OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

Hell has a new member today...

_____________________________________

DATE=8/16/03

TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT

TITLE=UGANDA/IDI AMIN/OBIT (L-ONLY)

NUMBER=2-306549

BYLINE=CATHY MAJTENYI

DATELINE=NAIROBI

CONTENT=

VOICED AT:

INTRO: Former Ugandan dictator Idi Amin died Saturday in the Saudi Arabian city of Jeddah from complications due to multiple organ failure. He was 80 years old. As Cathy Majtenyi reports from Nairobi, the Ugandan government does not plan an official funeral.

TEXT: Idi Amin took power in Uganda following a 1971 coup against Milton Obote, the president of Uganda's first independent government.

One year after seizing power, he replaced the civilian Cabinet with a succession of military advisors, and led the country in what has been described as a brutal and arbitrary dictatorship.

Mr. Amin's regime is said to have been responsible for the deaths of at least 100-thousand Ugandans. He also expelled 40-thousand Asians whom he accused of sabotaging the economy.

Mr. Amin fled the country in 1979, after being overthrown by Tanzanian troops and Ugandan exiles. He was eventually granted asylum in Saudi Arabia, where he lived with his four wives until his death.

A spokeswoman for Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni told V-O-A that Uganda would not bar Mr. Amin's family from returning his body to Uganda, but Ugandans should not expect any special ceremonies.

/// SPOKESWOMAN ACT ///

It is up to the family. If the family wants to bring back the body, they can do it. They can bring the body if they want, but the question of a state funeral is definitely out.

/// END ACT ///

According to a reporter for Uganda's daily independent newspaper, The Monitor, many Ugandans showed a low-key reaction to Mr. Amin's death. Badru Mulumba told V-O-A that, other than an Asian association saying it's the "end of a bad chapter," people in Uganda are just going about their business.

/// MULUMBA ACT ///

People are struggling to live. After about 25 years, some of these issues mean very little to many people who are currently alive.

/// END ACT ///

He said more recent events - such as the insecurity gripping the country since President Museveni took power in 1986 - are fresher in peoples' minds. (SIGNED)

NEB/CM/DW/TW

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

One down, about a dozen more to go...

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

Good riddance to bad baggage. What galls me further is that our "staunch ally" Saudi Arabia gave this... person... asylum for so long.

Now departing Baghdad, next stop... Riyadh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then next stop: WW3.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

I could be wrong but:
I belive he was given that out, (to live in Saudi Arabia), in order to get him to leave the Uganda.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've got news for you - we're already in it. But it'd be more accurate to call it World War IV.

If my initial remark was somewhat in jest, the problem is no joke.

[ August 17, 2003, 23:37: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

ignore - messed up on edit for prior post

[ August 17, 2003, 23:37: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

Kind of hard to classify the current situation we're in as a world war when the world isn't involved it it; The United states and it's few allies against the arab world counts as the whole globe? That's news to me.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

Not a world war? There are Muslim vs. non-Muslim conflicts in sub-Saharan Africa (Nigeria, the Sudan, Somalia, amongst others). There is a decades-old Muslim insurgency in the Philippines. The troubles in Indonesia are well-known. Arab terrorist Groups use South America (especially Trinidad and the tri-border region around Paraguay, Argentina, and Uruguay) as a fund-raising and laundering base - perhaps other things too. Muslim terrorists have established themselves and struck in both Europe and North America. Muslim-Hindu conflicts are one of the defining features of the tension between India and Pakistan.

And you say it isn't a global conflict?

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

To qualify as a world war, there needs to be more than one powerful side...

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's a global conflict. It's not a global war. You say as if all those events are the works of one organization (In your case, the militant islam culture), while it isn't.

All those events you mentioned are the works of different Groups, all with different agendas.

And in order to have a war, you need to have 2 unified sides. In order to have a global war, you need to have 2 worldwide unified sides. Militant Islam culture isn't at all unified. Arabs and Kurds kill each other at a moments notice. Before the war in afghanistan, It was the arabs of the Taliban against the Arabs of the Northern alliance. Even now, the 3 main organizations that are causing all the hubbub in Israel aren't even on friendly terms with each other!

This is no Global war, comprising the "coaltion of the willing" and militant islam. What we are in right now is a flurry of militant activities, that have a common theme; violent action against the governments that "oppress" them and it's supporters, where the biggest supporter of those governments just happens to be the United States.

Edit:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is the stupidest statement I've ever heard; That criteria includes Israel, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Libya, among others; Israel, being america's ally, can't be touched, Attacking North Korea is suicide without China's approval, Attacking Libya will only anger arabs more, and attacking Saudi Arabia will do nothing more than push the world into WW3.

[ August 18, 2003, 04:26: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1)I won't quibble over the 'conflict' vs 'war' wording. If by 'war' you mean the formal declarations and patterns that hold when two nations go to war, I may grant your point. But the jihadists did, after a fashion, 'declare war' on us, in a summit in 1998. And 9/11 proves you can get thousands killed in a "conflict" nowadays, just as easily as you could in an old-fashioned "war".

2)I never said they were one organization. But bear in mind that they share a common ideology (strict Islam), overlapping goals (overthrow of non-Muslim govts and establishment of sharia law), and in many cases the same bankrollers (the Saudi Wahabbis). And in the article I referenced, it was pointed out that the jihadists are just as hostile to 'moderate' Muslims as they are to us.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unless you factor in the global and terrorist dimension of this conflict, you're going to miss the whole point. Or are you so anti-american that you are blind to this dimension?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As for Israel, you don't see them sending their young men and women disguised as Arabs into Arab towns to blow themselves up. I am amazed at the restraint the Israelis show. I'd have gone over to the offensive long long ago.

Secondly, yes, all those other nations qualify. They are hostile to Western interests and have developed, tried to develop, or are developing WMD. This is the fruits of America's A) being focused on Russia for too long, and B) being so complacent in the 1990's about worldwide developments. Outright military attack is a Last resort, but in a "conflict/war", it does occasionally have to happen. The current administration here is not going to stand by and let these nations prepare for a WMD-style 9-11. If it was Ottowa that had been hit, not NYC, how pacifist would *you* be right now?

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

Joke:
It’s a “World War”, if using the same definition as in “World Series”.

Seriously:
To call the war on terrorism a “World War”, is a grave insult to the millions of people who fought and died in the real world wars. Compared to the atrocities of those wars, even 9/11 is only a minor incident.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

Again, I don't want to get hung up on terminology. OK, so we're not talking about massed national armies in the sense of World Wars I and II. But when you look at the scope of the conflict, and the numbers of casualties actually generated, it is more than just a blip on the radar. How many Afghanis have died due to the war between the Taliban and the other tribes? How many non-Muslim Sudanese have been killed and enslaved by the Muslim-dominated government? What happens if Nigeria goes into a religious civil war? What about the Pakistani-Indian wars? What happens if (or when) that conflict goes nuclear? Or if Iran gets the bomb and decides to use it on Israel (as some of their clerics have stated on the record is an intended use)? And all it would take is one well-placed terrorist nuke/chemical/bio bomb to generate WWII-level damage and casualties.

We're in a very dangerous world. The old paradigms for war no longer apply.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

How many soldiers do you plan to hold up, occupying all those countries ? How do you expect to pay the price of keeping them there ?

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

I don't know the answer to that question - who does? However few or many, whether all at once or one at a time, the ultimate question in my mind is, "Is this what is necessary to defend against WMD terrorism?" For that is the ultimate issue, and the problem won't be wished away or ignored any longer. And the US is not the only country that is at risk. Anybody who is perceived as the enemy by these people is a legitimate target for them. It's either conVersion to Islam (as they interpret it), or jihad to the death. There have been movements like this in the past (the Assassins of the 13th century, the Anarchists/Nihilists of the late 19th century), but all they had was knives and poison, dynamite and pistols. Nowadays the stakes are exponentially higher.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

what there is a war on terrorism http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

All I have seen so far is an invasion of Afghan and Iraq

The Afghan Taliban were going to be removed before sept 11th.

And Iraq has no proven ties to 'terrorist' Groups.

oh and syria is next because they have 'hidden Iraq's WMD'. Why? because they have their own stock piles and really need Iraq's outdated stocks and really want the coalition of the willing to invade. for Syria its all win/win situation. Or is it Iran?

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif By who? They controlled 80% of the country.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They bankrolled suicide bombers in Palestine to the tune of $20,000 per bomber (paid to the relatives of course). That is an undisputed fact. Abu Nidal lived in comfortable "retirement" in Baghdad, along with other terrorists wanted by international authorities. I'd mention the alleged contacts with Al Qaeda operatives, but I don't think that would go too far here...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Syria has given asylum to fleeing Baathists from Iraq, and allowed "mujahhadin" passage to Iraq. Syria sponsors terrorist/"milita" Groups in southern Lebanon - in fact it holds the Bekaah Valley as an undeclared colony. Whether they offered Iraqi weapons a "hiding place" remains to be seen. But the beligerency of the Syrian Baathist regime is clear.

As for Iran... their lead cleric has advocated the use of nuclear weapons on Israel (link here). They have a nuclear infrastructure program in progress. Is it asking too much to insist that these two facts be taken into consideration in determining if Iran is a "rogue state" or not?

[ August 20, 2003, 18:50: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is a totally unfounded statement. The best chance of that happening any time soon died on Sept 9th with the assisnation of Massoud. THe ramaining Groups were too fractured to have a hope of overcoming the entrenched Taliban bankrolled by Bin Ladens money.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

Going back to GW's 'World War IV' link, I'd call it Ideology War II (the Cold War was IW I).

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

why should we occupy these countrys
they have nukes and havent said they will not shoot first... neither has the USA
because they kill people with bombs
cars kill people
more people than terrorists
unless you want to count the USA as a terrorist

guns will not win the hearts and minds of the iraq people neither will frozen chicken
perhaps we could give them electrical power back
perhaps a government

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And that is exactly the sort of thing that is being rebuilt there...

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

The Taliban were going to be removed before sept 2001. This was a well known fact. It has now been misplaced or changed to support what happened after sept 11 2001.

Most documents are now gone... but here is the only one i could find from janes

http://www.janes.com/security/intern...1011_1_n.shtml

http://www.janes.com/security/intern...0315_1_n.shtml

bbc

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...02strike.story

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/no...afgh-n20.shtml
(which mentions the janes articles )

http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/anal...2/0208book.htm

What I always thought was that the Al-Quada were going to be attacked ( taliban as well ) not openly like what really happened but via its local enemies and with Special Ops. And some help from India , Iran , Russia.

Not a conspircy theory. I do not think they were going to send the military in there as they did but with 9-11 this became an option to use. Which they did as well as the other plans that were in place or in motion.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">DId you read the whole article? And in answer to your question of is it to much... well yes. and i do not think iran is a rogue state.

And Iraq's ties with 'terrorism' are Groups that could hurt their regional foes. Such as Mujahedeen-e-Khalq , Kurdistan Workers’ Party and some palestinian Groups such as the islamist hamas and the abu nidal organization. And reportedly channeled money to families of Plaestinian suicide bombers.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

Most of the articles here just prove the point - that military action against the Taliban by outside forces was inevitable, and necessary for their overthrow.

As for the Russian and Indian planned actions against the Taliban, all I can say is, "whatever came of them?" The Taliban still controlled Afghanistan prior to the US-Taliban War of fall 2001, with slim prospects of the Northern Alliance winning without outside help.

As to Iran's ties with regional Groups, like I said before, radical Islamists fight other Muslims just as readily as they do us. The very fact that they bombed the UN HQ in Iraq (after all that the UN did to bolster Saddam and restrain the US) shows their true colors. It's Them vs Everyone Else.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

"And Iraq's ties with 'terrorism' are Groups that could hurt their regional foes. Such as Mujahedeen-e-Khalq , Kurdistan Workers’ Party and some palestinian Groups such as the islamist hamas and the abu nidal organization. And reportedly channeled money to families of Plaestinian suicide bombers."

Which doesn't mean those aren't terrorist Groups, so what's with the ' ' around terrorism?

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

Tesco, your articles show that the US military had plans drawn up prior to 9/11 to attack Afganistan. That is not exactly an earth shattering revelation. And it's certainly not nearaly the same thing as saying the Taleban was going to be overthrown. There is a big difference between planning something and doing it. And aiding the Northern Alliance and sending in covert teams to try and find Bin Laden are not the same thing as overthrowing the Taleban. And none of this even discusses the implications of the Massud assassination, which would have been a devastating blow to the anti-taleban efforts if 9/11 had not happened.

If the truth is told there are probably plans in some pentagon file cabinet for the military invasion of Quebec. And your generals probably still have plans around somewhere for the recapture of Fort Detroit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif That's what generals do in peace time, they plan things. Most of them never happen thankfully. But also it's a very good thing that they prepare. That's what we pay them to do afterall.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

The military has plans on the books to invade Canada, Mexico, France, Germany, you name it. Lots of people work on these plans all the time. But few are ever used. And with the new light force concept, all are being reworked.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

umm so we all agree here....

this thread is going to go nowhere fast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

or are we all in disagreement over the fact we all agree with each other http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

strange day on shrapnel indeed

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

I agree with the facts stated in the links you have provided Tesco. They aren't particularly suprising, although as always it is interesting reading. But I disagree with your analysis of them, which is also not all that suprising. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

Hey, we almost forgot what started this thread in the first place...

Why Didn't Amin Rot and Die in Jail?

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Indeed.
I rejoice of his death and regret he did not had to face man's justice.
However I wish him good luck facing highter courts, and also rejoice at that thought.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't wait for the Freedom of Information Act to kick in on that lot. That'll be some very entertaining reading, I'll bet, and make for some wonderfully misunderstood and misleading headlines.

Almost related (though not to the original topic), what I'd really like to see is a plan for a land invasion of the U.S. I don't care whose, I would just love to hear how they'd pull it off, what with "a rifle behind every blade of grass" (Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, 1941).

[ August 21, 2003, 16:25: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

i think it is already inplace.... dea

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How do you figure?

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess the clever way to do it would be to find a way of turning those guns on one-another.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They already are. The rub is that enough of them will turn, together, against the invader.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

see they 'captured chemical ali'

hey didn't the British kill him a few months ago ??

ah now i know what their doing with the wmd... creating zombies...

do they not know you have to shot them in their brainnnnnnnnnsssssssssssssssssssssssssss

chemical kenny

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep, they had said that his card was back in the deck.

Quote GSO:

Lieut. Gen. Ali Hasan Al-Majeed [Ali Hassan al Majid], the infamous "Chemical Ali," is Saddam's cousin and was the governor of the south of Iraq.

Coalition aircraft struck the residence of Ali Hassan al-Majid, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein’s cousin. Two Coalition aircraft using laser-guided munitions struck the home at approximately 9:30 p.m. EST April 4, 2003. The structure is located in Al Basrah, approximately 250 miles southeast of Baghdad.

On April 7, reports from British military sources indicated that the body of Ali Hasan Al-Majeed had been identified. However, following the capture of Majeed's brother and subsequent interviews with him, CENTCOM changed its assessment to reflect this fact and placed Chemical Ali as still being at large.

Al Majid is called Chemical Ali because he decided the best way to solve the Kurdish rebellion was to gas them. He orchestrated the gassing of Kurdish villages carried out by low-flying helicopters with express orders to kill every living thing in the area, including plants and wildlife. This was all part of Operation Anfal, which saw the widespread use of chemical weapons against the Kurds in northern Iraq. International observers estimate Iraqi forces killed 50,000 to 100,000 people during the 1988 campaign known as "Anfal" which means "the spoils."

In March 1988, in the town of Halabja, 5,000 Kurds died writhing in agony and 10,000 were seriously affected when Iraqi jets dropped chemical bombs on the town. Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons attack on Halabja, a predominantly Kurdish city in northeastern Iraq. On March 16, 1988, an estimated 5,000 civilians were killed and 10,000 injured when Iraqi air forces bombarded Halabja with mustard and other poison gases. Over a decade after the massacre, the people of Halabja still suffer from very high rates of serious diseases such as cancer, neurological disorders, birth defects and miscarriages. Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons attack on Halabja was not an isolated incident. It was part of a systematic campaign ordered by Saddam Hussein and led by his cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majid.

Geral Ali Hasan al-Majid "Chemical Ali" was captured by Coalition forces on or about 19 August 2003 and was taken into the custody of Coalition Forces. US CENTCOM announced the capture of al-Majid on Aug 21, 2003.

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From what I did read, Iran is a nightmare for strategist planners. This is the ONLY country in this region whose population is not US haters, but the leadership is. Then the problem is shall US let Iran take the time to make its revolution and throw out the islamic junta, or shall the military help them to put them out of office throught the Irak method ?

The answer lies in both cooperation versus radical islam (In Iran, some say Arabic Islam) and nuclear power control.

It seems Iran decided from the Irak lesson that only nuclear weapons can keep them out of harm's way.

For the Palestinian problem, stop making me laught. Since the 80's, all arab states took a vocal posture and continuously did nothing for them (best exemple : Saudia Arabia). Palestinians are political tools. Rethoric and false promise are all they had from Arab states. Shall I say it will stay that way for the forseable future ?

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

same s&^%, different uday.

I saw that some where today and laughed quite loud. to you irc icq people that is l o l

Do not mind me thermo... This week has been very challenging with all the virus crap...

Re: OT: Big Daddy Amin Dead at 80
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*GASP!* Not the plants and wildlife!!! Kind of a wierd thing to report...