OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

There has been news lately saying that the universe may not be infinite in size, but could be only about 70 billion light years across. Space wraps around so that light from a galaxy would eventually come back to where it started. Somehow they figured this out by observing the background microwave radiation of space, but I don't understand exactly what their reasoning is.

Anyway, it's very interesting that we may soon know whether the universe is finite or infinite in size. Here is an article about this:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994250

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

so, if space wraps a millionth of a degree right, you simply keep turning a millionth of a degree left.

so it is infinite, wether it curves or not.

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">no
stuff going into a black hole is falling because space/time is folding (its called gravity).

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

it's not folding. if it where folding, gravity would be 'random'. it's either stretched or squished, i'm not sure which. that is, if gravity is a function of space-time.

so, what specifically do you mean by curved? if you traverse an expanding series of circles in a straight line, to someone who's vision is defined by the circles, you curve. that's my point.

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

Boy, we're really, getting the easy questions this week: What's the meaning of life? Is space truly infinite? Just how bad was "Contact"?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">only 70 billion light years? Is that all?

I have to say I'm not surprised- after all, if you believe in the big bang then a finite universe is kind of inevitable. I like the idea of it wrapping back round on itself, too. The way the combat area should in se4...

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

Take things to 2-D for a moment, and consider a Flat universe (or planet)
goes straight along, and if there's no discontinuity, then its infinite in size.

Now have it curved around into a sphere.
Its finite in size, and if you're persistent enough to travel in a straight line you'll go all the way around and end up where you started.

You'll also notice that for large triangles, the angles DON'T add up to 180 degrees. Depending on the radius of the sphere and the size of the triangle, it will be somewhat greater than that.
(Take three points "almost" along the equator of your sphere - Three points form a triangle, but the internal angles are all "almost" 180 degrees!)
One point at the pole, and two others on the equator "east" and "west" will make 90+90+180 = 360 (!)

In practical situations of course, you only have a small triangle compared to the radius of the sphere, so you don't notice it very easily.

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

Even if the universe is only 70 billion light years across, it will continue to expand. Approximately 66% of the universe is made up of the mysterious "dark energy", an anti-gravitational form of energy that is forcing the universe into a continual and accelerating expansion. When examining the spectral shifts in light from distant galaxies, astronomers find that nearly all are moving away from us at high speed, showing the expansion. Therefore, the universe really has no limits, as it will continually expand before we could hope to hit the edge.

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">95-98%.

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">only 70 billion light years? Is that all?

I have to say I'm not surprised- after all, if you believe in the big bang then a finite universe is kind of inevitable. I like the idea of it wrapping back round on itself, too. The way the combat area should in se4...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If there was a big bang whose cigarette lighted the stuff up?

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dave Lister, using jump leads from Starbug (according to the brummie BTL attendant in "Back to Reality". =-)

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

I have always found it funny that we as humans are constantly making these predictions that encompass everything despite the fact that we can't even manage to get off our own planet and visit the next closest planet. The best we have so far is visiting our own moon.

So we haven't left our planet we haven't explored our solar system we haven't checked out the galaxy, if you follow dark matter theory then the majority of everything out there we still know nothing about and yet we now know the size of the universe how old it is and when it was made?

Don't make me laugh.

Edit - Don't get me wrong. I am all for going out and exploring and finding new stuff and theorizing about it. But I don't think anyone should be taking this stuff about the UNIVERSE too seriously. Our knowledge base and point(s?) of observation are far too narrow and small to make anything even resembling an accurate guess.

[ October 10, 2003, 16:10: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

I'm with you, Cyrien. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PvK

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

Years ago I saw a show expounding the "Rubber Band Theory" of (I think) sub-atomic particles and their relationships to each other. I really don't remember too much about it, other than thinking, "You guys sure are making very certain statements about stuff you really don't know too much about." The theory might be true for all I know, though I haven't heard anything else about it. I just find it interesting that the guys on TV never say something like, "Well, we noticed that the particles seemed to act kind of like rubber bands, so we think that things might be this way...." Instead they say, "Having observed this phenomenon, we now believe that things behave in this manner...." They neglect first to mention how big a group "we" is, and second neglect to mention just how accurate their observations might be, or what other possibilities might explain their observaions. This is nothing against the actual scientists doing the work, just the guys who get on TV and try to look like they are sure of what is going on. In that particular case, I found it humorous to hear someone expounding on the fact that everything is really held together by rubber bands (my interpretation, not his http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

My favorite has always been the number of atoms in the universe. Recently I have started to see it used as a fact by various periodicals. I think what it was stated to be was something around 10^78 to just under 10^81. I don't even want to know what would cause a person to decide that they could guess at the number of atoms in the universe, because a guess is all it is going to be. A rather wild one at that.

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

Only 10^78? Twelve grams of carbon have 10^23 atoms all by themselves..

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

Don't know about the carbon but I do know the number was less than 10^100 as that was used as a comparison number for something else in another article. (The number of calculation a 333 Qbit processor would be capable of perhaps). Of course I am just working from memory here soooo. On the other hand I am also pretty confident in the numbers I gave as being the ones "they" gave. So take it up with "them". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">[IMG=http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1065817971.bmp[/IMG]

not exactly sure if this is what your thinking about, but it is 180. unless your talking pyramids?

[ October 10, 2003, 20:56: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

What's a few orders of magnitude between friends

( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif old physics joke http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif )

The triangle is drawn on the outside of a sphere. you can make a triangle with 3 90degree angles. One at the pole and two at the equator. Equalateral trangle 270 degrees total from the corners.

[ October 10, 2003, 21:01: Message edited by: Parasite ]

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, but Twelve tons of carbon have only 10^29 atoms.

Twelve million tons has only 10^35...

And we've still got 43 orders of magnitude to go...

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

43 orders of magnitude to go, 43 orders of.... oops, wrong thread (wrong forum?), wrong something anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ok.

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">95-98%.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you may be confusing dark energy with dark matter. Yes, they estimate that 99.5% of all the energy and matter in the universe is made up of dark energy and dark matter. However, astronomers believe that approximately 66% is dark energy, while 33% is dark matter, with 'normal' matter only being 0.5% of the total mass/energy total of the universe. In other words, we as people are pretty rare in the grand scheme of things.

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

About that triangle problem;

Are the sides curving around the surface of the sphere? If that is the case, it is no longer a triangle.

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">10^78 atoms... in the universe
10^78 atoms... in the universe
and if one little atom, should accidentally split,
there'd be...
(10^78)-1 atoms... in the universe...

Come on everybody, you know the words, join in.

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

hmmm, interesting topic. And I can set the record straight..

The Universe IS Finite. (but we're only at .0000000000000001%)
Man's knowledge IS Finite. (but we're only at .0000000000000001%)
Life IS Finite. (yup, we're all gonna die.)

Silly questions deserve silly answers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? That much? Wow. We must be further along than I thought. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And what's this about everyone is going to die! I plan on living forever! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

(10^78)-1 atoms... in the universe
(10^78)-1 atoms... in the universe
and if one little atom, should accidentally split,
there'd be...
(10^78)-2 atoms... in the universe...

Cyrien, ever heard 'i plan on living forever...so far, so good?'

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought when you split an atom you got two, not one less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif You will be counting for a long time. Sorry, this was just too funny for my twisted sense of humor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [Edit] I ate a piece of cheese in your honor.

[ October 13, 2003, 19:50: Message edited by: Parasite ]

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

Yes I have heard that one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And you only get two atoms if you split a heavier atom. If you were to split a hydrogen atom (is that possible?) you would get a free nucleus and electrons... Hrmm...a great big burning ball of plasma we like to call stars? Cept that is fusion... AHHHHHH!

Re: OT - Is the universe finite in size?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">we here at mousecorp would like to gage the success of our product. therefore...

now that your all screaming in horror, which comment was it that you liked?