Mines & Treaties
 

1) I thought both of the 'yellow' treaties (non-intercourse & non-agression) kept my mine fields active. But, the same turn that an opponent accepted a non-agression treaty proposal of mine I found his ships all over my border systems. The mine fields (at the warp points) were not swept and he could not have come by other routes. What gives?

As a follow on: at what treaty level do players gain access to each other's re-supply depots?

2) Even stanger: A few turns later the same ships were leaving by those same mined warp points. They blew up of course. And, I ended up with a war which should never have happened if the mine fields kept the ships out in the first place.

The strange thing about it is, when the turn opened, I saw his ships just sitting there. Mine fields only activate when a ship moves into the field, right? Maybe in turn based play ships always show up where they stopped Last, even if that's at the point of their demise in a mine field.

3) To clarify how mine damage works (from what I've read):

a) Either a fleet will be completely destroyed and some mines remain, all intact; or, the mine field will be completely used up with some ships remaining, all intact.

b) If damage now accumulates from component to component of a give ship, then all damage from all warheads of a given mine are deducted from a ship's total hit points, with the remainder saved from the Last component damaged (not destoyed) is added to the next random mine hit until that component is destoyed, etc, etc, until that ship is completey destoyed (by random hits if more than one ship) or all mines are expended.

If b) is true then using larger warheads isn't necessary to achieve kills on ships with large components (ie, colony module or certain armor types).

Larger size mines (not warheads) are a benefit if one wishes to pack as much explosive power into the 100 mine sector limit as possible.

Larger mines cost more and take longer to build of course, which may be a consideration if they're going to be swept anyway.

Do I have it or am I still off target?

Thanks for all the info and work on the forum to the regular contributers. This is a rare chance when I actually have the time to write something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

I don't know about non-I and non-A as I haven't used them up to now. Resupply depots can be seen and used from Military Alliance upwards.

Your thoughts about mines are correct. Mines and ships hit each other and are used / damaged until either no mines or no ships are left. Compartment damage is remembered and carried over from one mine to next. Unspent mines or surviving ships remain.
Larger warheads give more explosive power to a minefield, but from a certain stage onwards no big fleet will travel without mine sweeper support, and they sweep the same number of units regardless of warhead size. So, basically, i consider large warheads as a waste of money.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

Non-Intercourse is the only treaty that does not protect you (and the other empire) from minefields. It means nothing, as ships still engage in combat. All it is for is for RP purposes with other humans, as it has no in-game effects (except some on happiness, same as with all treaties signed). Non-Aggression is the lowest treaty that actually means anything, and it means your empires will not engage in combat, period. It applies to minefields as well. You can not hit mines owned by an empire that you have a NA treaty with.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

This brings up a question I had. For the first time ever I had a race under a Subjugation treaty. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif It did break all other treaties (which is what I really wanted), but what else does it mean. I can not see any shipyard locations or resupply points (He may not have any?!?) Will we fight if I go into his sectors? I thought it would work like a souped up Partnership treaty, but am unsure now if I can even see all his locations. The other players have a sort of ring around the rosie partnerships going on, so I can see most of everything. I have never gotten a Subj to work in a test game so have no experience with it. What else can I do? My hope was to break the treaties so others would kill him off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif I am not close enought to do it my self. Surrender is not allowed.He is too far away for me to attack directly, therefore the diplomacy option. I am demanding planets, but they keep whining that it is too expensive. Anyone have any good tricks up their sleeve. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

Look in the help files (the Manual folder). It tells you exactly what all the treaties do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Some resources get transfered from the subjugated empire's production to the dominant empire each turn, as well as some other things IIRC.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

You shouldn't be able to use their resuply bases, as you need a Military Alliance and above to do that. Likewise, you shouldn't see their systems, since you need to be a Partner with them.

Protectorate/SubVersion are treaties below Trade Alliance (and above), so it means you have a neutral relationship with the given Empire. However, I say "should" because I have yet to try this treaty. When an Empire is desperate enough to accept such a treaty, I am often able to... erh, borrow its planets with ease. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I should also say what a Subjugation treaty is supposed to do at least. It means the targeted Empire can no longer have any other treaty, they give you an important portion of their resources, and they share every technological discovery with you. That's quite a lot, but not many Empires are likely to comply with this kind of "agreement".

[ October 01, 2003, 21:08: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

I do get 40% of resources, just like it says.

It did break all other treaties, just like it says.

I assume I get NEW research, but at my level and his production, I doubt he will make something I don't have already (No tech trading allowed)

The description get kind of vague after that but treat him like a neutral I can do. Now if I can go 10 systems over and have my troops suggest they join http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Thanks for the replies!

[ October 01, 2003, 21:27: Message edited by: Parasite ]

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This function was removed in a very early patch of the game. You won't get research results automatically.

Combat won't result if you occupy the same sector, but I've noticed ships taking a path around. This must be a side effect, it's a yellow treaty, so the AI assumes combat will result.

These treatys are definitely wierd.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

Even if the automatic techology trading worked, it wouldn't be that useful in such a circumstance. Do you expect an Empire whose score is eight time lower than yours (and which gives away almost half his research points) to be really productive as far as research is concerned? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And sure, these treaties can be rather weird. You are not in war, you are not "without" treaty (Unknown status), but you are not allies either. So I wouldn't be surprised if there were an oddity here and there.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks. That clears up the initial question. I still wonder why he impaled himself on my minefields at all on the way out. Did he break the treaty on his own and then retreat??? That seems like a very large blunder. (AI opponent Version 1.6 Gold).

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

AIs make lots of blunders. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Humans make for much more challenging opponents. Also, make sure to upgrade to the latest patch (1.84). There have been some improvements to the AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Larger warheads certainly seem a waste, as they give no added benefit. Larger mines (200 or 300 kt)however, can double or triple the number of small warheads per sector. I think you are saying larger mines are also a waste, once sweeping is developed.

Thanks for your response

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Its on the list http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Larger warheads do not cost more, just the (little) research to get the tech. Always use larger warheads if available. Larger mines cost more, so are not effective because of sweepers as below. IMO Small Mines/Large Warheads. As per the DSGuide, make cheap small mines with only one warhead to get more mines out.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

I wouldn't advise to actually improve the mines, as usually a hundred small mines is more than enough to do damage on the opponent. It means something like 20,000 damage points, and if your opponent sends in a fleet having more than 20,000 armor points, you should win no matter what. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (Researching mines could be useful in the mods where they are other types of mines on the other hand)

I have myself one or two questions on minefields, after Loser pointed out something to me in our game. How are working cloaked minesweepers under the following circumstances?

1) Cloaked minesweepers are going into an unknown minefield. Do they sweep the mines, do they get destroyed or do they make their way through the minefield without trouble? And what about a known minefield?

2) What happened with a cloaked fleet including cloaked minefields? Same question as above.

Just in case, I should uncloak my minesweepers, but it may be difficult when you don't know where are the minefields. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure about that?

I believe they do cost more. But they do more damage.

I generally have two Mine designs. One Small Mine with a single Cobalt Warhead I for absolute cheap and fast mine production. One Large Mine with four Cobalt Warhead III for those situations where I want to maximized damage but I don't think the enemy will bring a minesweeper, like scattering mines in a random movement system, mining random sectors, mining colonizable worlds.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

Larger warheads do cost more (slighty more at least), 100 mineral for third level warheads instead of 50 mineral for the first ones. (40 rad/20 rad IIRC)

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

That's a significant number when you're trying to build as many Mines as possible in a single turn.

Cloaked minesweepers will not sweep mines under any circumstances. Well, I'm not sure if the mines are already in the same sector as they are... you may be able to use the Sweep button.

Uncloaked minesweepers will sweep mines even if they are in a fleet with cloaked ships.

The limitation (per your question on the PbW forum) on Mines is one hundred per sector, not system.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

Cloaked minesweepers will not uncloak and will not sweep mines when encountering a minefield.

Slick.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

And I gather cloaked minesweepers do get hit by these mines? Hmm, yet another reason to such these expendable scouts, and their Stealth Armor powered counter-part.

That is what I saw Loser, don't ask me why I believe since I started the game the limit is per system. Now I feel really silly to have destroyed minefields on a given system to be able to launch 100 mines on another sector in the same system.

Thank to both of you for your answers, I should forego this scheme involving Stealth Armor and minesweepers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 02, 2003, 15:53: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gah! You pervert! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif That's so cruel!

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Now you see why I was so cautious Loser, always bringing enough minesweepers to deal with 120 mines a turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (Well, except for the occasional "recon" ship here and there)

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, you are right. I even checked it before, but looked at the wrong number.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but once I got you cautious I might as well have stopped building mines. I could have turned that industry over to something more useful.

Because once you're cautious, you will be protected from the mines and the mines are no longer a protective measure. At that point they are just a drain on your economy.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but once I got you cautious I might as well have stopped building mines. I could have turned that industry over to something more useful.

Because once you're cautious, you will be protected from the mines and the mines are no longer a protective measure. At that point they are just a drain on your economy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True enough, if you could think of something else to order your space yards to do. And as you were lacking weaponry, perhaps additional warships wouldn't have been useful. Or perhaps they would have. I didn't build much mines on my side, principally because of the economical strain you mentioned, and because they aren't that useful when you are on the offensive. Fleets are good enough to defend systems, and unlike mines, they can even glass a world from time to time, or intercept stolen ships, or spy fleets, or for scouting systems, and so on.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Precisely. And once your enemy realizes you don't have 100 mines over each warp point and planet -- he splits up his fleet. And gets the defenceless fleet slammed by 15 mines you just built. So he resends the sweepers, so you stop building mines ... lather, rinse, repeat.

Mines and sweepers are very important in PBW. My current enemy never entered my space without 100 mine sweeping ability. I only had 30 or so at my warp points. Then I wrecked 3 or 4 troop transports with my fields of 5 mines located one sector to the left. Ha. Funny stuff.

[ October 02, 2003, 19:23: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gah! You pervert! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif That's so cruel!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is a fairly common tactic. I usually surround WPs with a few mines in each sector, so that the enemy colony ships will make a wall of minefield markers, and then they will get stuck, unable to find a path! >:-)

[quote]Originally posted by Arkcon:

Quote:

Originally posted by Loser: Mines and sweepers are very important in PBW. My current enemy never entered my space without 100 mine sweeping ability. I only had 30 or so at my warp points. Then I wrecked 3 or 4 troop transports with my fields of 5 mines located one sector to the left. Ha. Funny stuff.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem is that 100 sweeping ability is EXTREMELY easy to get. Just 5 LCs with sweepers II can sweep 100 mines. It generally only takes a few extra turns to get enough protection with your fleets (except in very early game, ofc). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 02, 2003, 21:31: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What if they are using stealth armor instead of actual cloaking devices? I just discovered stealth armor while reading through components.txt today - never bothered researching armor high enough to get it before, and am intrigued by the possibilities and limitations of it.

SpaceBadger

[ October 03, 2003, 04:01: Message edited by: SpaceBadger ]

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What if they are using stealth armor instead of actual cloaking devices? I just discovered stealth armor while reading through components.txt today - never bothered researching armor high enough to get it before, and am intrigued by the possibilities and limitations of it.

SpaceBadger</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you cloak them, they won't sweep mines. Doesn't matter what the means of cloaking is. Not sure if this is a feature or a bug, but it is the way it works.

Slick.

Re: Mines & Treaties
 

Definitely a feature. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif