Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

I am really at a loss here. I'm just learning how to play se4g. I'm researching energy weapons now, stream and otherwise, but they seem to be much much weaker than the ballistic weapons, depleted uranium cannons. Anyone know what the benefit of using these weapons is? They don't seem to use less supply, cost less, or weigh less at all, so what would be the point when you have much better weapons.

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

Keep researching. Any energy weapon will eventually make DUCs look pretty pathetic.

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

Projectile weapons are sort of a technological dead end - sure, they're powerful and cheap, but you can only research them so far. A Depleted Uranium Cannon V does 40 damage at range 5; compare that with more advanced weapons like Antiproton Beams (50-60 damage at range 8) and Phased Polaron Beams (50-60 shield skipping damage at range 6). Sure, it takes a long time to get to the highest levels of those other weapons, but the fact is they're there and they're reachable, so anyone who doesn't research projectile weapons is probably that much ahead of you toward the other ones! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

hi, welcome to the forums. do you want some cheese? how about toast?

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

Also, at the lower end of the techtree, meson bLasters give a much higher damage/weight/reload ratio than DUCs, torps or just about anything. (they're only 20kt remember.)

And thanks for the offer Narf. Any chance of some cheese on toast?

[ September 15, 2003, 10:16: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

Phased Poloron Beams are AI killers. DUC's combined with mounts, oh yes - must use mounts, and other components are quite useful against human players in most PBW games.

Mounts will increase the range or power of a weapon. Be sure to check them out.

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

As others have told you, the DUC guns are good at low levels, but the best is level 5 and then you can't research them any higher than that. The energy guns start out weaker than DUCs, but can be researched lots higher to be much more powerful.

To me, that doesn't mean that DUCs should necessarily be ignored so as to concentrate on boosting those energy gun levels. I want something to give me an edge against the first aliens I meet, and researching a few levels of DUC guns does that - while they may have level 3 anti-proton beams, they are way outgunned by my level 3 DUCs. After I've taken care of my initial survival and set up some defenses, and probably researched a level or two of missiles as well, then I'll get to work on researching the energy guns.

Caveat: I am a newbie at this game, too, so there may be some flaw in my plan that the more experienced players will point out. I'm just throwing it out for consideration because this is what I do and nobody else explicitly suggested it.

SpaceBadger

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

In the early game I normally go for a few levels in DUC(Depleted Uranium Cannon) and max out PDC (Point Defense Cannon). Early game this gives you the best projectile weapon with defense against missile opponents. An alternative is to instead go for fighters and carriers, very strong early game.

Mid game you should either go for the PPB(Phased Polaron Beam) or your racial tech weapons, and late game racial tech weapons or APB(Anti-Protoon Beam) + SD(Shield Depleters).

As a general rule if you have racial tech weapons you should use them. All of them have advanatages over the more standard weapons in various areas.

I think that that is the strategy used most effectively by many. However other weapons can still be used effectively. I myself prefer the Meson Cannon over the APB and also enjoy the WMG(Wave Motion Gun) or Ripper Beam with Tractor beams.

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

If you ignore DUCs, you will be slaughtered in any early game wars versus Human opponents. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is not quite true. Most racial tech weapons are pure disadvantages compared to the DUC/PPB/APB line. A couple are useful, but most are not.

[ September 15, 2003, 18:54: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i was welcoming him to the forums, not you.

oh, ok, here's some cheese on toast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

*hands Dogscoff some cheese on toast* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is not quite true. Most racial tech weapons are pure disadvantages compared to the DUC/PPB/APB line. A couple are useful, but most are not.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm. I think they are all usefull. If not as a primary weapon then as a support tool. Organic and Psychic weapons are all solid and good weapons. Temporal is VERY usefull if your foe likes shields. Crystal is the only questionable tech IMHO. But still, alternating APB and shard canoons in the ship design can grant the heavy hitter (APB) an almost perfect armour piercing ability ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

The big slow weapons lose out against DUC/PPB/APB most of the time because they have a LOT less firepower overall. The only time they are superior is in quick WP battles. Other than that, they fail, all else being equal.

The telekinetic projector is a good weapon, until APB XII comes around. It is far more powerful than the best TKP.

The only thing that the Organic weapons have going for them is that they cost organics instead of minerals. So in times where building ships more quickly than the enemy matter, they sometimes prevail. But, they are substantially weaker than high level APBs.

Crystalline weapons are just a joke. Shard Cannons are only useful against Organic Races that use the OA, which is far weaker than shielding in large fleet battles.

Temporal weapons are almost all too weak. The only one that can even stand a chance against APBs is the Time Distortion Burst (I think that is what it is called...), but that is not more powerful than APB, just about the same. All you need is 1 or 2 heavy shield depleters (or a few more large ones), and enemy shielding does not matter all that much.

Of course it is possible to win with the racial weapons, but, all else being equal, the APB ships tend to win a lot more than other ships. This is because they have one of the best damage ratios in the game, they are not that expensive to build, AND they have one of the best ranges in the game. Racial weapons are fine for early and mid game, but late game, APBs are dominant. Effeciency is the key. Most racial weapons are highly inneffeicient.

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

Harumph!!

Weapons matter not. Being able to hit the opponent and not be hit by him is what matters.

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

Ah, so you like the "take religious, +20 defensiveness, -20 aggressiveness, and BRING 'EM ON!!!" strategy? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">All else being equal, weapons matter a great deal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

Ahh... but the key here is that only very rarely are all things equal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">All else being equal, weapons matter a great deal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, they would be supremely important in "Mediocrity"! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Oh, and the Talisman is for wooses! (this newly invented spelled care of yours truly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, and? I have never once lost to anyone using non-mainstream weapons.

Equal combat bonuses on each side occur very frequently, esp. mid to late game. Combat bonuses and damage/kT/ROF ratio are the two most important factors in combat. When combat bonuses are equal on both sides, they no longer matter. All that is left is the damage ratio. Sure, things like range and speed cane make a difference, but it is nothing compared to the first 2 items.

[ September 16, 2003, 01:09: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, and? I have never once lost to anyone using non-mainstream weapons.

Equal combat bonuses on each side occur very frequently, esp. mid to late game. Combat bonuses and damage/kT/ROF ratio are the two most important factors in combat. When combat bonuses are equal on both sides, they no longer matter. All that is left is the damage ratio. Sure, things like range and speed cane make a difference, but it is nothing compared to the first 2 items.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But some racial weapons - Temporal Cannon and High Energy Magnifier - have to-hit bonuses !

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Corollary: anyone who doesn't research projectile weapons should be dead (by projectily weapons) before he can utilize his advantage.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Corollary: anyone who doesn't research projectile weapons should be dead (by projectily weapons) before he can utilize his advantage.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mmm but that corollary is only true if they get into a very early war, in which case it only takes a few turns to research DUC.

PvK

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, and? I have never once lost to anyone using non-mainstream weapons.

Equal combat bonuses on each side occur very frequently, esp. mid to late game. Combat bonuses and damage/kT/ROF ratio are the two most important factors in combat. When combat bonuses are equal on both sides, they no longer matter. All that is left is the damage ratio. Sure, things like range and speed cane make a difference, but it is nothing compared to the first 2 items.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But some racial weapons - Temporal Cannon and High Energy Magnifier - have to-hit bonuses !</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but they are too small to make up for their extremely low damage... only useful in situations were you are behind your enemy in to hit bonus tech.

Re: Energy vs Ballistic weapons...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Corollary: anyone who doesn't research projectile weapons should be dead (by projectily weapons) before he can utilize his advantage.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mmm but that corollary is only true if they get into a very early war, in which case it only takes a few turns to research DUC.

PvK</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If someone shows up knocking on your HW's door with DUC V and you have DUC I, it is too late. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It all depends on the size of the map and number of players.