but mostly new power plants need to be built to keep up with our expanding economies and societies.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not quite what I meant!!!

I was actually referring to the fact yesterday that when their was only 50-60% of the electricity available and many people had been without power in their neighbourhoods for over a day that those who had power did not listen to requests to reduce their consumption so that people without power might get a chance to get some and perhaps save their food in the refrigerator etc.

I'm not trying to be self-righteous nor do I want to a Sub-Saharan nomad, but I do make some efforts to reduce my consumption. Until better infrastructure is in place, it's important to conserve to prevent brownouts, higher energy costs, pollution, etc.

I think many gov't institutions, industries, and big business could take measures that would reduce their energy usage and costs with no negative effect on their bottom line. They're the biggest offenders.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the number I saw was corporations used about 40% of energy produced. You'd think they would be doing a fair job at conservation if for no other reason than to increase profits. Of course somewhere the cost/benefit ratio becomes the dominate factor. I see the gov't as being a prime place for us to conserve. I propose we get rid of about 90% of it as we really don't need it anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I don't see the gov't conserving too much, let's face it, if they have a problem paying their light bill, they know where to get more money.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

http://globalsecurity.org/eye/black-...p_comp-nyc.htm

Click on the arrows to see before and after

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

You know what those pictures say to me?

"Dude! That's a LOT OF CARS!"

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not quite what I meant!!!

I was actually referring to the fact yesterday that when their was only 50-60% of the electricity available and many people had been without power in their neighbourhoods for over a day that those who had power did not listen to requests to reduce their consumption so that people without power might get a chance to get some and perhaps save their food in the refrigerator etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the real problem is that few people believe this is true for 2 reasons I think.

Reason 1. A politician (Ernie Eves our premier) told us to do this. Does anyone believe anything a politician says or think they know what their talking about (see my previous post re the mayor of NY) It's even harder to believe the premier when he declares a state of emergency and that non essential workers should stay home and then the local governments are announcing they 'expect ALL their employees to come to work'. Who do you believe??

Reason #2: Does anyone really understand how the power grid works? If I really believed that turning this computer off would allow Mr Jones to have his power back I would do it in a second. I think the media coverage pretty much tells us they don't know how the system works and few seem too. They tell us things like 20 power stations were 'knocked out'. What the hell does this mean??? If this came from the Pentagon and they were taking about stations in Iraq it would be pretty clear. How they were 'knocked out' here is certainly not.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Perhaps if they said:
We currently have only X MegaWatts of power... that's Y KiloWatts per household in the affected area.

Here's a list of common household items and the power they use up. Are you using more than your share?
Then end with something like: If you were to turn off three lightbulbs, then the Joneses would have enough to get their freezer back on.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

I think the reasoning behind it is, if you cut your power down to 50-60% of your normal use and most people did this - then the electrical demand would drop enough to allow more grids to be turned on. Of course, people are like "what blackout?" as soon as they get their power back on and could care less - I had people next door running 2 air conditioners for a 700-sq ft apartment! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Even worse was seeing some commercial signs downtown flashing away (did you even see Times Sq in NY - lights out for a lot of people - and they got their stupid ad signs flashing away?!).

There is a lot of wasted power out there. For example, the shopping center beside my apartment has a huge parking lot that is never more than 30% full at peak. At night, they have a whole set of lights (which shine into my window OFC) that they don't all need. They could easily go with half of them turned on and still have sufficient and safe lighting for their entire lot.

Anyways, it's late, but I would really like to see more renewable forms of energy being developed. I wonder if anyone has ever thought of putting a few solar panels & storage battery on traffic lights for these situations. At least it could provide enough power to operate the signals on most days, plus store enough energy to go through most of the night...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought Ontario already uses lots of Hydroelectricity plants.

And the blackout had nothing to do with power generators. It had everything to do with old, outdated power transmission systems.

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I havent heard the news or any updates since power came back on..... but while it was out I was glued to a radio.

If you ask me, one of the minor, yet highly confusing issues for the public is that the media doesnt seem to understand the diffrent between the power plants, and the power grid.

Durring the entire blackout, they kept on alluding to the fault being the power stations, not the power grid, even though it was highly obvious if they (power plants) werent linked together with such poor emergency measures in place, none of this would have happened.

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I count myself lucky i live in the UK, that and i have quite a few candles in my bedroom. Though i can remember my cities Last powercut. I was alseep in the room next to the security alarm and it went off when the power cut. Boy did i get a shock

E3, regarding your signature. Nope, me and my friend have around 7 races between us, and we're in the process of setting up a history with them, and theres a few wars, mostly with mine against mine. Of course the fact you came up with those names does suggest you have issues hehe. I can't even pronounce them, and I have issues!

Now please Excuse me but it's nearing my birthday, and i'm expecting a nice present through the post *pulls out shotgun* dangnabit the postman have a tendency to leave packages outside in the rain! ahh here comes one now.....Yeehaw *shotgun bLast*

Think i replaced narf as forum insane guy yet? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

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I wondered why the pattern of lights after the blackout looked more or less the same as before, but less bright. I guess there was at least some partial power in most areas even during the blackout?

Then I finally understood what Suicide Junkie said about lots of cars.. Oh, that light is from all the cars!

[ August 17, 2003, 19:13: Message edited by: Kamog ]

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/. had some fantastic piture links.

Ontario is blacked out ( all of it )
before

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightli...efore-text.jpg
after
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightli...after-text.jpg

I was reading about cnn's coverage.

They were reporting that there many out of control fires in Toronto and Rioting.

Gotta love CNN. They keep this up and fox will soon be seen as a real news company.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You got that right. I'm still trying to find out from the news sites what actually happened. They really don't seem to know. Any Power engineers out there who can explain these terms?

"knocked out" ie the power station was knocked out.
"Cascade effect"
"fragile" ie the grid is fragile?? WTF??

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IIRC lightning hit a station somewhere (forget where) and knocked its power out. The surrounding stations tried to cover for it while it was down and they couldn't handle the strain so they too blew. This went on down the line until the final outcome as it was. But I may be mistaken on that.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There was no lightning; the main cause is still unknown, but something happened at a transmission line in ohio that caused it to go out. The power that should have been normally flowing throughout those lines were diverted to other lines, and those other lines, which couldn't handle the extra surge, went pop, taking out power stations connected to them.

That's my understanding of this whole event; other provinces and states were spared from this domino effect because they cut the connection from the falling dominoes.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

If the main cause was unknown, how can you say it was not lightning? Or are you just saying that there was no lightning in Ohio around the time the power grid went down?