Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

Regarding: Shotgun Component (a counter to Point Defense)

I originally posted this in the PvK Balace Mod thread, and seeing as I got the Cheese approval, I will try for more attention...

I had an idea that might bring some more balance to the game, or at the very least, open up new strategies.

Before I get to the meat of it though, what strikes me most about SEIV is that there isn't just ONE set strategy for weapons and ships and what not. You have options. You have counter measures upon counter measures upon counter measures. That's fun becuase you have to keep being flexible. Every game can be slightly different.

Well, one thing I have noticed, and one thing I have seen repeated is the short half-life of fighters in the game. Yeah, you can make them still work in late game, but really, you're just building fleets to get chewed up by those pesky Point Defense weapons.

So i ask you, what is the counter measure to overcome point defense?

Beam weapons.

But the answer is the problem. Beam weapons are your only real long term solution. So much so, people tend to neglect the Torpedo and Seeker techs. It's a dead end, right? So everyone is running around with beam weapons, not much variety there.

So here is what i was thinking, a new component.

Call it the "Shotgun whatever".

The idea behind this component would be that it shoots out a bunch of cheap seekers to overwhelm the enemies Point Defense, thereby allowing your fighters and more powerful torpedos to get through.

Now, in order to simulate the "overwhelming shotgun" effect of these, the size of the component should be small- maybe 1 - 5 Kt. So you could put dozens on a ship. Now the damage caused by these seekers would be negligible because they are little more than 'dumb rocks'. So maybe 1-3 points of damage, if any at all.

What this does is provide an enffective means to COUNTER point defense. (One need look at the Missle Defense argument to see what I am getting at).

Does anyone think the AI coulb be modified to implement something like this?

Cheers.

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

my approval means something! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

uh, you do realize that the only mod i've finished so far is a short one dealing with QNP?

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

One should never undersell their own achievements! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

well, i have scared Atrocities at least twice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

but, anyway, if i keep this up you'll never get a serious answer.

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

Here is an old idea I had in a previous mod (the D-Mod)

Name := Decoy Missile I
Description := Missile fired to 'soak up' point-defense so the real missiles get through. Causes minimal damage itself.
Pic Num := 156
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 10
Cost Minerals := 75
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 75
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 7034
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Missile Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Military Science
Tech Level Req 2 := 2
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Seeking
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets
Weapon Damage At Rng := 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Normal
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Seeker
Weapon Display := 1
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := capshpms.wav
Weapon Family := 87
Weapon Seeker Speed := 12
Weapon Seeker Dmg Res := 25

This went up for several levels each adding more range and Seeker Dmg Res, they keys were the range , dmg res and seeker speed, they would fire and fly ahead of the missiles, soaking up the PD as they came. Rate of Fire was great too.

Other keys to making missiles/fighters Last longer in the game are modding the fighters to have base damage points (ie the fighter itself before armour or shields) and increase the rate of fire of missiles (to 2 or 1). (or like my Mount Mod, add a number of miniturization mounts so more and more missiles could be mounted on a ship, that way missiles would eventually overwhelm the opponent).

[ October 15, 2003, 21:43: Message edited by: Deathstalker ]

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

A few possiblities:

1) Phasing missiles, that warp the Last few squares, thus skipping short-ranged point defense systems.

2) Armored missiles, like in MOO2, that can absorb high damage (PD weapons would have to become weaker for this to be realistic).

3) Energy/plasma torpedoes, that simply absorb PD fire without being affected at all. Or that get hotter and deadlier when exposed to PD fire:)

4) MIRV missiles - similar to the shotguns, the point is to overwhelm.

5) Cloaked missiles, that cannot be fired upon, or add +80% evade.

6) Laser-heads (like in Honor Harrington) that detonate far from the target (out of PD range), and use the detonation energy to pump a laser that strikes the target.

Of course, I don't know which of these can be added with the existing game engine, and having never played the extant mods, maybe some are already included.

-Cherry

7) PD's using supplies.

[ October 15, 2003, 22:02: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

which brings it to a grand total of two woman i've seen post on here.

s'funny. women are supposed to like to talk.

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

Some girls look at the night sky and say, "Twinkle twinkle, little star; how I wonder what you are."

I say, "I wonder who lives in that star system, and how I could exploit them."

It's all a matter of perspective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

Of course the simple solution is to reduce the accuracy of the PD weapons. The 70% bonus always did seem a tad high to me. Reduce it to 40% and watch the fur fly!

[ October 15, 2003, 22:22: Message edited by: Grandpa Kim ]

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can't do with the current system. Would be great for SEV.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could do something with this by increasing missile damage resistance.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't think that one can be done under current engine either. SEV where are you!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Could only be done with the same technique as the shotguns. Lots of small sized ones. No way of having a single component firing lots at once or having the warhead split... *sigh*

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cannot be fired upon would be pretty strong maybe overly so. ECM missiles is good idea though, but sadly no way to do it that I am aware of.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope... can't be done.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well... now you know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, but they generally want to talk about other topics than how to enslave a galaxy.

Saber Cherry is a veteran of the MOO 3 forums, too. (I seriously doubt anyone else would have 'accidently' chosen that same very unique name! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) She's quite a serious gamer.

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

Oooh! Somebody remembers me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I kind of left those forums after MOO3 came out. So, it's been a while. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

-Cherry

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

Good thing you found SEIV then... otherwise it might be difficult to find a worthwhile 4x in space. And lets not even mention those dreadful 5X's.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ October 15, 2003, 22:51: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

DS your back http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Send me an email some time

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

The other major problem with PDCs than the 70% to hit bonus is the 5 range. This allows dozens of ships to stack their PD fire over a single square (such as that the missiles are traveling in). If you drop their range to 1 or 2, then you greatly reduce the stacking effects, and it becomes more possible to actually use missiles (and/or fighters) and win. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

Yeah, I think that makes sense. PD ships are nice, but perhaps a single one shouldn't be allowed to cover an entire 9x9 fleet...

The reasoning behind the PD accuracy bonus is suposed to be that they fire at very close range, when evasive manuevers are over and the missile has begun its final trajectory, after all:)

-Cherry

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

From Fyron:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This also gets rid of the "2 shots at one stack" effect. With a range of 1 or 2 it will be rare for a stack to finish a turn close enough to allow a shot on two consecutive turns.

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

You can also mod the fighters to fire their own seekers (Andres has done this in the Star Wars mod and it works, oh how it works). We've talked about this in some other thread and came to the conclusion that this tactic can overload PDCs very quickly.

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Huh, I always thought it was more of a shotgun effect - the gun fires a bunch of little projectiles and SOME of them are bound to hit! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Attention SEIV Modders and Know it All\'s- Request
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It depends, I suppose. That's not the way the U.S. Navy's PD cannons work, but then, I'm not sure if anyone knows whether they're the slightest bit effective http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif