Intelligence ops
 

Which ops are shown in enemy log? All?

Re: Intelligence ops
 

In the vanilla game I seem to recall few projects actually show who is responsible. (Puppet Politicals Parties and Crew Insurrection will, obviously, show who is acting) However, you will be caught if the project fails, which happens more often than not. But you may be speaking of a mod if you are referring to a certain game, so I cannot speak for this peculiar situation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Intelligence ops
 

Yes, all intel projects should be reported to the victim because it's a major game event when millions of people are poisoned or a bomb explodes in the cargo hold of a ship. If they aren't reported, it's a bug. What is not always reported is the originator of the attack. Sometimes it says "We suspect the [empire name] of this [negative adjective] act." and other times it just baldly reports the event without telling you who did it.

[ December 10, 2003, 15:30: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Intelligence ops
 

Yes, in the default game, the target gets the Messages following:

"Num Target Messages := 1"

in Intelprojects.txt

The exception is that on the Communications Mimic, only the "Target" gets the message, not the "Other" empire. The "Other" empire just gets a message about the broken treaty, but he doesn't know that it was from an intel project.


Now it is an entirely different issue if the Target empire knows who the attacker was. If the attack was successful, the attacker is only identified if the target message has the [%SourceEmpireName] identifier in it. Projects that are stopped by your CI are just indicated as "One of our intelligence projects against the [%SourceEmpireName] was defeated by counter-intelligence defenses." but it doesn't say what the exact attack (or number of points) was.

Slick.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

I was quite unclear. As you guessed I meant when the target empire knows who was behind the op. It seems the target gets the info about attacker every time a project fails, so it's not wise to check if your ally has CI on not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Intelligence ops
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. Use of "any" or specific has no influence on the success of the attack. These just allow you to direct your attack(s) as you choose.

Slick.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

That isn't always true. The "any" technology will quite often fail as it tries to steal a technology you already have. While a specific tech theft will generally work out better since you probably chose a tech they have that you don't. But if you don't then it still fails because you have the tech... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Interestinly enough this doesn't seem to affect Empire Star Chart thefts as it only steals charts to systems you don't already have a chart for and once you have all the charts they do it will always fail.

Wonder why a similiar system can't be worked out for the "any" tech theft based on the enemies known techs compared to yours.

PS: Towards the end of the game I love taking apart enemy empires with intel. 4 or 6 food contaminations and anarchy Groups a turn can be quite devestating to an enemy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ December 10, 2003, 15:20: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

Re: Intelligence ops
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only if playing vs. dumb AI or a vastly inferior enemy. As Counterintel requires only one third of the points to defend, you need about 4 times, if not more, the number of intel points than your enemy to do something effective. With 4 times the resources, I can crush an enemy even without intel http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

I think Intel only can accelerate the inevitable downfall of an inferior enemy. Doesn't matter if at the end of the game or in the middle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Therefore, usually a waste of resources, unless you have too many mineral-poor planets and already maxxed research.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

Of course you could just crush them... but it is so much more fun to sit safe in your systems crushing anything they throw at you while slowly shredding their empire from within.

Note: I have found that most people stop developing intel after 100k to 200k intel points per turn. So with a simple 400k to 600k(this with -50% to intel points in race bonuses) I can regularly break down their defenses. With four fully developed level 3 counter programs stored up in the back I can focus on attacking and breaking down the enemy while they will be forced to do nothing but defend. Even the few attacks they might try to get through are easily blocked.

Intel is far too often undervalued. Never underestimate the ability to grab and analyze enemy ships pretty early in the game with a strong intel system. With such a system research doesn't have to be upto par with everyone else. You research what you need and take the common areas from others. And self destruct devices can't stop intel ship takeover. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also while breaking through built up intel defense can take awhile, once it is broken down it is easy to keep it down.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

One more thing Intel is very good for. Stealing Mine Sweepers, without which your opponent is going to be very careful with his large fleets. I used this while holding-back Gravey in Adamant009. Of course, I was just delaying the inevitable, but it gave me time to amass a huge fleet with which I faced him down... and lost.

[edit: will != while]

[ December 10, 2003, 17:43: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Intelligence ops
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The "any" or specific does not affect the chances of the success or failure of the intelligence op. This is in response to the question about chances of success. Chances of success are only dependent on the defender having enough CI. If he has enough CI to stop the attack, the chance of success is 0%. If he doesn't the chance of success is 100% for all except PPP which *I think* is 50%.

As you state, for the Crew Insurrection project, this decision can affect your actually getting something useful or not, but this was not the question. And you are right that it is often better to target newer models.

Slick.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

I am currently in an Intel battle (with an AI) I capture 5-6 ships a turn, but one project always fails from counter intel. I don't know if you need 100% of the CI, I think you just need some points, but any attacks after the CI is gone are not stopped. He only has one system, so I suspect his CI is lower than the 50K of ship capture. Yet he still stops one attack a turn.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

There are few thing as satisfying as getting a failed ship takeover intel project because they have no more ships to takeover. Destroying or taking over all of an AIs ships without having ever sent one of your ships into their space, ahhh how sweet is that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Intelligence ops
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He does need to block 50K, but he doesn't actually need to be generating 50K from his facilities. From the FAQ:

10.1.7 CI projects get a 20% bonus and higher levels of CI projects get a multiplier as follows. 1000 points put into CI projects yield: 1000 x 120% (defense bonus) = 1200 defensive points.
CI1: 1200 x 1 = 1200
CI2: 1200 x 2 = 2400
CI3: 1200 x 3 = 3600 (Suicide Junkie)

Therefore, if he had CI3, he would only need to have 13889 points per turn to block 50000. [50000 * (1000/3600) = 13889]

Also, he could be getting some more intel points from a partnership treaty with another empire.

[edit: typpo]

Slick.

[ December 10, 2003, 19:07: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Intelligence ops
 

Here's a related question: does an intel project (say food contamination) get a negative to its chance of success if the target is "any planet" - as compared to setting a known target?

thanks,

Alarik

Re: Intelligence ops
 

CouterIntel is just too powerful - as is Intel, if it succeeds. The whole system is just not good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif .
This formula is the reason why you cannot succeed with intel "with a simple 400k to 600k points against 100k to 200k where most people stop".
You need about double or triple that amount, unless your enemies are AI or very dumb. 200k are more than enough to completely stop 600k, not to mention the stored points in ongoing CI projects that have to be worn down first. And there should be plenty stored CI points because what else can you do with intel points other than storing lots of them during peacetime.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

How about a mod that drops the max storage of CI down a lot, so you get the affect of only being able to defend with what you can produce? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Intelligence ops
 

Not to mention that having three times as many intelligence points as your opponent is usually not possible, unless you maxed cunning while all the other Empires minimized this characteristic. And then you would have a lot of problems in other fields, and you would still have to bypass the CI already stored. Good luck to you for you will need it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Intelligence ops
 

Must agree with Roanon. Intel is a fine defensive weapon but, unless you're up against AI's, forget it. Use the space for Research instead.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

I also agree that the intel model could use an overhaul. But let's not forget that intel should be kept somewhat muffled so that games aren't decided by it. SE4 is about ships and fleets being the most powerful part of the game backed by a strong economy. Intel could and should play a vital role but not so much as to nerf ships and fleets. "4X and 1I" just doesn't have the same ring to it...

Slick.

[ December 11, 2003, 15:01: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Intelligence ops
 

I too found intel in the original SE IV unsatisfactory and the counter intel too powerful, especially against AI races with high bonus settings.
Therefore I reduced the effective amount for all counter intel projects to 1: higher counter intel projects can store more points, but are not more effective per point.
Second I reduced the modifier for counter intel in the settings file from 120 to 50. You need now 2 counter intel points to defeat 1 point of an atttacking project.
Third the cost of the more effective intel projects like communication mimic was increased and I added some very costly projects like "planet destruction" (blows up a planet) or "planet infection" (creates a plague on a colony).
And finally I use my intel mod that is included in the SE IV gold CD which makes all attacking intel projects a racial technology. This allows you to create different AI races who will use intel more or less aggressively.
But that's just my personal flavour.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

I agree that the current intel system could use some major improvement.

Please note that I never claimed intel was the best strategy only that it could be made into a viable one even with the current system taking into account the way most people view intel, as worthless. It would be interesting to see a combination of 3 or 4 players all with high intel working together intel wise to tear apart a stronger opponent.

As for 400k or 600k intel v 100k or 200k defensive intel

100k x 1.2 = 120k
120k x 2 = 240k
120k x 3 = 360k

200k x 1.2 = 240k
240k x 2 = 480k
240k x 3 = 720k

So the 200k intel person can block you out with lvl 3 CI. The 100k person will most likely defeat the 400k person but will find themselves in dire straights indeed if faced with the 600k intel on the attack.

And that is assuming level 3 CI. If you choose to give a little love to intel you will most likely be attacking them before they have that level developed, possibly before they have intel developed at all. Most people develop intel lvl 1 rather early for basic defense but nothing else in that tree until abit later.

Remember I never claimed this is a power game or even a good game or something to be done, only that it COULD be done (and has been done a few times in the past) with successful results, EVEN against a human. BUT surprise is always the most important factor here. If they know you are going to do it then it is easy to develop enough intel to block out the attacker. After the fact it will take longer to develop a sufficient intel force to block than it does for the other to break through even 4 fully developed CI 3 projects including accumulation of new defense point spending. IE: Assuming the defending continues to spend only in defense. Most people won't even notice that you are breaking through until you have taken out several CIs. By then it is far too late to act. After all you are only hitting with 4 intel projects a turn. Many just see the simple little blocked intel project message and don't even bother checking until it pops up several turns in a row. BECAUSE INTEL ISN'T A THREAT. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Once intel does break through a 100k defense it only takes 2 Tech espionages a turn to break any new buildup. Half the attacking points used at 150k x 2 leaving enough for an attack causing defender to break all treaties with their allies (large scale resource disruption and if ships are all locked together even combat scenarios of ally v ally, maybe a few glassed planets) at 20k for each of those with 300k to spend you can max out at 15 so a real total of 2 tech espionage to break 3 CI3 stored up in the event of counter attack and 6 treaties broken per turn with 180k leftover each turn for a new CI3. Once all treaties are down, even if quickly replaced the damage has been done. Now start with one turn of crew insurrections at 50k with 300k to spend that is 6 ships from the enemy in one turn. Negligable damage, unless you target a fleets minesweepers, supply ships, etc. It will also likely let you see into enemy systems and view their planets which allows you to specifically target the best most developed breathable ones next turn with 3 PPP or 6 Ground Contaminationsor a combination of them. -60 planet value in one turn or whole of the best planets switching sides. With this you can make large inroads into enemy production capacity in a short time. Take over crews to find targets and target the enemies strongest while taking over key vessels in the enemy fleets to prevent invasion. For smaller planets it is easy to bring the pop down to 0 with food contamination and totally eliminate their production. Depening on what the enemy has on their worlds anarchy Groups can also be devestating to planetary morale AND production. Insurrection on enemy mine layers and boom whole enemy fleets can be lost to prelayed mine fields.

With a large intel production base once you break through it is easy to crush the enemy in a matter of just a few turns with a well thought out strike plan. Many of the intel projects are quite devestating when taken as a directed group action.

So yes CI is very strong. But probably because it has to be in order to block the extremely strong intel projects. Most people even when they do get successful intel projects off aren't thinking about what they can do with it for maximum effect. They use it as something to harrass the enemy because INTEL ISN'T DANGEROUS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Intelligence ops
 

Actually, level 1 Intelligence gives level 2 CI, not level 1. You can launch a level 1 CI project right from the beginning of the game, but as you don't have any intelligence point, it won't be useful, unless you have a good partnership. So you will need twice as many intelligence points to break through, unless of course your target has lowered Cunning to 50%. If you did plan on using Intelligence a lot, you will have 100% Cunning or better, so it breaks even then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Intelligence ops
 

I am aware of the levels of CI in the tech tree. That is why if you look at my numbers I didn't include a calculation for level 1 CI. It is pointless. Level 1 CI would be 120k x 1 = 120k. Worthless for a defense intel even if you could get intel points from a Partnership treaty to use.

All my numbers were for level 2 CI and level 3 CI with the x 1.2 x 2 or x 1.2 x 3 multipliers that go with them.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Also, he could be getting some more intel points from a partnership treaty with another empire.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, good call. I am his partner http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , so he is getting 20% of my intel budget to use. Hmmmm, I am stopping myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Even when I was getting 10-11 ships evey two turns, only one project would be stopped, but partnership could be adding a lot to the CI score.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Also, he could be getting some more intel points from a partnership treaty with another empire.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, good call. I am his partner http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , so he is getting 20% of my intel budget to use. Hmmmm, I am stopping myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Even when I was getting 10-11 ships evey two turns, only one project would be stopped, but partnership could be adding a lot to the CI score. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sorry and no offense, but I found that very funny!! Mostly because I could see myself doing something like that...

You are probably cancelling out more intel points than you are receiving from the partnership since the enemy gets the 3.6:1 advantage and your empire is probably much bigger so you are contributing much more to the partnership than the enemy is. Time to break that old treaty.

Slick.

Re: Intelligence ops
 

First day of the month. Two intel operatives walk into the Central Intelligence building.

"How's it going Bob? Get anything done Last month?"

"Pretty good Jim. We were able to convince 11 ships to join us from this one Empire. We were going for twelve though... maybe next month. How about you? Anyone good defensive actions going?"

"Not so hot. We have been working on helping our partner but Last month we only managed to stop 1 out of 12 attempts to subvery some of their ships. Oh well. Can't win em all. Cya next month Bob."

Talk about the left hand not knowing what the right is doing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Intelligence ops
 

Dup post. Looks like I need to click into the window before I start typing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ December 12, 2003, 15:58: Message edited by: Parasite ]

Re: Intelligence ops
 

Dup post

[ December 12, 2003, 15:57: Message edited by: Parasite ]

Re: Intelligence ops
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Numbers... I get 256 intel point from him in trade. Impressive Politial savy.

I have just less than 400K points intel to his Superior PS

The treaty keeps my new ships from fighting my future ships when they are in the same sector, and I want the ships whole for a suprise later on to a real player.

Yes, I love the setup too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ December 12, 2003, 16:09: Message edited by: Parasite ]