Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

ok, I am haveing a go at making a mod.
basicly I want the original flavor of the game with some annoying unballences fixed, and a handfull of things added.
I have started with PVKs ballance mod...
erm is that ok with you pvk?
and so far I have added small organic armor, small christiline armor.
going to add small seeking parisites.
I also want to make the massive planetry shield generator better, any ideas for this?

also what things do you find annoying, which would be fairly easy to add/change but still keep the original feel?


edit, ok stuck 3 levels of small seeking parasite, it does 30 damage at range 3 of the first level, 80 dam range 4! level 3, and only takes up 5kt.
there is a catch however, it can only target ftr/sat/drones.

[ December 05, 2003, 10:54: Message edited by: se5a ]

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

Keep in mind that the abilities of OA and CA do not work on units. It is still a good idea to have small Versions, just don't think they will work as expected. Drop off the abilities and it will not be confusing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The dominance of the DUC/PPB/APB line of weaponry. The fact that PPBs are not a special weapon as they should be, but rather a main line weapon. Meaning, they should not be very useful against non-shielded targets or against targets with phased shields, only powerful against ships with non-phased shields. The fact that armor is incredibaly weak. The fact that shield regenerators are useless in most situations because ships rarely survive the 7 rounds to make the shield regenerator useful once they start getting shot at. The fact that there are no special damage warheads for mines (ionic mines, tachyon mines, etc.). The fact that it is incredibly easy to conquer planets. Make defending milita per pop really low, and boost their HP and damage. Make ground combat Last 1 or 2 rounds. This will make ground combat take a lot longer, will allow the use of reinforcements on both sides, etc.

[ December 05, 2003, 15:45: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

Some easy fixes that IMHO will improve the strategic part of the game without loosing the Vanilla flavour:
- Make upgrading facilities more worthwile.
-- Research I/II/III could be 500/700/900 points
-- Resources I/II/III could be 800/1000/1200 units
-- Space Yards I/II/III could build with 2000/3000/4000
- If you do the increased output/buildrate thing, you could also increase cost for certain items. Making larger shipsizes (way) more expensive will keep the ships smaller for a longer time and make smaller ships a viable option later in the game.
- Add 2 more levels of Armor before Stealth and Scattering. This is a double fix, both making armor stronger and delaying those cloacked raiders a bit.
- Improve mid and late game fighters. An easy way would be to make Medium 20 KT and Large 30 KT.
- Get rid of the Quantum reactor.
- Solar Sails, especially II and III are too cheap. Put extra levels of Solar Collectors in between making them worthwile as an alternative to the QR.
- Increase base cost of PPB ( x 2 or x 4 )
+++ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

Considering how cheap armor is for its effectiveness, I'd say its not weak. Aside from the need to repair after battle, of course..

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">AWww MAN!
so a small shield regen would not work eather?
so do you think I should make the small armor better than normal small armor, or keep it about the same?
I supose increasing these slightly would give a simular effect...
Ill change it to costing 15min (15 org) and giving it a space of 1 and a structure of 5.
it looks like emmisive armor works, maybe I could use that ability instead...

do you like my small parasite idea? do you think it is balanced?
lev 1:
dam at rng = 30 30 30 0 0 0 0 0 0
lev 2:
dam at rng = 55 55 55 0 0 0 0 0 0
lev 3:
dam at rng = 80 80 80 80 0 0 0 0 0

all have a structure of 5, and a reaload of 15, can only target ftr\sat\drone.

thanks for the other sugestions guys, ill have a play around with them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ok, I have given it 30,000 phased shield points, I am a little reluctent to change the cost, in my opnion special tech SHOULD cost lots...

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Please do!

Quote:

... I also want to make the massive planetry shield generator better, any ideas for this?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I recommend the kinds of values for planetary shield generators I put in Proportions Mod. I strengthened them a lot so they are actually useful, and also made it so there were some available without ancient found tech, which aren't quite as good, and all of them require research to develop. Use freely.

Quote:

also what things do you find annoying, which would be fairly easy to add/change but still keep the original feel?first level, 80 dam range 4! level 3, and only takes up 5kt.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mainly, better weapon balance. See the Stock Balance mod thread, where we were discussing making a mod such as this to see if Malfador would include it in the next patch.

I'd say the fighter defensive to-hit items should be researchable up another three or more levels, to allow them to stay somewhat difficult to hit even when ships have Combat Sensors III (+65) and training (+40 or more), and PDC gives a +65 to-hit, since fighter ECM only gives +30, and afterburners (I forget - another +5 or +10). Basically, I think fighters should have devices which can eventually give them another +70 defense (or at least another +30) compared to what's possible in the existing game.

PvK

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Armor is only a viable alternative to standard shields when PPBs are in use. Otherwise... it is too weak. It can help a little against mines, where shields are useless, but mine sweepers are really cheap anyways, so that is not much of a benefit. Sure, shield depleters can do a lot of damage to shields, but you need a few of them to take out shielding on bigger ships. Use Armor III instead of Phased Shields V to prevent SD damage, and you will find your ships die much more easily. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif All I am saying is that armor should be a better alternative to shields than it is now. It just dead ends rather early (not counting the ECM armors and such, which are fairly weak in the hit point area).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like the idea, but the short range makes them useless. They need to be able to chase ships. As they are now, all ships have to do is move back a little and the seekers will hit their max range and die.

[ December 05, 2003, 19:04: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

Yeah, to stay vanilla but improve it without changing it much, just add some extra levels of armor research where it gets significantly stronger and significantly more expensive. Probably should also add more levels to organic and crystalline armor as well, to be fair, but be careful not to make those get too much better - maybe just increase their sctructure at the higher levels, with little or no improvement to their special abilities.

PvK

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

[quote]Originally posted by PvK:

Quote:

Mainly, better weapon balance. See the Stock Balance mod thread, where we were discussing making a mod such as this to see if Malfador would include it in the next patch.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you mean they might balance things in the next patch? I hope they do!!!

Quote:

I'd say the fighter defensive to-hit items should be researchable up another three or more levels, to allow them to stay somewhat difficult to hit even when ships have Combat Sensors III (+65) and training (+40 or more), and PDC gives a +65 to-hit, since fighter ECM only gives +30, and afterburners (I forget - another +5 or +10). Basically, I think fighters should have devices which can eventually give them another +70 defense (or at least another +30) compared to what's possible in the existing game. PvK

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From what I can see looking at the afterburners they are not giving any defencive bonus at all...
adding some there would be an excelent idea though.
what if I add a small deffencive bonus to the higher tech small engines also?


I was keeping the small parasites targeting only units to make them uneque, I could change them to target ships also, but I would probibly need to increse the damage significantly, wich would make them unbalanced vs fighters.
I havent played round with the small rocket pods, havent even looked at the math on those, do they need adjusting?

also, in the game no wepons are showing up at all, and some other small items are not eather. what have I done???

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We were hoping. Last I heard, SJ had sent in a suggestion buy not heard back.

Quote:

From what I can see looking at the afterburners they are not giving any defencive bonus at all... adding some there would be an excelent idea though. what if I add a small deffencive bonus to the higher tech small engines also?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree those would be good places to add some defense bonuses. My thoughts are that they should be able to get an additional +70 to +30 defense compared to what's currently possible, but it should require more research than you currently have to do to get what you can get now. The existing stuff's balance doesn't need to change up to CS/ECM III and Ion Engine, but there should be higher levels of research available which can keep up better with the things that ships can pile on (ship/fleet training, PDC 5, and Combat Sensors +30 better than fighters). Off the cuff numbers might be:
+10 defense for afterburners
+10 defense for CT engines
+20 defense for JP engines
+30 defense for Q engines
+40 defense for small ECM IV (requires another level of research)
+50 defense for small ECM V (requires another level of research)
+60 defense for small ECM VI (requires another level of research)
+40 attack for small Combat Sensors IV (requires another level of research)
+50 attack for small Combat Sensors V (requires another level of research)
+60 attack for small Combat Sensors VI (requires another level of research)

So the hardest-to-hit fighter would have ABs, Q engines, and ECM VI, and would be 70% harder to hit than current fighters, but would take 3 more levels of research and require use of ABs. Since currently, late-game ships have no great difficulty hitting fighters with regular weapons, this should make it so that they now may have some difficulty, while PDC V at +65% will still be able to hit them pretty well.

That'd be my first shot, to be tested out and tweaked if necessary.

Quote:

... I havent played round with the small rocket pods, havent even looked at the math on those, do they need adjusting?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think they're pretty reasonable. Main problem is they have reload 30, and the AI will have them sit around to die after they fire all their weapons - hopefully MM will fix that.

Quote:

also, in the game no wepons are showing up at all, and some other small items are not eather. what have I done???

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you edit the files so that the component order is changed and then reload an existing game, the existing game will have components shuffled on existing ships. If they don't appear in the design window, then it could be from a typo or a tech requirement.

PvK

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Armor is only a viable alternative to standard shields when PPBs are in use. Otherwise... it is too weak. It can help a little against mines, where shields are useless, but mine sweepers are really cheap anyways, so that is not much of a benefit. Sure, shield depleters can do a lot of damage to shields, but you need a few of them to take out shielding on bigger ships. Use Armor III instead of Phased Shields V to prevent SD damage, and you will find your ships die much more easily. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif All I am saying is that armor should be a better alternative to shields than it is now. It just dead ends rather early (not counting the ECM armors and such, which are fairly weak in the hit point area). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Armor III is better than any shield up to III, and much easier to research than Phased III. It does end too earlier, but remember I said for the cost.

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

I think you missed the point... you are not at all disagreeing with anything I said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif My suggestion was to provide a real alternative to just using pure shields after a while. Adding more levels of armor can do that.

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

phew, I am halfway through the stock balance mod thread, *** you guys can waffle on...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

Why thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

Make the massive planetary shields better? There are lots of things you could do... make them cheaper, give them more shields, make them phased, or even a combination of all 3! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

opinions!
do you think that PDC should be changed?
I will be changeing the fighters defencive bonuses with engines and afterburners. but I need to work it in with the PDC if I am going to change them aswell.

so,
are pdc to good at shooting down missiles?
if so how much so, and what do you think needs to be done to change it.

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

I like the change of making 2 different PDC components, one that targets fighters and another that targets missiles, both at 20kT.

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

I thought about that when I saw it in adamant. interesting idea, but I think it would be changeing the flavour a little to much...

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

Perhaps increase the damage resistance of missiles and decrease the to hit bonus of PDC then.

Oh, and I believe one of the first mods to do it was Devnull, which actually has the missile PDC combined with minesweeping. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ December 11, 2003, 06:13: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

instead of changing the to hit with the pdc, I changed the defence bonus to the missiles, they are set at 40 as defult so I changed them to 55, seems silly to have them easyer to hit than drones...

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

Increasing the default to-hit mod sounds like a good idea to me, although keep in mind that as technology increases, ships increase their PD to-hit ability from +70 (PDC I with no combat sensors or training) to +175 (PDC with CS3 and full ship & fleet training). PDC range varies from 3 to 5, which does tend to give an additional -20 for high-tech ships using range-5 PDC.

Since there is only one level of seeker defense modifier available, and ship fire accuracy varies by 105% throughout the game (and by +/- 60 or so per race, potentially), there isn't any way to really keep PDC useful-yet-possible-to-miss-with throughout the game.

PvK

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

I see what your saying, by changing the to hit on the missiles I have made it harder to hit them early game, but havent done much to the late game... *sigh*

it seems realy silly, why didnt MM put a weopon seeker to hit modifier into the components?
i could add dumy missiles, but I am thinking it would change the game to much for what I am trying to do with this mod.
ill have to do some more thinking on this and work out some maths...

anyway, I have changed the to hit on the larger ship hulls to follow the pattern, inluding the carriers.
I also reduced the drone hull cost slightly (100, 130, 160)
gave smaller engines and afterburners a defencive bonus.

do you think I should add smaller (5kt and 10kt) of shields and armor? (esp. christalline and organic)

I think ill test it thouroly before adding more levels of armor and ecm though...
im also not to sure about adding more levels of spaceyard/makeing the later spacyards better...
maybe if I made the ship spaceyards get bigger and better later game? so eventualy you could build a battlestation which could build faster than your home planet...
ahimnn something to ponder on.

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

Just make higher level missiles have a lot of seeker damage resistance. It will simulate the effects of them getting hit less often. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

ok... I added two more levels of armor, called it Hardend armor. made them cost 60 and 70 minerals, and 10 and 15 rad.

I think I might test it before I do much more.
who is interested?

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

I think I might have come up with another idea for balancing PDC and seekers!
increce seeker speed for the higher levels!

thoughts?

also its prety nearly finished.

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

saw a history channel program this evening, with those cool russian spinning ICBMs.. really put some english on those things, to avoid the laser beams. I mean, ALOT of fuel being burnt out to the sides.

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

I'd like to see the Normal & Phased Shields differated more. Have Normal shields discovered on odd levels, while phased discovered on even. Phased should have give less Shield points then Normal Shields, which would make you decide on either more normal shield points, or less phased shield points.

Re: Strawberry Vanilla MOD
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am going to make normal and phased use diferent familys, havent done it yet though...
and give a few more levels of normal, I agree, normal should have more points.
I might bring phased foward a little bit, but not going to have them available right at the begining...