[OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

Kids these days are dumb and start their fights out with shoving matches, like some lame kind of foreplay to violence.

If a man is shoved, and responds by immediately punching his 'assailant' in the nose/face/jaw, could it be called a sucker-punch?

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

The shoving before a fight is not new. What a sudden unexpected punch is called is a matter of vocabulary. Most boys would consider it "unfair". Trust me. I would do it. You shove I punch.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

A man has gotta do what a man has gotta do. Nuff said.

And where your asked why you did it later, answer simply by saying; "It seemed like a good idea at the time." And leave it to the lawyers and court to settle.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

If it's not worth fighting over, just walk away. If it is worth fighting over, you should have already hit him.

The best punch is the first one.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, if you're confident you can land his rear end in the mud, so perhaps he'll be too embarrassed to come back, or so mad that if he does, you can predict his attack and again settle his hash.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, if you're confident you can land his rear end in the mud, so perhaps he'll be too embarrassed to come back, or so mad that if he does, you can predict his attack and again settle his hash.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually if your going to punch somone because he might punch you why even take the chance that he might be armed. The more prudent action would be to carry a concealed weapon and shoot the bastard.

[ November 18, 2003, 21:04: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

What do you mean "sucker punch"? Is a "sucker punch" a good thing?

You shove me, I'll put three bullets in your chest and two in your face. Unless I'm not carrying a concealed pistol in which case I'll "sterilize" you and crush your throat (or rip it out with my teeth) and you can consider yourself lucky. :-)

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

hhhhokay...
gunplay...
yeah.

Look, I don't know how other people feel about that sort of thing, but I'm not using a gun unless I actually feel my life is threatened. Fights aren't life threatening, in fact they build character that I see lacking in a lot of today's young men.

".. a generation of men raised by women..."

I've been in my share of fracked-up situations. I've lost my share of blood and bragging rights. And I don't think pulling something metal out of your pocket is the best solution to the physical threat presented by one dumb punk putting his palms agaisnt your shoulders.

[ November 19, 2003, 13:02: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

Is there any good reason to shove back? You KNOW this only would mean the other would start punching, so why not punch first? Shooting back after you have been shot dead is not a very realistic option... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

Guys, I guess I was thinking of High School when I read the question. I imagine it does happen with men over 20 but not among those who actualy want to avoid it. The best defence is to not be where you are likely to get into that situation.

In my High School I didn't have the choise. I was the new kid in town and had to be "tested". I saw it coming as I ws getting off the bus.
He shoved
I dropped my books
Drove my fingers into his solar plexes
Threw my right leg behind his
Shoved back
Picked up my books and walked off,
(shaking in my sneakers)
The next day I climbmed the ropes to the top of the gym cealings... hand over hand, (no feet). No one ever bothered me again.
It was a Darwin thing. Ya know?
That was then, this is now, (age 49). I win by not being where I am going to get into those situations.
So using steal? Don't need it in my life and I don't know how I would react if I was inadvertantly in that situation today.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

If somebody shoved me, I would not shove back. I would try to walk away without starting a fight.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know a few bars in the north end of town that prove this wrong.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know a few bars in the north end of town that prove this wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We have those places around here as well. I suppose they're everywhere.

But they don't shove there. It's on or it's not.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

Seems like the thread has drifted away from inappropriate behavior. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Of course, the "PC" and legal thing to do is to refuse to fight or shove back unless entirely necessary, and complain like mad to the authorities (teacher if in school, police if in adult public). Shoving is technically assault(tm) in the USA, and can carry some excessive penalties.

PvK

[ November 19, 2003, 01:45: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

In my younger days I went Bar-hopping in many of the wrong places...

Of the three fights I had as an adult, in the first two I tried to reason with those idiots - and had to fight anyway.
The third and Last fight was the shortest... He grabbed and threathened me, and I reached in my pocket and used the Pepper Spray on him.
Nice thing about pepper spray is it is non-lethal but usually a fight stopper. My post-fight recovery time was also MUCH shorter... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

are we talking about school kids here, or drunken bar brawls? I will grant you that fighting has become less socially acceptable in recent generations, and kids these days are tending to be rather prissy in many respects (devolution at work, but lets not get started on that.)

But seriously, most people are going to posture before they fight. wither that means talking loudly, looking mean, or pushing, its all the same. People dont really WANT to fight, they just want the other guy to back down. There is an interesting website called "killology.com" that presents some well researched articles about soldiers' historical adVersion to killing each other, and how modern first world training techniques "fix" that problem.

Any way, most people dont know how to fight - and most people dont want to REALLY fight. and if were still talking about school kids, most of them dont get hurt in a fight. sure, they might be sore for a day or so afterwords, but odds are it will end up with the guys hitting each other untill they get tired.

most of the one hit knockdown stuff only happens on TV, so people have some very distorted ideas about what will happen when they get in a fight. its not like school kids are usually going to be gouging eyes and ****. But if they did, as with most things, it comes down to a matter of willpower. If you're willing to break bones and the other guy isnt, you'll win.

im not into all that antler-locking mating ritual bull**** and i dont have alot of patience for folks that like to posture. but im not going to be all macho for the folks on this forum by describing how to break someones patella. suffice to say, people would be better off we could all express our differences in a healthy way, because although I may not have been the strapping young man Gryph was -- he IS right -- darwin offers some very compelling reasons to never back down.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

Where I live the possibility of you or the other guy carrying a concealed weapon is pretty much zero. Thankfully. It's just not something I have to consider.

Obviously there crooks out there with guns but they would most likely show the weapon straight away (give me your wallet) or, if they wanted you dead for some reason, shoot and get the hell out without spending time on posturing.

So as far as I'm concerned, if there's shoving, there's no gun.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

Probably best to read this and my prior Posts knowing I had been picked on most of my life for being "different".
So, back to the question:
I think as in "Most" things. It depends.
That was beginning of the 9th grade, and I was 14. The year was 1969. I did not have to worry about knives or guns and such.
I did have to worry about becoming bully bait. As it is I got lucky. He could have been very seriously hurt, (this I learned later). My action was probably more an impulse driven by fear than some thought out strategy.

Generally speaking:
If you are in a non mortal situation
And If You can't back out
Strke first with no warning

If you are in a situation where someone might get killed do your best to back out.
Still I consider it a Darwin thing for an adult to be able to avoid such situations. Kids in school don’t always have this option to avoid these situations. You could be bleeding on the floor before someone with sufficient authority can intervene. I use the word “sufficient” because some teachers are unable to stop or breakup a fight.

Note: I generalize and "All Generalizations are False" (including that one).

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

While I did not specifically mean a school, the environment I had in mind often reminds me of Junior High. But I'm not the one who punches a guy in the nose for shoving me.

Unrelated Storytelling Interlude

The Last time I was in a situation where the posturing had elevated to small displays of violence I was standing in the middle of a street outside a friend's house confronting a drunk shirtless teenager who was clumsily swinging around a very ornate nunchaku ("fancy pair of nunchucks?", which is better terminology?). He had been thrown out of the party, and was persisting in the loud and unacceptable behavior that had gotten him thrown out.

I had a soaked towel over my shoulders and had put something in my hair to make it slick. I had left my glasses, belt, and wallet inside, just in case. My insides were quaking, and I thought to myself again that I am a coward afflicted with a dangerous disease of stupidity and pride.

There were some real bruisers at the party, but those kids were on probation, and their friends were holding them back from fights that could get them in more trouble. No one was going to call the police, because of the neighborhood and what was going on at the party.

I had sent everyone else inside the house ("when you don't know who's in charge you are"), but he continued to direct his threats toward their faces in the windows more than me. He never came close to me, which was good for me. Standing with false certainty is easier than moving with it.

This fool's hysterics, by this time, consisted primarily of "You want some of this?" (gestures elsewhere) "You want some of this?". What do you say to that? "No, not really. But I do need you to leave." Whatever, he went away.

At that point I was pretty proud of myself. I had gone out and talked to the ego monster and had made him go away, and I had marshaled calmer minds to keep the probates from getting in trouble.

Four hours later I was pretty sure I had one the wrong thing. The bastard came back several times. He broke windows, keyed a few cars, and even tried to force his way into the house at one point, opening the door suddenly and forcefully and giving the petite host a nasty knock on the head. Turns out, though she denied having anything to do with him, his girlfriend was still at the party, and he felt he needed to talk with her. (They were together again the next day... Some people's children.) He was running now, and no one was going to go far after him in the dark.

If I had just let the bruisers kick the snot out of this troublemaker from the get go it would have prevented a lot of grief, and might have taught him a lesson. The host should have thrown him out earlier, but her 'bouncer' wasn't there that night and she doesn't seem to 'have it in herself'.

Whatever.

I have 'not enough violence' problems more often than I have 'too much violence' problems.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

Okay you're right, I wouldn't really pull steel, that's overreacting. But they teach us in Ninjitsu that someone who is shoving or taunting like that is asking to get hit, and also to give people what they want. So if he's asking so much, hit him - give him what he wants, kick the snot out of him.

I have two options if someone shoves me - most often I just step back a bit (unless there's a wall in which case I stand where I am) and stare 'em in the eye. Sometimes I'll even take a few shoves in the protected area of the chest without moving, when I see it isn't serious, just to show I'm untouchable. That usually confuses them and they leave and don't come back.

But we're supposed to recognize a real situation, which rarely begins in shoving and never in posturing. Since it's so common in streetfighting though, we learn very many techniques that begin from a shove. So if someone shoves me in the street without warning and I'm not sure how "real" it is, I'm trained to break his arm and bring him to the ground immediately. And I'd rather always err on the side of "caution" - that being the side which leaves me in best health - the other guy's big-shot lawyer be damned. I wouldn't really KILL someone over a shove or punch, but I'd be more than willing to wound his arms for him, feed him some asphalt, and maybe prevent him from breeding for a while. All in all, it's probably better for them, teaches them to be more careful.

I don't have a criminal record.

Since I started making this a practice in high school, no bullies picked on me or anyone I knew. They even looked up to me, mixed blessing as that is.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Kids these days? Kids these days have changed (depending on what you mean by "kids"). When I was a kid (age 7-12), a fight was pretty much "gentlemanly". It was usually a wrestling match and the winner pinned the shoulders of the loser to the ground and the word, uncle, was usually mentioned. After that age, fists became useful and prevalent. Bruised eyes and bloody noses were the norm all the way into high school. After a fight was over, it was usually over for good.

Kids these days? I'd hate to guess. I hear too many horror stories. And the amount of violence in TV, movies, video games, etc., coupled with the environment a lot of kids live in seems to have led to this: if you lose a fight, you plot a way to get even and USUALLY it involves some sort of escalation (if someone hit you with a stick or pole, you bring back a knife; if someone pulled a knife on you, you get hold of a gun). Fights between kids these days can result in permanent damage ranging from teeth and eyes to, well, death.

Now, to men, as you segued. First of all, I don't think a person is less of a man for walking away from a shove. Sounds like a cliche', I know.

But, to analyze it (to death, probably...pardon the pun), situations are very different. The reason for the shove is the essence. Why did it occur? A drunk? In public? At a private party? A friend? A stranger? Is talking a viable alternative?

Well, you had better have been working on all those answers before that shove occurred. When I was in the army, stationed in Asia, I studied martial arts. For the uninitiated, martial arts, in its truest form, is more of a life style than a way to fight. You learn fighting techniques but we spent much more time on awareness, control, diet, and a balance in life. I'd like to think that what I learned in 2 years is partly attributable to me avoiding situations where things turned physical. Recognizing the signs things were "turning bad" early. Yes, I have found myself in situations where I thought a confrontation was going to turn into conflict. Now, don't get me wrong...I don't fancy myself some great fighter. I haven't practiced in over 20 years. But from the day I gained some confidence in how to handle myself in a fight I also gained some insight into what it could result in. I always asked myself (at some point when things looked like they were turning for the worse) if the argument justified someone dying (because that has been my goal for quite some time now...killing anyone I get into a fight with...so I don't have to look over my shoulder day after day when the fight is over). Or dying myself. Every answer has been NO! Again, don't get me wrong...I've only found myself in situations where voices were raised to yelling levels and the usual 4-letter cuss words a major part of the vocabulary 3 or 4 times in 25 years. None of those situations made me answer YES to the question of "is this worth someone dying?". As a result, none of those situations ever got physical. I walked away, or apologized, or said I had done something wrong or SOMETHING. Oh, and in one case, at a poker table, a guy accused me of cheating and threw back his chair and stood behind me daring me to get up (while everyone else sat there and watched)...I just sat there (judging where his crotch was in relatinship to my elbow) and waited to see if he would hit a guys whose back was to him and sitting down. He called me a few more names and finally people at the table got him to sit down. Did I care if I looked to be the coward? Nope. It wasn't worth someone dying (perhaps). Another time, a few years ago, it was a (casual) friend who got drunk as hell and thought I made an inference to him being gay. Again, though he was in my face and had his hand pressed against my chest, circumstances dictated it wasn't worth the possibility of death or a hell of a maiming. I can still remember getting my fingers ready to put through his throat and shifting myself to aim my knee at his croth (and shaking like hell at the thought of what was getting ready to happen).

Yeah, long-winded. Fighting very rarely is worth it. These days, fighting, whether it be teens or adults, can result in a death at the point of the fight or a death later as the loser broods over how to get even. It's tough trying to teach some of this to our 11-year-old...I don't want him to be a "pansy" or become "bully-bait" but I don't want him to get in fights all the time over stupid kid crap either just to be macho. I also don't want to receive a call about him from a coroner.

I didn't vote because there wasn't a choice for me.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

I'm not sure why somebody would start by shoving somebody else. If he wants to fight, why doesn't he start off by swinging his fist? Maybe he just wants to intimidate the other guy by acting tough but doesn't really want to fight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

No, he wants to fight all right, but he has to go through this ritual. There's no explanation.

Me, I was taught not to talk back, not to shove back. Yeah right, like that works. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

But this was the 80s, and all the real bullies or wackos got involved with drugs and parted ways from me (one of them, I learned later, went into a mental institution). So all that was left was kids who wanted to play bully - and the first time I faced one one them with that 'OK, let's fight' look they all backed down and never bothered me again.

After that, I never again got into a potential fight situation. And people are always extraordinarily nice to me - my wife says that it's because I look intimidating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

So if someone decides to shove me, either he's extremely self-confident or he's got some backup I don't know about. Since I probably won't know for certain which is which, the rational thing to do would be to not fight back. But I can't say for certain that I would act rationally in such a situation.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

If that's you on the left, I can understand why she thinks you look intimidating.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

I am a pretty big guy (6 3 and over 250 pounds, and I just started back up weightlifting at the gym), and I can look intimidating enough.
I've always wondered how I would hold up in a fight, in the past as a school kid I was attacked once or twice, both times I didn't really fight back.
I'm not looking for a fight, but I hope that if need be I can defend myself adequately.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

I think I've been in one fight in my entire life, and that was during the 8th grade. IIRC, it came out pretty much a draw. That was over 25 years ago. I know it happens, I see it in the news all the time here in Florida, but why after the first punch or harsh words come out, does some idiot go to his vehicle and bring in a gun into what would have been a few years ago just a fist fight? Nowadays, just throw lead instead of fists? I don't understand.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

I wouldn't want to fight a big guy...
Big guys have a major advantage in a fight. They have longer reach with their arms and legs, are usually stronger than smaller guys, and are less hurt when they take a hit.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

Well, I'm from Gryphin's generation, and when I was still young enough to seem a likely target for youthful posturing and aggression, a sucker punch was when someone came up and nailed you one without warning or provocation, or blindsided you. There was always a difference between a shove that said "You're a jerk," and one that said "F-off and die." The response depended on the circumstances, and whether there was any history of "bad blood" between them.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

Okay if it's not worth fighting over FIGHT ANYWAY because I once tried to turn away from a fight and nearly got my neck broken http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I couldn't walk for two days it hurt so bad.

Okay a sucker punch is if you start the fight by attacking the other guy from behind or from broadside while he's buisy or something.
A perfect example is a friend of mine said he was talking to this one guy's girlfriend and the guy came up and slammed a fist into his back because he thought he was trying to hit on his girl. That is a sucker punch.


And this might just be me but if you get within 18 inches of me and you are looking threatening I'm gonna take you down before you can attack me because if you are within 18 inches and you are looking threatening you can attack before I can react properly. Never let the other guy land a strike first, if you know you can block it or deflect it go ahead and let him throw the first attack so you have the "I was only defending myself" excuse but if you know he can beat you in a square fight and he is coming at you like he is about to start one....take him down first.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

My point is that too many people are bringing knives and automatic weapons to a fist fight. Almost every week here in the Tampa area I hear about some idiot who got into an argument or a fight, goes to his car, then pulls out an automatic weapon and starts bLasting people away in the parking lot. As a matter of fact, in the past couple of weeks 2 people have been killed because some idiot got into an argument, but instead of getting a weapon, used their cars as weapons and ran these people over. Come on, people, if you're in a fight and losing, be man enough to lose with grace. No bar room brawl is worth getting killed over.

Re: [OT] poll on inappropriate behavior
 

Definitely.