Torpedo question
 

Does anyone actually use torpedoes? They just don't seem that good to me compared to other weapons of similar tech level.

Could anyone that uses them tell me some good reasons? Am I missing something obivious?

Re: Torpedo question
 

Torpedos are very underpowered. You are better off with normal beam (ROF 1) weapons.

Re: Torpedo question
 

Thanks. That's what I was thinking. I don't think it's any better than a UC I, and that's a weapon that you start with. I always liked using torpedo weapons, but I can't find a single reason to use these.

Anybody out here use them?

Re: Torpedo question
 

Do not underestimate the power of torpedos in a PBW game. A skilled player with proper racial points set up and bonues can make Torpedo weapons heavy ships a leathal forces.

Re: Torpedo question
 

and how exactly astrocities? as far as I can see you are right, but if this skilled player would then exchange his torpedoes for another direct fire weapon he would be even more dangerous.

Re: Torpedo question
 

Ok, I will give you the best example I can.

For this example I will not use Aggressive or Defensive bonuses as the race that proved the worth of Torpedo ships to me did not use these bonues.

The Ships

Using Max Mounts

Ship 1

Battle Cruiser
1 Master Computer III
6 Quantum III engines
1 Phased Shielding V
1 Multi-Tracker IV
1 Combat Sensor III
1 EMC III
2 PDC's V
3 Quantum Torpedos V
1 Stealth Armor
1 Scattering Armor
1 Emissive Armor III
2 Solor Collector III's
1 Neural Combat net
1 Solar Sail III
2 Shield Regenerator V

Second Ship

Battleship
1 Master Computer III
5 Quantum Engines III
1 Solor Sail III
1 Stealth Armor
1 Scattering Armor
1 Neural Combat net
2 Phased Shielding V
3 Shield Regenerator V
1 Multi-Tracker IV
1 Combat Sensor III
1 EMC III
1 PDC's V
1 Quantum Reactor
1 Self Destruct Device
2 Shield Depleter V
5 Anti-Proton Beam XII

You create a fleet of say 75 of ship one, and 25 of ship 2 then train one or all of them at a training facility to 20%

In the mean time you build the standard PPB ships that we normally see in a game. Same class, including some of the same weapons, except PPB's instead of Torpedos and Anti-Protons Beams.

Create a fleet with say 100 battle cruisers and 50 Battleships.

Train them all to 20% as well.

Then in a PBW game have them battle.

The Torpedo ships will lose my be 25% of their ships, but there will not be one PPB ship left.

I have play tested this and was surprised. Simulators do not accurately show how a ship will do in combat. For some reason, and I am not an AI or Code person, SEIV give first shot or something to the ships that have Torpedos. Why I don't know.

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is this true ?

In the Sweet Victory by summertime game on PBW my empire (psychic and religious) fought 5 or 6 huge battles with Preacherman (organic). We wondered why I (almost) always got first shot, even when attacking through a wormhole. My fleets included some torpedo ships, while I think he only used organic weapons. IIRC the only time he got first shot was when I jumped through a wormhole into an all missile fleet.

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Even without a possible “torpedo fires first” bug/feature:

In late game, when (if?) battles become really large with 2-300 ships on each side, the front row of ships seldom have the opportunity to fire more than once. Using a weapon with long reload time is not a problem here, so taking the biggest gun you got is usually wise. Unfortunately for torpedos, many racials + the WMG does the job even better.

Another tip for those huge battles: Make sure your ships is moving forward, or you will have a big ol’ traffic jam and it will end up as a turkey shoot (with you as the turkey). Give orders of point blank, target nearest first and always include some weapon that fires every turn.

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is this true? Torpedos always fire first.

Re: Torpedo question
 

I know of reports by players who have lost huge fleets packing WMG to fleets of Torpedo ships. I wonder if formation has a lot to do with it as well?

One player has his aggressiveness and defensiveness set to 120 and his fleet trained to 20% with EMC III, Combat Sensors III, and MutiTrack III, on each of his PPB ships and still he lost his fleet to a small Torpedo based fleet. LOL. The torp player had average settings for aggressiveness and defensiveness. I wonder if the bonuses work in reverse or something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I know that I have questioned this for a long time now. Set my mineral to 125% and throught my game all I have problems with are mining minerals.

Also movement and range weapons combined with sheild depleters play a huge role. Add in regnerators and you can bet top dollar that the fleet with the best ship design will win everytime.

[ November 10, 2003, 10:23: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Torpedo question
 

Even though the Torpedos seem weak on paper if the Ships get the first strike they are a MASSIVE advantage?

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, this definitely needs more testing. I'll try to do some this evening (unless RL pays a visit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

[ November 10, 2003, 11:27: Message edited by: primitive ]

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is this true? Torpedos always fire first. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No.

Re: Torpedo question
 

You guys are obviously missing the TRUE advantage of Torpedo weapons.

They make GREAT WEAPONS PLATFORMS. Why? Because they're CHEAP!

When you can't hit an enemy ship at long distance, due to bonuses, you can use a level 2 or 3 torpedo, and score hits! They take LOTS of space, but they're super cheap, so you can build 3 Massive Platforms at a time, which creates tons of KT of targets on the planet. KT that ultimately absorbs incoming fire!

For this to work really well, your platforms should be complemented with a weapon that will fire more rapidly than Torp.

--Ed

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is this true? Torpedos always fire first. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Who then fires first in combat? Does the fleet with the best weapons fire first? What dictates who fires first in PBW combat?

Re: Torpedo question
 

Whoever moves into range first gets to fire first. With same ranged weapons (such as APB VII or so and whatever level of Torpedo hits range 8 (max range of all non-missile weapons)), it is the faster ships. With same speed and range, it is a crap shoot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I kinda figured it was a range weapon first issue. It makes sense.

Then why don't aggressiveness and defensiveness bonues play into this? If the Torp fleet race has no bonues, and the PPB fleet race has 120% for both and each fleet has EMC, Multi, Combat sensors, and are equally trianed at 20% then why does it always win? Just comes down to range?

Forgive me for saying this, but that couldn't be right, for if it was, then those bonuses mean jack, just design a ship with greater range than your opponent early on and sit back and watch his fleet burn in space.

Re: Torpedo question
 

you guys are crazy, hanging in the SEIV forum the whole day http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif but these are very nice discussions.
just a Q astrocities, didnt you mention somewhere else that the torpedo ships in your Version of SEIV fire every turn and that you cannot find the bug that causes this? this would explain why the torpedoships always win in your battles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I am still a newbie, and thats most probably the reason why I stick to PPB, however, in a game with finite ressources torpedos might be worth it, because of the reduced building/maintenace cost.

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, we have no life http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course, if you are building weapon platforms, you have already lost. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually being faster isn't a guarantee of firing first. It does increase your chances, but depending on the difference in speed and the range at the begining of combat it is possible for the slower ship, even a ship with shorter range weapons to get off the first shot. Although, the greater the differance in speed and weapons range the less likely this is to happen.

Geoschmo

Re: Torpedo question
 

I just had a discussion about this with a friend of mine, and we both believe that torpedos are stronger than PPB (as long as there are no shields to be counted in) because they deal the same damage as the PPB deals in two rounds at once. this means they will be faster in destroying components, and therefor will be faster in destroying enemy weapons. even their increased size doesnt really metter. but the main problem we see is:

if you play low tech lvl with high tech cost a lvl 5 PPB will cost 525 000 tech points (including physics 1+2) to be ressearched, a lvl 5 quantum torpedo costs 1 975 000 tech points (including military science lvl 1). now this is a HUGE differens, which makes PPBs far better even without the effect that they ignore normal shields!

Re: Torpedo question
 

But do any of you guys actually use torpedoes?

Maerlyn - that's what I've noticed and I've only been playing the game a short time. You invest in an applied science (I forget which) for 50K, them you have to research Torpedo Lv I, for a total cost of 55K. But if you just research Lv II cannons, it costs like 5k and you have a weapon that fires the same range, every turn for nearly the same damage (I believe. Still a novice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )Weapon to weapon, tech level equal, I can't seem to find any situation yet where I want or need torepoes over anything else. Kinda depressing really, they seem kinda useless.

Atrocites - I read your example below, but do you ever outfit ships with them?

I've obiviously only been playing this game a short time, and it is by far one of the best TBS games I've played. I've got a lot to learn yet.

Sorry, but what does PPB stand for?

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah, you are right about this. I am playing thuis game for a very short time too, but it is the best TBS game I know so far. (even better than Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri, and this was a very good game already)

PPB means Phased Polaron Beam. A direct fire weapon which skips shields and is available after you've researched physics 2. It is the most popular weapon as far as I know.

Re: Torpedo question
 

The biggest problem is weapon scale mounts that were introduced in SE4. There were no mounts in SE3. Components just took one hit to be destroyed, and weapons did damages on scales of 3, 5, or occasionally 10. All of this was basically multiplied by 10 in the conVersion to SE4, with some tweaking and some new weapons. BUT, SE3 torpedos had nice to hit bonuses. SE4 torpedos do not. Also, a big advantage of SE3 torpedos was that they could penetrate stuff like emmissive armor (and crystalline in SE4) better because they did more damage per shot. But, with the massive scale mount bonuses in SE4, this advantage is gone, because even a lowly DUC V can penetrate emmissive armor easily (and CA on smaller-medium ships) with a large or heavy mount.

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Far out. Nobody has addressed this issue in SEIV? Odd, if so. The game has been out for a while and I would have thought someone would have tried to balance the torpedo.

Re: Torpedo question
 

Not everyone agrees that it is not balanced... and there is no consensus on how to balance it, so it remains. I think there was one change to it in the early days of SE4 though (a patch). There was also one to beef up PPBs, cause apparently they were too weak before. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Haven't played unmodded in a while, Fryon?

Torps max out at range 6, as do several other DF weapons in the unmodded game (some also max at 5).

PvK

Re: Torpedo question
 

Too much silly speculation floating around - some people need to run some solid tests to see if torps are doing anything weird.

There are plenty of mods which change torpedo stats. I know beefed them up quite a bit in Proportions mod.

First strike is one way for torps to have an advantage. There are several other risk factors that can tip the scales of a battle. If the ships start out in range of each other, then first shot is determined by who was stationary rather than moving to enter the combat, or failing that, a coin flip (in Gold; pre-Gold, it was by player number...).

Just in general though, doing more damage in the first exchange can sometimes tip the scales, because a hit on ECM or Sensors can effectively take a ship out of action, etc.

Another way is to give your ships "Max Firing Range" strategy, and then to give them only weapons with the same reload time, which is greater than 1. The result is that the ships will fire and then move away for a turn or two, which can result in avoiding getting hit by the enemy, or in partly damaged ships escaping destruction, or getting enemies with "target most damaged" to try to fire at them at excessive range (thus, missing, while full-strength ships are closer). If this succeeds (no guarantee, with the dodgy tac AI), then the torp ships may succeed in firing (or, firing and hitting) as often as their opponents do.

Against enemies with range-8 weapons especially (usually APB), range-6 weapons can also have an advantage if both sides have full-strength ECM and defensive-bonus armor, because it will be hard for either to hit at range-8, and +20% easier at range 6. Because SE4 to-hit is based on simplistic addition rather than multiplication (like real-universe probability), this can be much more than a 20% advantage, since if the chance to-hit is say, 20% at range 8, at range 6, the chance would be 40%, or twice as likely.

PvK

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Haven't played unmodded in a while, Fryon?

Torps max out at range 6, as do several other DF weapons in the unmodded game (some also max at 5).

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well that just makes APBs even more powerful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem with that is that in most battles, there are a lot of ships, and the range 8 weapons just allow ships in the back to fire, while the bulk of the ships are still up at close ranges (unless you use max range for some odd reason). Optimal range usually makes your ships move in close to fire anyways (especially with high enemy ECM values). They will fire and move away if they start close. Or just sit there if they are crowded by huge fleets. Those ships in the back don't hit often, but they hit more often than the enemey's rear ships that can't even attempt to fire. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Fleet stacking is not to be underestimated.

[ November 11, 2003, 01:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Torpedo question
 

Your points about thickly-stacked masses of ships, and second and third ranks being able to fire, are good ones. It depends on the numbers of ships involved, fire tactics used, actual ship positions, speeds, and to-hit mods on both sides. However I have seen end-game battles and simulator situations where range-six weapons would do better than range-eight weapons, at least if the range-eight weapons were on Max Weapon Range strategy. It was pretty clear in the replays this was because they were missing much more at range 7-8 than their opponents were at range 6. If the range-8's are on Point Blank, Short, or maybe even Optimal, though, and Target Nearest, then they shouldn't be firing at 7-8 when they could fire at 6. However, unless you have a skill disadvantage, often the Max Weapon Range strat will beat the more agressive strats, although again it depends on a lot of other factors.

PvK

Re: Torpedo question
 

That is why you don't use max range unless you are using missiles, have a huge tech advantage over the enemy, have talismans, or are a masochist. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Optimal usually works well for me.

Re: Torpedo question
 

Couple of other questions, I'll post them here to avoid starting another thread --

At what treaty can your treaty partners pass by your minefields and satellites?

Does a low level APB have any advantage over a DUC III? I noticed one race switched from using DUC IIIs to APB I. Seems like a step back.

Had another question but forgot what it was.... rats.

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any treaty of Non Agression or above will allow your partners to bypass your minefields and satellites.

Re: Torpedo question
 

Thanks.

I'm afraid if I sign this treaty, they'll come in and colonize my systems and I won't be able to stop them.

Re: Torpedo question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, that's the major downfall of any treaty. Just a hint: if you aren't in a horribly bad position with the AI you want to make a treaty with, then wait until you have all your core systems' planets colonized. Then the Ai can send colony ships all it wants and get nowhere.

Now, if you're in a tight spot, you might not want to do that. Grab any chance to make a treaty.

Renegade

Re: Torpedo question
 

Fyron, in a correct way of development, ive found out that max range works REALY WELL well untill the late late stages of the game, and then correct design turn max range ships into a very annoying subject.

Re: Torpedo question
 

Well that is not very helpful unless you post specifics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ November 12, 2003, 05:11: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Torpedo question
 

I think we have just torpedoed a few top players game strategies. Now that the secret of Torpedo ships and range weapons is out in the open, time for some new tactics boys.

Re: Torpedo question
 

Not for me. This is old news, having been discussed at least 5000 times already on Shrapnel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It is not much of a secret, and ONLY if the APB ships are on max range. Otherwise, it is a mute point.

[ November 12, 2003, 05:45: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Torpedo question
 

This of course requires testing. Preferrably field testing. thats why i have my Conceptual Empires game idea for.

[ November 12, 2003, 08:19: Message edited by: Taera ]

Re: Torpedo question
 

So boys and, well boys, the moral of this thread is to use Torpedo tactics, you need to max them out, arm your ships with Heavy mounts, long range APB, and set your fleet strategy to Maximum Range.

Then build tons of ships and go anhiliate your enemies.

Draw backs are now that we know its a lagit tactic, we will be ready for it. So bring it one baby.

Re: Torpedo question
 

No... to use torpedo tactics, your enemy needs to do that. If you do that, you are not using torpedo tactics, you are using some APB tactics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Torpedo question
 

Don't include the APB's on torpedo ships if you want to use the Max Range shoot & retreat tactic I described. Otherwise, your ships will stick around to fire their APB's every turn, and will tend to get out-gunned by the enemy APB ships. You might mix in some ships with only fire-every-turn weapons, though, especially so you can have some shield depleters in action - shield depleters will be needed once the enemy has phased shields.

Oh, and as for Phased Polaron Beams - I often only bother to use level II, because they have the same range, nearly as good damage, and cost a lot less than the highest-level PPB's. They are more efficient in terms of damage per resources used, for a long time (until the price of the rest of your ship gets to be so much that it makes sense to max the weapons, but by that time, your enemies may have phased shields, so you probably want to switch to some other weapon combined with shield depleters).

PvK

Re: Torpedo question
 

Hmmm... so if I get what you're saying, weapons with a low rate of fire and long range (like missiles and advanced torpedoes) are really sort of like a damper field that blocks half, two thirds, or three quarters (depending on if you're using fire rate 2, 3, or 4 weapons) of damage, because you only get shot at by the rate-1 weapons when you move into range...

Of course that wouldn't work when the enemy has faster engines, but then for assaults against satellites, bases, and planets... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Torpedo question
 

It also does not work very well when the enemy goes the same speed as you either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Torpedo question
 

I'm so lost from the preceeding conversation it's not even funny. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Wow. What a noob.

Re: Torpedo question
 

DeadDireWolf is it the abbreviations used or everything said here in general. Ask any questions and you will have several replies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 12, 2003, 20:02: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Torpedo question
 

I got the abbreviations, I believe.

The talk about torpedo tactics, max range, anti proton beam tactics have me confused. Do you guys let the computer handle the battles? That's the impression that I get.

"So boys and, well boys, the moral of this thread is to use Torpedo tactics, you need to max them out, arm your ships with Heavy mounts, long range APB, and set your fleet strategy to Maximum Range.

Draw backs are now that we know its a lagit tactic, we will be ready for it."

I don't get it. Nobody thought of this earlier? I thought PvK said you need to ditch the APM or your ships will stick around and get out gunned. But this only applies if you have the computer fight the battle with the orders you've issued, right? I'm not sure because I've not had a battle large enough that I didn't fight it myself.

and just what the heck does this mean?

"Hmmm... so if I get what you're saying, weapons with a low rate of fire and long range (like missiles and advanced torpedoes) are really sort of like a damper field that blocks half, two thirds, or three quarters (depending on if you're using fire rate 2, 3, or 4 weapons) of damage, because you only get shot at by the rate-1 weapons when you move into range..."

????

Thanks. Enjoying the game. Now trying to learn more.

Re: Torpedo question
 

Re: Speed of ships. Same or greater speed is in fact an issue when your talking about 1v1, 2v2 or even 5v5. but when ship counts go to, say, 20v20 the damage spread is extremly significant. For those ships, however, you will need a very smart fleet formation. For heavy-hitters-out-ranged the best ive found, as ive stated several times, is the turbine formation. if your going head on, unless the enemy has realy smart strategies the damage will be very evenly spread amongst the ships, and with regen/crystal/shield regen/strong shields some of your ships might come unscathed and others lightly damaged. At the same time, their ships moving into your range to hit the ship that withdrew would put themselves into a crossfire of the whole fleet. Boom.

Just a note, torpedo ships beat PPB&NSP ships. tested.