OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2003/split/662-1.html

look at this link...

its GONNA happen ANY F*KIN day now... imagine, fusion

real fusion

contained fusion

whats to stop us from doing anything? - desalinate seawater and irrigate deserts? - big deal - no limit to energy

feed the world - big deal, free energy
build spaceships with amazing engines - big deal, free energy
im sure we can do a .5c speed ship... that makes it 10 years to get to alpha centauri http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

remember why the world got blown up? - cuz the vogon hyper-space-construction crew put up a notice and we never bothered to read it in alpha centauri.... "you couldnt be bothered to go 5 bleedin light years to get info? well, dont blame us if you cant be bothered to be involved in local affairs"

anyway, u see my point -> any of u physics nerds missing class to play se4, please stop and finish some real physics and make us some fusion engines/powerplants

(just play se4 an hour or 2 a day max, gotta have sum fun ;P)

http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2003/split/662-1.html

anyway, who else around here follows real hard science/physics sites and tech info like you're waiting for the 'coming' ...
lol, personally, im waiting for the 'going' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

y be a pessimist when you can be an optimist?


hrm, i feel a sig line in there somewhere

[ November 26, 2003, 02:20: Message edited by: Cirvol ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

read it again, its just another step towards it, not a breakthrough. still, good news http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Well, even with fusion reactors, energy probably won't be free. Those reactors will most likely be expensive to build and maintain, and the power companies have to make their money, too. I would imagine that people thought we'll have free energy when fission reactors were invented 60 or so years ago?

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

bah, i know it aint gonna be 'free'

but, eventually...


(and i really think is a significant breakthru...

if you recall, we had fusion going a couple of years ago... but it was too expensive energy wise to keep it going... this seems like a breakthru in the final hurdle (or set of hurdles) towards self sustaining fusion reactions

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Greed, that's what. Don't get me wrong, the world needs fusion, but if/when it comes it will simply become something else for the powers that be to hoard for themselves.

We already have the capacity to eliminate starvation from this world, and probably most disease, drought and countless other sufferings as well, but we lack the will. There is too much invested in the status quo. New technology is a good thing, but it will never save the world. Only a fundamental change in the world's power structures and/or human nature can do that.

And just imagine the weapons that could be built by a nation wielding a limitless energy source. They'd make today's nukes look like firecrackers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

10 years to Alpha Centauri? I get the window seat! On second thought that also means 10 years back. Or i could stay there. I doubt it has any habitable planets. Isn't Alpha Centauri a binary system? I don't swing that way!
Yeah fusions gonna happen eventually. Gonna make that spinning butterd toast/cat array thing look like a dog and pony show.
I also don't thing fusion bombs are going to be any more powerful than what already happens with a Hydrogen Bomb. Didn't they use to call those fission/fusion/fission devices?

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Well, the alpha centauri is a tertiary system.

Alpha Centauri A is the main star (type G2) of this tertiary system, similar to our sun (also type G2) thought abit larger.
The other two are an orange dwarf Alpha Centauri B (type K1) and a small red dwarf, Alpha Centauri C (type M5) aka 'Proxima Centauri'.

More info from here homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/schatzer/Alpha-Centauri.html

[ November 26, 2003, 18:04: Message edited by: Me Loonn ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

A hydrogen bomb IS a fusion bomb. And we do have fusion reactions right now, they just take far more energy to sustain then they produce in power.

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

for all i know, we had those for some time now, how correct are my knowledges?

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

which is why fiction is so important...

without altruistic star-treks' and other cool sci-fi type fiction, people would not even see how good a thing sharing is

hopefully, with enough penetration of these ideas into the young minds of the next generation of 'powers to be', we'll have a shot at it without the massive poor % of the world rising up in a huge revolution

its a good thing that 'modern' countries today can still remember what happens when too few people control too much wealth

(*hums* les miz tune)

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

I did a nice paper for my Environmental Studies class on Fusion Power and other alternative healthy energies.

The biggest draw back with fusion is thus. Is is not free. It is very cheap to maintain and run and decomission. It has a super massive initial investment cost. The bigger a fusion generator and thus the more expensive the more efficient it will be. Fusion is a bigger is better kind of thing. A larger stable reaction produces more energy for same maintenance cost, is easier to contain and safer than a smaller one.

I wouldn't expect any fusion engines anytime soon. A few fusion reactors, but it will be a hard sale. For most people as soon as you say "fusion" and they hear "fission" or "nuclear" and they will run away and not listen any further. Don't even bother mentioning the initial price tag. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fusion is the best long term solution... but most people don't think about the long term and don't educate themselves enough on the issues to understand the difference between fusion and fission.

PS: Fusion bombs are those massive ones several hundred to thousand times more powerful than the first ones on hiroshima and nagasaki and all their standard atomic bomb ancestors.

As for future weapons... Imagine all the great energy weapons you can use with massive energy sources. Enough to create massive EMP waves without a big nuclear explosion? Lasers? Particle cannons? Mass Drivers? Rail Guns?

[ November 27, 2003, 04:00: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

How far can you take that? Wouldn't it be most efficient to create one very giant fusion reactor to power an entire country the size of, say, the United States? But doesn't that take up a massive amount of rare fuel in one place?

Eventually we will run into the same fuel problems with nuclear power plants that we have with fossil fuels.

I'm into microwave solar energy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No. You loose power going along transmission lines. As for fuel being rare..hah. Fusion runs off of, at worst, isotopes of hydrogen. Hydrogen is ridculously common, and the isotopes just aren't that rare.

As far as microwave solar energy goes: have fun dealing with atmospheric interference, the side effects of dumping that much energy through the atmosphere, and the fun effects you get if the beam is partially off-target.

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

The Hydrogen needed for Fusion is found in common water. Something like one out of every 3 water molecules on earth possess it.

Heh. Maybe eventually we burn up all the water on Earth for Fusion power. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 27, 2003, 05:19: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Heh. Intersting secondary thought on using solar energy of any type. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you go that way you are still using a Fusion Reactor. One much larger than we can currently ever hope to create. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I guess for fusion the proof is in the pudding as far as bigger is better is concerned. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

For some of the best info on Fusion Reactors and current research progress etc you can check out
ITER "The Way"

[ November 27, 2003, 05:41: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which if implemented how it is proposed by the major proponents of such technology would be nil.

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

This is all fun and stuff, but I will wager a buck that fussion engines that can be used for space flight will not become a reality in our life times, or that of our grand childrens. The oil companies simply will not allow it to happen.

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We will run out of oil in less then 100 years - and it it is the most optimistic prognosis. Sooner or later we MUST develop a profitabble Fussion reaction or our whole civilization will cramble http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ November 27, 2003, 14:21: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

We were supposed to run out of oil a few years ago Oleg... there is far more oil around than you think there is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We will run out of oil in less then 100 years - and it it is the most optimistic prognosis. Sooner or later we MUST develop a profitabble Fussion reaction or our whole civilization will cramble http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have a proposal! We go to Titan using a Fusion Engine and harvest the natural gasses abundant on it and bring them back to earth so the Oil companies stay happy. I think some of the estimates around suggest Titan has enough natural gas to power all of the earth for something like 50 Million years.

Titan Natural Gas?

Nobody light a match. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (Not that that would do anything without some oxygen.)

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And this is quite true. All those predictions are always based on known oil reserves. The problem is we keep drilling into national parks and the bottom of the ocean etc and finding more of the darn stuff. I can't wait till they start drilling into Antartica.

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So that is why there are no pro-nuclear vampires ! (Freefall)

[ November 27, 2003, 16:47: Message edited by: Erax ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

a year ago i've read an article in the local newspaper that marine research companies had found unimaginably rich deposits of oil & natural gas in the ocean along the eastern canada-USA border. it alone shouldve been enough oil for canada and USA for a very, very long time...
just one example.

however, oil is still not finite, and im pretty sure the big heads realize that

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Hmmmm...

Now why was it that helium-3 was considered valuable enough to go mine it from the moon? (Solar wind 'deposits', basically.) Was it that fusion would be easier with helium-3 than with hydrogen? Or was it that you'd get more energy from a helium-3 reaction than a hydrogen reaction?

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Would have to be more energy. In general, the smaller the element the more energy you get from fusion.

Fission, BTW works opposite; the break-even point is iron.

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Iron is the break even point for both fusion and fission for producing energy. You can fusion anything upto iron and produce energy and you can fission anything down to iron and produce energy.

And while hydrogen alone gets you the best reaction energywise you have other considerations. Helium-3 Fusion reactions as opossed to the current dueterium/tritium reaction process would produce less radioactive biproducts and wastes. While the current process has at worst materials that will need to be stored away for 50 to 100 years before being safe, Helium-3 biproducts are much safer and less radioactive. Helium-3 is extremely rare on Earth however.

Edit: Also Helium-3 has more problems with the containment field and some other areas of design physics. You can't just take a Hydrogen fusion design and use it for Helium. Helium-3 is more efficient for our energy production needs. Note: Even on the moon He-3 is very rare. 4 or 5 parts per billion in lunar soil. You would have to process 100 tonnes of lunar soil to get 1 tonne of He-3. However it would take 25 tonnes of He-3 in a fusion reaction to create enough energy to power all of the US for one year.

I would say He-3 is a viable power source for any future moon colonies but more efficient and even safer would probably be large scale solar generators at the light pole of the moon which is always covered in light. I wouldn't count on He-3 as a power source down here or other places without a native supply however.

[ November 28, 2003, 03:13: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

oh yeah, and someone mentioned that alpha centauri is a trinary system...

yes it is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

which means the likelyhood of decent planets is a little bit lower...

but look at vega http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

http://science.slashdot.org/article....id=134&tid=160

looks like they do have real 'planets' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

and vega is only 25 light years away, or 50 years with .5c fusion/ion engines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Actually I would expect a number of different reactor designs to become prevalent in the future for fusion. Each planet or section of space would likely have different designs based on the most abundant fuel for a fusion reaction. On the Earth sea water. The moon HE-3. Europa water again other outer moons maybe ram scoops collecting massive amounts of Hydrogen from neighboring gas giants. Some other locations... depends on what they have.

Edit: And don't forget that even with a .5c engine it would likely take longer than 50 years. First you have to accelerate to .5c and at some point you will have to decelerate unless you want to hit some large solid body or even not so solid body at 1/2 the speed of light. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Those two considerations add a nice solid chunk of time to any transit to another star.

[ December 02, 2003, 22:29: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Cyrien, good info there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif thx

but seriously, the way things are progressing rapidly on the fusion front - i doubt he-3 will even be wanted, all the design efforts are going into the common fusion which we can get from sea water http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

makes more sense for us overall...

and as far as the oil companies go, trust me,
the smart ones are already doing a lot of investing in fusion - they just want to stay rich

long term, i think we WILL see a fusion powered ion engine --- it seems like those ion engines really are the best idea for long long trips

just recently, nasa decided on doing a fission ion engine as a follow up for their first ion engine on deep space 1

slashdot.org had an article about it just the other day... i'll find the link if anyone is really interested

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

The problem with that is we can actually say when Fusion will become available. Heck ITER just formalised the location for their first energy producing fusion power plant. Within the next decade or two you will see fusion being used.

Unified Theory however is still just theory. They can't even prove that it is unified yet let alone work it to do anything. IF it proves true then you are probably right. That MIGHT make a better engine. But quite simply we can't tell anything about it atm. How efficient will the conVersions be? Theory might say 100% but how will that work out in reality? Cost effectiveness for such an engine?

For unified theory there are tons of questions that have no answers right now. Given enough time and assuming that the theory pans out they could indeed be the engines of the future.

Given what is available now and what is known now and what will work now I would have to make an argument for fission and fusion engines over any theoretically possible one using Unified Energy Theory.

Edit: And you would still have to generate the initial energy you are converting into another... Fusion anyone? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ December 04, 2003, 15:14: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

does gravity have waves?

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Probably, but they have not been detected (proven) yet.

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

I just want to put Mr. Fusion on the back of my Delorean to power the flux capacitor. Is that asking so much? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Yes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Mr. Fission is the king of miniaturization.
You can probably make incredibly small fission reactors that would work and produce energy. So long as you have a way to get rid of the waste products that is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Mr. Fusion is the king of make it big. I doubt you could ever make a stable energy yielding fusion reaction that would fit in a car.

Let's not mention the flux capacitor and the probability of time travel.

[ December 04, 2003, 19:08: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Hmm Mr fusion may not be practical but, there is a table top device that can do small scale fusion reactions, it s for research applications. Unfortunately I don't remember all the details of the article.

As for the Unified theory, they have combined and confirmed in the lab the equations for Electromagnetism and the Weak Nuclear force a few years back. a detail that was mentioned recently on progress of some other research.

HE3 all I can really remember on that is that it solved some problems dealing with plasma densities required for reactions and such.

Their are several fusion reactor designs, funny thing is some are not actually new, just that computing technology has reached a point where the calculations required are now possible. Read about that in "Computing in Science and Engineering". Reactor design was referred to as a stellarator proposed back in the 50's.

As for fusion propulsion, I can't remember what the design was called but a reactor Soviet era design had some deficient that actually lent itself to propulsive use. The containment fields were weak at the ends, not desirable for a power reactor but if your looking for thrust.......

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Hmm Mr fusion may not be practical but, there is a table top device that can do small scale fusion reactions, it s for research applications. Unfortunately I don't remember all the details of the article."

Yes, you can. Unfortunately there's a bit of a detail you missed..it takes more energy than it produces!

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Yep. That is why bigger is better with fusion. In order to start it up you need really strong lasers in order to contain it you need a super strong magnetic field. All this takes energy. So the key is to get a big enough fusion reaction so that the amount of energy you put out is greater than that which you put in. IE: You need size. You get larger and larger energy outputs and the energy required to start it remains static and the energy required for containment increases much much slower than the output. In addition you want to reach ignition or very close to it for maximum energy output. Ignition means you no longer need outside energy input to sustain the reaction. It is a self sustaining reaction. This requires size. When was the Last time you saw a small star?

You can have all the small fusion reactions you want. You just won't get any more energy from it than you put in, not unless you can figure out how to A> Start it without using lots of energy B> Contain it without using lots of energy C> Get a low level ignition or near ignition.

While A and B might eventually be overcome C itself defies our understanding of physics and thus can be considered impossible, at least in our lifetimes I would bet.

Thus no small fusion reactions to power things like cars etc... at least not directly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Use a battery charge it using plentiful fusion energy and then run a car on that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

should have cleared up one thing when I said research purposes, it was not energy related.
i did say, not practical, not immpossible.

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Right - the point is to have a fusion device in your car just to be cool, and what better than an energy-reducing device, to be cool... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

I don't think fusion is going to bring on a new sort of engines. I think Energy Unification theory will.
That means, physicians think all energy are linked. If you are able to understand the way it works, then you can alter one energy into another.

For instance, you could creat a magnetic wave and transform it into gravity wave.

does gravitic engine rings a bell ?

[ December 04, 2003, 12:21: Message edited by: Unknown_Enemy ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

Mine? It has a fusion reactor under the hood. This baby can go from 0 to 0.5c in under 10 years.
The mileage really sucks though.

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

that's nothing. why, my transportation can go 270cc's a second.

[ December 05, 2003, 04:08: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

270cc's ~ 56 mph
.5c ~ 62500 mph

I win! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Want some cheese? It's from the moon.

Re: OT: fusion is getting SOOOO close -> then comes fusion engines!!! ::P muhuhahah(no j
 

9.72 KPH. ignore the cubic, that's just so i could have 2 c's.

and what do you know about the cheese generater?!?!