Folding @ Home
 

This post is a blatant attempt to recruit some new folders.

Folding at home is a distributed computing project that helps with the fight against cancer and many other diseases by folding protiens. The Folding at home client can be downloaded from http://www.stanford.edu/group/pandeg.../download.html

Three weeks ago some of my pals over at Sharkys Forums started a little Folding @ Home team. We started out in 34149th place. In three weeks we have climbed into 757th place and are shooting for 500th place by the end of the month. We are the fastest climbing team out of all F@H teams! We need your help! If you want to help us, or you just want to help fight cancer, we need your CPU.

Those of you who would like to join the quest can do so with ease. Just DL the client and install it. Enter a user name and use 34149 for the team name. When you turn in your first unit, you’ll be added to the Sharkys team. The team stats can be viewed at http://folding.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/teampage?q=34149


The Thermolian data systems are doing well. How would your systems stack up? Come on over and have a little fun for a good cause.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

huh? what?

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I'm reading things right, it's a matter of simulating protiens. Even the simplest life form on earth is extremely complex on a molecular level; for the cancer research, they need to simulate zillions of different protiens. To do that, they need computer power, and lots of it. If you download the client, it will chat with the research computer, get a piece of the puzzle to simulate, and use your spare processor cycles to simulate it. Specifically, they are simulating a particular portion of protienes' life: the folding process, where the protiene takes on it's shape.

SETI does something similar for analyzing interstellar signals. The folding group has wrapped a competition around it to try and garner more PC power.

If you have a permanent net connection with no limitations on badwidth useage, it's not a bad idea.

As it's usually a good idea to list the potential risks involved along with the potential benifits, so here's one: Trust issue: you are deliberatly installing a piece of software on your machine designed to give others remote access to your processor, run by people you haven't met, designed by programmers who you've never met, with the source code for the client unavailable for your review. You have to trust that they won't deliberatly harm your machine, and that there aren't any problems with the program which would allow others to sneak in and do stuff to your machine.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Well… that counts me out!!!
as I’m on a 56K modem.
Good luck!!! on the protiens,SETI,and asteroids.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

You don't have to be connected all the time. It will download a data pack, process it and sent it when you go onlien the next time.
Regarding trust: How many programs do run on your PC? All of them use your CPU and most of them don't offer you the source code and yet you run them. The risk that such a large project will to something terrible with your PC is rather low IMHO.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Correct, you DL stuff all the time. This program just automates the DL for you. And if you want, you can set it for a manual up/down link. 56K would not be a big problem; the units are not that large. And unless you have a real power box, there will only be a few downloads a week. It takes a lot of CPU cycles to do a unit.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

not for long. current top proccessor speed; may have changed: 3.2 GHz. computer speed's double about every 18 months, Last i heard. so, assume no increase between now and the beginning of 2004 and use that for a baseline:
2004 : 3.2
2005.5 : 6.4
2007 : 12.8
2008.5 : 25.16
2010 : 50.32
2011.5 : 100.64
2013 : 201.28

so, in 9 years, computer speeds will be 62.9 what they are now. in another 2 years...
2014.5 : 402.56
2016 : 805.12

* 251.6

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Actually... the rate of increase will slow down tremendously. Current processor architecture (the most powerful) is beginning to reach harder limiting factors of circuitry, namely interference from the electromagnetic fields accross the extremely small size of the transistors. The heat generated has always been a factor, as it is the other major limiting factor. But, heat has been easier to deal with than the electromagnetic field interference that comes into play once you get to really small transistor sizes. We will probably see another generation or two out of current CPU design, but after that, something new will have to be invented. That, or use more and more CPUs in a comptuter...

Re: Folding @ Home
 

or metals that have less resistance, so need less electricity, so less electromagnetism. people are inventive. although it may be time for the next thing in this area. new science instead of new technology. fiber-optics, maybe.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Actually... you need variable resistances. You need high resitance for some parts, low for others, but mostly semi-conductors that you can change their resistance. Otherwise, you can't build the necessary circuits. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Newer CPUs do not have less resistance or anything, they just make the parts smaller, so they can cram more on to the CPU board. The problem is, the smaller you make it, more of a problem the electric fields generated by the parts get.

Fiber optics might be one area where they could drastically change CPU architecture. Or those organic computers some people are trying to make...

[ November 08, 2003, 20:10: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

organic computers? somehow, that doesn't sound good.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Apparently the industry consensus is that Moore's law will hold true for at least another decade.

Less is Moore

I like this quote:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Moore’s Law is already in some jeopardy. Intel has run into leakage problems with the new P4 chip “Prescott”. The transistors are so numerous and packed so tightly in the stretched silicon that they leak more current than the chip actually uses. Over 110 watts for the first production yield. These have been written off and the design team has gone back to work on reducing the leakage. An ominous sign is that Intel has begun to talk publicly about SOI metal hybrid chips for the desktop. These would solve the 90nano leakage problems, but add a very high premium to the price of a CPU. In the past, this technology was seen as only being economical for MilTech applications. For Moore’s Law to continue there will need to be a move away from silicon. Carbon seems to be the front runner at this time.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Nothing like a nice hot Laptop to warm your hands on a cold fall morning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Thermo,

Currently giving spare cycles to SETI@home project. I have almost 25K WU's! (Used to see you there - you zoomed by my stats then dissapeared about a year ago from submitting new WU's).

Can you tell me why I should switch? Not looking to start anything - just looking to see if this one is better.

In fact, I think that any machine that has any idle time at all (while it's powered on) should run some kind of "public service" process. It doesn't cost the CPU owner anything (in the vast majority of cases) and helps out good causes...

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, the risk is actually pretty low - most programmers produce code that is extremely difficult to exploit, and most organizations don't do stuff to your machine that you aren't willing to deal with. And then there is Microsoft, Gator, and numerous others. Yeah, it's a pretty low-risk, but the risk is there.

Oh, and at the moment? I've got about 34 running processes.

[ November 11, 2003, 07:12: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">With something like Folding@home, I'd say that the risk is less that they'd try to do something nasty on purpose, than with any bugs in their program that they'd inadvertently missed, particularly since it's the kind of program that's built to automatically send chunks of data back and forth across the internet without user intervention.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey rdouglass, it’s been a while since I was chasing you down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I set a goal of 10K units in seti and when I got there I quit. Well, I ran over a little. Actually, it was too easy and I got bored. Folding is a little harder, but not a lot. Four weeks has gotten me into the top 4% using the same systems I was using on seti.

As to why I started folding, it was because of the other people on the team. I net/know most of them and it was kind of sporty at first. No challengers of late. As to why you should join, there is no good reason. Both projects are raw science and distributed computing is more or less the same everywhere. One thing you won’t see with folding is the problems, cheats, and other BS. If you did join up, then perhaps you could give me a run for my money http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Better hurry, FX51 goes on line this weekend.

[ November 13, 2003, 18:07: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Hmmm...I have a Dual 3.06 GHz Xeon server on order that isn't due to go Online until Feb.

I wonder how many folding units I can do in 2 mos. with that. I might try it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Cool, Bring it on over, you'll enjoy the crowd.

I just fired up a new FX 51 Hammer. So far it's sweet, and a 3DMarking monster.

http://Groups.msn.com/ThermodynesPlace/fx51244ghz.msnw

Re: Folding @ Home
 

I just joined your team, as anonymous though. P4 1.8 ghz. Im going to try and overclock it again to around 2.0 soon.
You have nine processors? What are you running? A whole friggin farm of computers?

[ December 01, 2003, 19:06: Message edited by: Instar ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A few nice workstations and a bunch of second hand servers.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Work units vary a lot from one to the next. But you are doing them in about 13 hours on average, which ain't bad by any measure.


DL 3DMark 2001 and SiSoft Sandra if you want to run bench marks on it. They are both free to use for the limited Versions. It should put up some real good numbers.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

According to my stats, that new box (Dual Pent Xeon 3.06 GHz) did 13 WU's with 809 score in 1 week.

How does that stack up? Don't really know what the 'benchmark' is and I'd be interested to know how that box performs on something like that....

Re: Folding @ Home
 

That's kinda' cool! Been doing it for a little less than a month now and they're (the Folding WU's) a lot more processor intensive than SETI@home by far.

Been crunching them on a Dual Xeon 3.06 GHz box and all I have is 38 WUs! It's kinda' funny how those new Xeons show up as 2 processors each. I have 4 copies running on the box and only 2 processors.

However, the fun is almost done... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Gotta' prep the box for SQL Server production right after Christmas - I'll probably run it on another box or two but not near the results as the Xeons. Maybe some others want to join as well. The team is almost in the Top 100!!!!

[ December 16, 2003, 16:11: Message edited by: rdouglass ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

I may be way out of my league, but here goes anyway. I remember reading not so long ago that research is being done on what I believe was referred to as "stackable" chip technology. While it was acknowledged that there is presently a thermal problem, it does appear to have potential benefits in use of available space, length of wires, etc.

Besides, even if the thermal problem isn't solved, laptops with the new chips might find an alternative market as hot-seats for northern deer hunters.


P.S. You guys are making me want to run out and upgrade my computer, never mind that don't I actually have use for that kind of processing power. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ December 16, 2003, 17:48: Message edited by: Cipher7071 ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's got me--the call of the Never-Ending Upgrade! 3.0 gigahertz! Wait, no, 5.0 gigahertz! Arrgh, 8.8 terahertz! Oh, look, a quantum computer! Gotta have it! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Yes, there is some research into stacking chips on die. But with the heat issue continuing to plague the 90 nanometer chips, stacking is a ways off yet. Early 90nano chips are reported to leak more than 50% of the power that they consume. Tandem chips on die is closer, but that is a side by side arrangement. With x86, quad chips on board is about the performance/price limit. But for some applications, 8 chip systems serve well. Another arrangement is blades, where “systems on a card” are stacked in a high speed buss arrangement. The larges one of these that I have personally seen had 24 blades/CPU’s.

For folding or crunching seti, stacks are some times used. They are striped down systems that are served by a complete system w/hard drive. The rest of the stack is just main Boards, CPU and ram with a NIC. By eliminating the additional hard drives and cases, a low cost high performance system can be built. If all goes well and I can get a grip on Linux, I’ll have a 17.4GHz stack running by new years. The cost will be about $83 a GHz. Output should be 8 times what I get from my FX51 which cost way more than the whole stack will.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Congrats to Rdouglass on breaking 2500. It’s a little harder than SETI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


IF any of you have some spare CPU time, we could sure use your help. Check us out http://folding.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/teampage?q=34149
We will break into the top 100 teams some time tomorrow morning, and we are in the top 25 teams based on production. Also, we are two months old today! No team has climbed as fan and as fast as we have. But we are way down the list as far as membership goes. We could sure use any help that you guys can offer. And remember, it is for a good cause.

[ December 17, 2003, 00:02: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Well, the team made the top 100 today, out of 34000+ teams. And nine weeks ago it was only an idea some guys at Sharky's had. Sure wish some more of you would come over and help out.

http://folding.extremeoverclocking.c...?&pagenumber=1

[ December 18, 2003, 21:04: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

I suppose I should have posted sooner, but I'm on as Ste.
As of 22:52 GMT, 18-12-2003 I have done 12 WU and am 91% through my latest work unit (2275/2500)
I recieved the WU on 15:08:45 PST, 15-12-2003

I've got an AMD Athlon XP 2000+ which Windows XP clocks at 1.66Ghz. and 512MB of RAM.

It isnt fast but it's stays switched on all day. The real question is, dare I leave it switched on over the Christmass break...

Re: Folding @ Home
 

shouldn't we be the SPACE EMPIRES forum? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

i mean, what's this sharky forum anyway? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Folding @ Home
 

hey, i got a 1.47GHz http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

and 83/400, whatever that means.

[ December 20, 2003, 07:24: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It’s a PC review site and the Forum is a PC forum. It’s a place to ask questions about your PC and get good answers. It’s a place where you can learn how to maximize the performance of what you already have, or find out what is the best buy for your next system. It has a game section too, so it could be a place to spread the word about SE.

Most of all, it is a bunch of real friendly people. Word of warning, leave the attitudes and off topic here, it will get you kicked over there.

Folding as Space Empires or Shrapnel would be cool, but I doubt we have the Hertz around here to make a run at the top 25.

[ December 19, 2003, 12:21: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It means that you are about 1/5 done. Check the log and see how long it takes per %.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

about 7 minutes a frame.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a fairly good fold rate.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

I downloaded and joined the party this morning. The software has been running for 6 hours now and I have generated 152/250 So I should have my first packet completed today.

according to the log file I'm saving a section every 6 mins or so. Not bad I guess for my AMD Athlon XP 1700+ (1.467 ghz)

I was wondering, would the program run much faster if I had no other programs running? (like internet explorer.) Also would it run faster if I went offline?

Just a few questions for you experts.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ December 24, 2003, 18:11: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

Re: Folding @ Home
 

BTW: I noticed the program had the ability to insert a custom banner, so I created a "Sharky Forums Folding Team" banner.

If anyone would like it, just let me know.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Wow, my first WU has just been completed, but I still don't see my name in the list of members on the Sharky Forum folding team. The Last name on the list is kirk with 1 WU delivered.

I guess there is a bit of a delay before things register on the stat screens. Oh well, I'll check tomorrow.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On an AMD rig you need to check and see if your chip has the SSE instruction set. If it does, use the 3.25 beta client. Set it up and then creat a shortcut put the shortcut in your start up folder and add the following to the instruction line, -advmethods -forceasm There is a sticky thread with pictures at Sharkys.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ask Sappison if he would like to use some of your work fot the team http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm sure he will.

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It can take three to six hours sometimes for the first one. Oh...and welcome to the team http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Strange thing about Folding@home..

The first WU I did was xxx/250 and I got 18 points for it's delivery.

My second WU was xxx/500 and I'm now at 50 points. (So I guess it means that I only got 32 points for the second WU.)

The first one took me some 11 hours to complete, the second just shy of 26 hours( spread out over over two days). I would have thought that I would have got at least (18x2=36) points for my second WU. It would have made more sense. As is, I have no idea how the point system is generated.

BTW, Why is there no Folding@Home thread at sharky's to discuss this?

nuf said, Cheers!

Re: Folding @ Home
 

Points for work unit by ID
http://folding.stanford.edu/psummary.html

It has been talked about in the main thread. It comes down to which flavor of unit you get. Placing the -advmethods argument in the shortcut command line will keep the long units away (most of the time}

Re: Folding @ Home
 

If you mean the "credits" column in that chart, it shows 18 for my first WU and 47 for my second and 47 for the one I'm currently running.

Either the point/credit system has 'modifiers' like how many days it takes for you to complete it then it would seem that it's a bit skewered.

Oh well, no big deal, I'll just accept whaterve points I get.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Folding @ Home
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Correct on both counts.