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Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.

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Oddly, I could read that without much effort. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Who knew spelling meant so little? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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it was still slow. i can read faster if it's spelt right.

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read it as if it had perfect spelling 0.0

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you mean you read it as if it wasn't spelled bad? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

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Woah. That was pretty easy to read. I can be pretty bad at spelling. But my typos are worse somehow. I tend to forget the Last letter -- "your" becomes "you", etc. And that does really spoil the flow of the text, although I often fail to notice.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">FINELY proof taht I am not a bad spller. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Honestly I read this faster than I would have if it was spelled correctly. I was like the words just were there for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I think there might be something to this.

[ September 15, 2003, 11:27: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

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That's pretty slick. I could read it with very little problem.

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Weird, it was weird at first but I could read it. This just demonstrates the mind's inherent ability to recognize patterns or unscramble them. Or something.

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It may be a property of the English language only - most of the words are rather short.

Can anybody try this with German text ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

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I think your subject title says it all.

Problem with the "keepers of the English language" is the thin skin they wear. Now, here in the US, that statement is more true than in England (where concern about the language is a bit more important).

I say "thin skin" because, rather than tell "someone" they aren't pronouncing (or spelling) a word correctly, the updates of dictionaries just go ahead and accept (and list) the growing bastardizations of the English language. (e.g., "Toward". Take a look in the dictionary and you will see an acceptable pronunciation of, "twardz", as if there was an "s" on the end of it...sheesh!)

In a writing class I attended a few years back, given by a PHD in English grammar from the University of Georgia, the instructor stated that English was an ever-changing language. He went on to state that spelling and grammar weren't so important any more so long as a person was able to convey an idea to another person. In other words, communication was the important factor, not accuracy.

Now, I don't claim to be a genius at grammar and spelling. But, I'll ride my "high horse" so long as I continue to obviously be (note the split infinitive I used to the left...on purpose) head and shoulders above 90% of the people I interact with each day.

Please note that my concern for speaking English correctly does not extend to those who use it as a second language. I salute ANYONE who HAS a second language. Well, besides Ebonics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif .

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I had quite a few problems to actually read this few sentences, it would have been much more easier if the letters were correctly placed for me. (I do not mind a typo here and there, but when no word is properly spelled... *Shivers*)

Thanks Slynky, I am glad to see I am not the only one who cares about spelling. I am not saying that my spelling is perfect obviously, you are in fact welcome to point out any typo or mistake I make. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (Especially in stories that is, but I am digressing)

And finally, isn't Towards an alternate spelling for Toward? (The latter is especially American according to my dictionary) It would explain the two different pronunciations. But I may be wrong of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NP. I "hear" you.

Towards is listed as a word. BUT, under the FIRST listing, toward, it lists as an acceptable pronunciationn as I mentioned...the "twardz" Version. This is maybe a bad example.

Let's try another of my Favorites, preventive. As in taking advance measures of protection (a rough definition). You will also find a listing of, preventitive (sp?). I think that people looked at the word and added an extra sylable. And the makers of dictionaries just added it instead of "saying", "Hey, dude, that isn't the way it's pronounced!".

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Dictionaries are not the arbitrators of language, but rather the reflection of it. This is not France, afterall.

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Yes, your point is still valid, even if the first example is perhaps not suitable. I have to admit I still didn't get the meaning of what you said, but I take your words for that as I am myself not an American. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (And that is also probably due to my natural silliness)

As for your other example, I have "preventative" in my own dictionary, which is supposedly a synonym of preventive as you pointed out. A quite weird modification there indeed.

Finally, as for the statements of this teach, sure English (and other Languages) are ever changing, a language no longer evolving is dead. But I don't believe that means we should forego spelling and grammar altogether, as these tools of the language are used to allow different individuals to communicate. Or perhaps he basically meant a few mistakes are not a big issue, as long as they don't lead to misinterpretations?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, are you alluding to our old academicians defending the "proper" and past French? Are we really the only country with such people? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif As for the dictionaries, ours are also reflecting the changes in the language, although these changes are only taken into accounts after a few years. I would also say French is evolving slower than English, but that's another subject. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 15, 2003, 19:05: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

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I was talking about the laws and the official governemnt institution to maintain the purity and such of the French language, not just some stuffy academians.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, I gather you are speaking of the "rules" (not exactly laws, but desirable translations, yes it is quite the same) to use French "equivalents" of English words. These ones aren't commonly used and usually funny or ludicrous. But perhaps you are also refering to other oddities? I am not too interested in the strange instructions coming from the French government concerning the language myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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I forget what the agency is called... but it is in charge of maintaining the offical French language and determining what words are allowed in it and what words are not. I do not know if it is still around, but it was started in the 1600s or 1700s IIRC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only thing I can think of being quite similar to your description would be the "Academy of France", but I am no expert in such areas. I would be interested to know more about that though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (French are rather proud of their language to say the least, so that wouldn't really surprise me)

[ September 15, 2003, 19:28: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

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Mnareil penatls are teh bset.

Hey tihs wired spnilleeg wulod mkae an inneristetg spceeh flie.

We have a similar problem with new words and deformations of existing word in Spanish.
Besides being distributed in so many countries that add their own regionalisms, we have may words imported by bad translations from English.

I suppose there are words that appear in the dictionary but are not considered correct speeching/writing in most Languages.
Well, there is a rule that says that the only Languages that don't change are dead Languages.

But of course that as Spanish spelling is phonetic, there isn't so much freedom to play with alternative spellings. And as words tend to be longer (though not as long as in German) we tend to recognize syllabes and parts instead of whole words.

No cero qeu etse raeedrnenmioto de larets fncouine tan bein en eapoñsl.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Les Imortals, I think they call them. I don't know what the real name of the institution is, but once someone it appointed to the board they are on it for life. I believe it was started during the French Revolution and I'm pretty sure they just recently curbed the term 'email'.

I await correction/calification from the appropriate source. UE?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It should be "Les Immortels", I know, I am nitpicking there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Then they are really the "French Academy" (not sure how it should be properly translated in English), but as for the real power of these "not really young" academicians, I will let UE speak about such matters if he knows more of this oddity. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Incidentally, the translation of email is supposed to be "mél" in French, and it only occurred two or three years ago. But according to them, we shouldn't be talking about "e-mails" in French. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (According to them being hopefully the key word)

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Well, one thing I am fairly certain of, I don't like the French. It's rare that I make such a sweeping remark, but of the many encounters I have had with them (in their country and in news reports), I don't care much for them at all.

If you care about my opinion at all (which I will certainly understand if you don't), I'll give you my opinion where I think things really turned to s--t.

Not knowing the date, but sometime in the sixties, there was a worldwide effort to come to agreements over a "universal" language. One of the foremost reasons was due to planes needing to land at airports. I'm sure there were other reasons. After a while, it came down to French and English. English won out. That's why most every airport in the world speaks english to the pilots. In my opinion, the French got pretty sour about it. And since then, they have been on a personal vendetta to stop English from "gaining ground" in their country. Among other hostilities.

I don't speak from just news reports, but I speak from visiting their country. Even the big blue "I's" (standing for Information) in tourist areas...the people staffing the counters would not speak English. Contrast this to MANY other tourist areas where the "country" endeavored to cater to English-speaking tourists. Yes, I don't speak another language. I studied French in high school (boy, am I sorry!). I used to have a vocabularly of 2,000 - 3,000 words in (spoken) German and I was the company translator when I was posted in Thailand (where I lived for over 3 years and became pretty fluent in spoken Thai). So, don't label me as a "stuck-up" American.

To me, to get back on track, there is a difference in allowing a piece of slang to be added to the dictionary. For instance, "dog" (meaning a good friend) or "hacker" (I think everyone understands this). That's fine. NEW words and meanings are OK. But to take an existing word and mispronounce it and have the dictionary change to accept it...that's a bastardization of the language.

To assume, stepping on the "speaker's stand" for a moment, for example, that African-Americans who were born in the US, grew up in the US, and educated in the US are unable to speak correct English because of their heritage (verb tense and so forth) is ludicrous and therefore have to have their bastardization of the English language "approved" by suggesting we call their (I am generalizing) gross use of the English language, Ebonics, is nothing more than a showing of "thin skin" when faced with the various black "power" Groups who's mission is to seek out those who would DARE to hint at predjucice.

And before I get labeled a racist, I don't like the ineptitude in grammar and English I encounter each day while living in the southern part of the US. "The South" It should be SUCH an insult that others speak one's own language as a second language better than they do! I'd be ashamed!

And, having said this, I know Fyron will hop in and try to start a "Geo" discussion/argument with me. But I don't care. I've said my piece and what I SHOULD do is get another website where I can issue my rants like my hero, Dennis Miller.

PS: Sorry for such a long post.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What the hell does that mean? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

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Still, can anybody test the original hypothesis to be a true and universal universal statement of human mind function or an another anecdotal freak of English language ?

Please, scramble a similar text in German and see if anybody here can read it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

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Here is the translation into German. You have to scramble it on your own. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Forschern an einer englischen Universität zufolge spielt es keine Rolle, in welcher Reihenfolge die Buchstaben eines Wortes angeordnet sind, wichtig ist lediglich, daß der erste und der letzte Buchstabe an der korrekten Position sind. Der Rest kann ein totaler Buchstabensalat und trotzdem lesbar sein. Der Grund dafür ist, daß wir nicht die einzelnen Buchstaben sondern das Wort als Ganzes lesen.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Last time i ran into dog used to mean other than a type of furry animal, it was negative.

[ September 15, 2003, 22:22: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Impressive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Now we need a reaction of other German speaking people to this gibberish http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Still, even German has a lot of 3-4 letter words. I can do a similar test in Russian but wonder if anybody here can respond http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">FWIW, I found the English scrambled by native English-speakers to be easier to read than that scrambled by second-language speakers. *shrug* Maybe English speakers scramble into patterns which still make some sense in the language (like vowel/consonant placement, potential syllables, etc.).

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Remember, you have to scramble it first. The below german text is spelled correctly (well, at least I hope so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ).

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Damn, I read that with no problem. I guess that would be a good way of "hiding" the text right out in front of everyone, well it would have to be people that don't speak English well.

Slinky, your a funny guy, saying all that AND from Atlanta *chuckle*. I do agree with you, I do not think of myself as a prejudice person, but when I can not understand someone speaking, I have a lower opinion of that person (of course if English is a second language, I can give ALOT of slack for that), I was with a co-worker at an AM/PM and the guy behind the counter spoke horrid English, and my buddy said something to the effect "why can't people that come to this country learn to speak clear English" and the guy behind the counter said "why? I was born here.". Very sad.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can and did test it on Jake's original post.

It slows me down! Yes I can puzzle it out fairly easily but I can read much faster when all words are spelled correctly-- and so can you! Even an everyday misspelling like "lite" in place of "light" slows me down. Observe your own reading; I'll bet poor spelling slows you down too.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It took me a few seconds to read this one. Actually, for a couple of moments I could not decode Mnareil and penatls, but by seeing the Last three words I immediately recognized the entire sentence.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Towards is the accepted British use of the word. Same with preventative (I find it hard to believe there is such a word as "preventive")

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, I see now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I was wrong - it works not only in English.
Here is scrambled Russin translation. I could read it almost like a normal text !!

по рзелульаттам илссеовадний одонго анлигйсокго унвиертисета, не иеемт
занчнеия, в кокам пряокде рсапожолены бкувы в солве. галвоне, чотбы преавя и пслоендяя бквуы блыи на мсете. осатьлыне бкувы мгоут селдовтаь в плоонм бсепордяке, все-рвано ткест чтаитсея без побрелм. пичрионй эгото ялвятеся то, что мы не чиатем кдаужю бкуву по отдльенотси, а все солво цликеом .

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Oleg, I have to agree with you. I can read that russian text with the exact same level of ease I would read normal russian...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Towards is the accepted British use of the word. Same with preventative (I find it hard to believe there is such a word as "preventive")</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, referring to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary (copyright 1985...we have some old stuff in the government... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ), "preventative" is listed. The definition is simply, "preventive". So, look a bit lower and you see, "preventive". THERE, one can see the real definition. I happen to know about this word in particular since I started in the computer business over 30 years ago and it was routine business for IBM to schedule preventive maintenance. The additional sylable, IMO, came along sometime afterward due to the inability of people to look at the word, preventive, and pronounce it correctly. And then, people just added it to the dictionary instead of simply saying, "There's no such word as 'preventative'."

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My own dictionary lists preventive as the "correct" spelling, while it was written in 2000 or 2001 and is rather British. Truth is hard to find when it comes to Languages or even linguistics, so I gather other dictionaries disagree with that I wrote above. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As for your rant a page before, I would partially agree. (And yes, I read it and care about your opinion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) I wrote "partially" because I cannot speak of how English-speakers felt when coming in France for obvious reasons. I don't know about your hypothesis to explain this hostility or at least, this distrust from the French government, which would be linked to the choice of an "universal" language to be used in airports . To use English as the basic language in such cases is sensible IMO, simply because English is speaking much more widely than French to begin with. French was perhaps an universal language before, but that was five or six centuries ago so. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Nevertheless, I have to admit French usually have an issue with English, many barely know this language, and there are some who, even if they are fluent in English, are reluctant to use that language. I'm wondering, is such an attitude common in other countries or is that yet another oddity of France?

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just so we have an opposing arguement, preventative sounds more like a word for something that prevents, while preventive sounds more like a verb.

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I too had no problems reading it; yes, a little slower maybe by a fraction, but very readable nevertheless.

Just to throw a spin on it, maybe it has something to do with howe we see, not specifically how we read. I read before how our eyes generally recognize the outlines of objects (the areas of contrast) rather than the "fill" areas. Our minds just fill in the outline with the appropriate information. Maybe that has something to do with it. Remember there are a limited number of words that have similar beginning and ending letters and who are the same length as each other. Our minds just quickly calculate the options and "fill in" based on the context of the surrounding words.

Just an observation and hypothesis...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ROFLMAO!!!!!!

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm certainly not qualified on the subject. I'm only drawing conclusions based on some other facts. And, as Dennis Miller would say, "Of course, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong."

I think things (relationship) between France and the US turned bad several years after WW2. The US kept troops there. France said to get out. The US left. My dad was one of them and from firsthand knowledge, I can tell you a lot of people in the US were upset. He told me of a newspaper graphic that had a picture of gravestones in France with a caption that said, "Some of the US soldiers can't leave."

In the late 50's or early 60's, the "world" decided a universal language was needed (and there is no need to repeat my story). I'll just add that ANYONE with any sense would have to understand the economic impact/benefit of having one's country's language chosen. The final 2 Languages, French and English, were debated hotly. When French was, hmmmmmm, "discarded" and English chosen, I'm saying that left a bitter pill in French stomachs. I'm saying, fueled by the feeling their country was being occupied after the war and the selection of English over French as an international language, many French people became upset/angry. And just as a lot of people in the US are upset that the French seem to be a big "thorn" in the US/Iraq/terrorist situation, a lot of French still harbor ill feelings about the US.

Now, I realize there are lots of side discussions one could delve into. It's certainly a complicated subject. And I'm no authority for sure. But with firsthand experience while visiting France, I'd have to say I experience more aggression there than any other country I visited. And part of the reason, I believe, I tried to explain above.

(pardon any typos...rushing this through from work)

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I won't pretend to speak for other counties but I can speak from experience. I can easily say, from personal experience in my travels, the following:

(1) The older a person was, the higher probability they didn't speak English.

(2) The "poorer" a country was, the greater the chance the (average) population did not speak English.

(3) The more a country (or area) was a tourist attraction, the better the chances English was spoken (except for France).

Those are some general assumtions I have drawn. Please understand, I was not the typical tourist. I RARELY used a tourist bus or travel agent. I drove or flew to get where I wanted to go and I rented a car (or used mine) or used the wonderful rail system to get around after that. And while I DID visit "tourist" spots, I made it a point to travel in "non-tourist" places (with my case of camera equipment)

In closing, I'd like to show my objectivity a bit. In general, US tourists are more likely to be a--holes than the average tourist from another country. Arragant a--holes. Many were the times I was embarrassed to be American. And, to stay on topic, during the time I traveled heavily, I noted it was rare that an American spoke the language of the country I was in. We Americans REALLY suck when it comes to speaking a second language.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Really interesting there. I would also like to point out there were already tensions during WW2, near the end of the conflict, when the future status of France was debated between Churchil, the current US president at this time (sorry, I forgot his name. *Sighs*) and De Gaulle for France. And then aftewards what you said occurred, France was ruled by De Gaulle and the US troops had to leave France. (Quite strangely, I don't recall having studied any of this in our history. Well, maybe it isn't really strange after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Then for the issue of an universal language, I don't think it has directly affected the French, but the government then could have been upset by this decision, leading to a few legislations here and there. (Even though English as a universal language makes sense to me, but perhaps saying so will get me sued by some French. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) It could have happened, taking advantage of the French pride, but I am no expert on such fields.

Now the interesting question would be to know if other tourists from other countries (Germany for instance) have also felt this aggression. We would know if Frenchmen do have a problem with America and Britain, or if they have issues with everybody who isn't French. (That would be quite a lot of people) Quite paradoxal in either case when you know France is one of the most visited country in the world. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Frenchmen and Americans do have similarities after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Your average French will speak an average French, not very good from time to time, a few will be able to speak fluently two Languages (French slang does NOT count as a foreign language), and I have yet to see a French able to speak *three* Languages, that is to say a French who has a common understanding of these three Languages, including French.

As for your points, I haven't traveled a lot myself so I cannot really speak of such topics. But it makes sense, especially the first statement, the odds for a old French to speak English are... well, so low that the Hearth of Gold is required to meet such a person. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 16, 2003, 19:47: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">????

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">????</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It was an OT remark in an OT topic, so sue me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The Hearth of Gold (silly typo) is a quite special ship in "An Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams. *Conspiratorial nod to Fyron*

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ah, thanks.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, I gather you are speaking of the "rules" (not exactly laws, but desirable translations, yes it is quite the same) to use French "equivalents" of English words. These ones aren't commonly used and usually funny or ludicrous. But perhaps you are also refering to other oddities? I am not too interested in the strange instructions coming from the French government concerning the language myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well I don't know about laws about what gets made 'offically french' but the french here in Canada (in Quebec) certainly have laws that make damn sure you use the french language. Yes they actually have language cops. It's illegal to put up a sign in front of your business unless it is in French too. And the French has to be bigger I believe. You can't even run an English only web site in Quebec. I even read a story were kids on a shool ground were reprimanded for speaking English. I don't know why this bugs me so much since I live in Ontario but it does. It's just so unbelievably undemocratic. heck I would go so far as to call it racist.

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My memory sucks pretty bad sometimes, DavidG, but several years back...was there some talk of Quebec "exiting" Canada? Or something real controversial like that.