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Communists on the moon !
I didn't see enough "off topics" on this board today so... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And if I remember these can get really interesting.
As I heard... the Chineese are planning on sending a manned mission to the Moon in 2008-2009. Do you people think this might spark another space race and get us back on the right track again:)? Too bad the Russians gave up on their manned Moon mission... their rocket was sure a pretty thing to see:) I'm asking myself this because when the Chineese launched their first human into orbit, some American news channels were quick to point out that China might militarize space and that "we" should get ready for it. (Of course us Europeans took a less paranoid stance but... thats not the point here:) Of course there are strong trade relations between China and the US that were just not present between them and the Soviet Union (ahhh the good old days:) so the conditions are different... but still. Do you people think we'll se another race-for-space developing in the next few years or decades? Sure would be cool though:) |
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and, of course, the US would never militarize space...and if you buy that, i've got some ocean-front property in alberta.
yeah, a space-race would be nice. |
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Huh? You mean that The Americans would also try militarize space? By the gost of M. Tacher and the beard of A. Lincon... I never thought that the US could do anything in such a militaristic and unilateral way... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I mean aren't they always so forthcoming and willing to compromise and talk things out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ?
[ December 10, 2003, 23:42: Message edited by: JurijD ] |
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mmmm... space race... militarization... a Chinese superpower...
now what we NEED is another big push for Manifest Destiny and Imminent Domain. This time, the MOON. And after that we can have WWIV, with the sticks and stones. Just like that German ex-pat scientist-guy said. |
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you mean good ol' Al?
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A race for the moon, I seriously doubt it. I don’t think that the government or NASA will be changing their focus from Mars anytime soon. They are more likely to just sit back and say “Been there, got the shirt”. As for the Chinese I say go ahead and land baby. Since about 18% of the export trade is to the US and only about 2% import for them is from us this venture could lead to an increase in trade (technology wise) and it would tie our two countries together more. Since China has had around an 8% growth in its economy for some time it will only be a matter of decades before it assumes the place of the next world super power. My point to all of this is that with a link made from trade it could avoid the next Cold War. Having lived through and served in the armed forces during one I am in no rush to live out, or have my children live through another one.
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I think as far as the US is concerned the moon is now largely just a stepping stone and site for a base while the US moves out to bigger fish. I think the primary interest of the US is Mars with secondary interests in the asteroid belt and various of the outer planets moons.
As for the old Soviet moon rocket... yah that was a nice piece of work. Too bad it never really worked right. 30 seperate rocket thrust boosters. Proved impossible to ballance them all so the simpler US rocket worked while the nice but too complicated Soviet rocket was a miserable failure. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1883348.stm |
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But what if Chinese evacuate all US artifacts from the Moon surface and claim they are in fact the first men over there ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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China on the Moon? A damn good idea. It might finally get some of the western governments to shell out cash to put bases there. Next thing you know, remember Heinleins' story "The moon is a harsh mistress"?
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The Chinese would have a much larger undertaking to get to the moon than the US would to get back. The Chinese have largely been using old Soviet space rockets and technology. The Soviet Lunar rocket for manned flight never worked. So they are starting from scratch there. Next, the Chinese moon missions are not manned. That is a rumor. The Chinese plan to land an automated probe on the moon by 2010 and have it return with rock samples. They have themselves denied any plans of landing a man there. Not surprising considering the extreme cost and completely independent development of their own man capable lunar rocket.
Chinese deny manned mission: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2000506.stm Lets not all get so excited we get ahead of ourselves. I would have to predict that the US will return to the moon before anyone else goes. The US has been there before. The US has the experience to draw on that no one else does. And while looking at the Chinese don't forget the US are driving more and more for a renewed interest in space exploration. Both manned and unmanned. Bush plans? http://www.nbc17.com/technology/2683117/detail.html I don't much like Bush. But if he gets us back in Space and on the moon and beyond then at least I can say he did one thing right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ December 11, 2003, 02:29: Message edited by: Cyrien ] |
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[ December 11, 2003, 05:07: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ] |
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Hmm, I still say the EU (ESA) the Japaneese and the Russians (RKA) should get together for a cup of tea and some cookies:) With the Russians still having most of the know-how in rocet engineering (heck even the americans are buying 30 year old N1 engines from them to put into new titans) and some monetary injections from the EU and Japan these theree should be able to put together something worth while to challenge China and the US. The problem is not money and know-how however... today its simply not COOL to go to space anymore, at least not to the general public and the politicians just don't see how they will justify the HUGE sums of money that would be needed for a new Moon manned program. About China: They deny it? Well good that means they are hard at work on it already. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif As far I remember the Russians and the Americans denied a big part of their programs too until it was time to show them off... say a few months before launch. (Ok, J.F.K did brag about going to the moon... but that was ages ago http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) About the US going back to the Moon: I don't think It'll happen. NASA has no money, no capable rockets and by now the old know-hows are enjoying some R&R in Florida http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Building a 30 year old rocket again from scratch isn't as easy as it sounds, even if you did it once before. Ok the US has an advantage over China and any other competitors but not a very big one. I say China could catch up in 2, 3 years if they wanted to. I eman if the US was able to do it in less than 9 years in the 1960s', with todays technology I don't think China would need half that time (especially if the russians give thema hand or two... or three) About the space program in general: I think these guys got it all wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The problem is that there is no long term plan involved. What we are doing now is something similar to this: imagine you were playing a game of SE IV and you only had one small planet under your control. Then instead of colonizing your home system and spreading out you would start not by builing colony ships and building new colonies but by constructing scouts and sending them out to "visit" other solar systems. (of course you'd only be able to build 1 every year because you'd have no income-technology). I hope to god someone finds some kind of bacteria on Mars, then people will get interested in space once more and the space angencies will have 20 years time to spend spend spend http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif heheh [ December 11, 2003, 11:15: Message edited by: JurijD ] |
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I have more hope of actual life being found on Europa than on Mars. My personal view is that Mars might have some old fossilized remains but probably not anything currently alive. Europra is much more intriguing in my mind. So are several other of the outer planets moons. Mars just has the publics imagination alot more than any of those and happens to have the benefit of being much closer.
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I don't really consider the Chinese communist anymore. Anyway their goal to land on the moon shouldn't cause another space race. If they want to go then more power to them just leave the alien monolith's alone. The next race should be to exploit the resources of the moon. And that contract goes to (drum roll please) Haliburton!
.....We have chronic Haliburtontosis! |
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Strictly speaking that has never been a communist govermnet anywhere in the world. I would call the Chinese Authoritarian Socialistic Capitalism. The Soviets would have been Authoritarian Socialistic Controlled.
Really nation labels that get used today aren't accurate. For most nations you would have to break it down into government type, government citizen care, economic system. Even then you could probably make some strong arguments for throwing in a few other dividers. |
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Haliburton. The company that the current Vice President used to be a VP or some such for and that donated large amounts to the Bush campaign. The Company that got the contract to rebuild the oil pipelines in Iraq without any government bidding process to decide who would get it and that it turns out has been overstating the charges for some of the materials needed to do said rebuilding. But the Vice President and the administration weren't playing Favorites. Oh no no no. Not at all.
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Oh, yes, the true driving force behind the "War on Terror".
Here is an amusing news flash from BBC news : "An oil services firm formerly run by US Vice President Dick Cheney may have overcharged US forces in Iraq by some $61m, a Pentagon audit has found." Can anybody calculate how much a gallon of Iraqi and/or US blood cost now ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif |
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I submit for the approval of the forum that we be a little more sensitive about addressing the price of oil or freedom in any conflict, past or present in the same line. If we take a survey I bet I am not alone in having experienced the cost first hand. And yes, I am very sensative about this subject right now, can any one of you blame me? |
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As not many other reasons remain, the most obvious one - oil and money - is backed up by the dollars already made, and by the positions of those people involved and near Bush, and their relations to companies scheduled to make money in Iran. I simply do not want to repeat those long lists of names and companies, simple web searches will do for everyone really interested in the facts (start with Haliburton). I think listing here is wasted effort because I know that people wanting to believe a heroic lie you will not even be impressed by facts. |
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Pointing out the weakness in counter-arguments does not make you own argument any stronger. You have started from the position that your position is sound and obvious and, unsurprisingly, have found your way back there in the end.
I am not trying to convince you that WMD or 'freedom' were the reasons for the war. In fact I don't believe they were, I'm much more of a hawk than you might think. What I'm asking is if you can provide any real proof that the war was over money and/or oil. Just because you can't think of any better reasons doesn't mean they're not out there. You might check my Posts in the infamous Iraq thread for my own opinions on the real reasons for the war, should you be curious about other alternatives that may, or may not, have been well thought out. [edit: more damn thoughts.] Every war has vultures making money off the tragedy, sometimes they're Marshal-Planning the ruined nation back into prosperity, sometimes they're Carpetbaggers and Scallywags pushing the conquered rebels further into economic ruin. Just because someone is making money off the aftermath does not mean that's why it happened to begin with. Someone always makes money off the aftermath, it's hardly noble but pretty universal. And if someone in power makes room for himself and his friends at this table he has special access to it only indicates he is an opportunist, very human. I believe the phrase post hoc ergo propter hoc describes that argument. Surely you can come up with something better to support your position. [ December 13, 2003, 04:24: Message edited by: Loser ] |
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All I know is that none of us are able to see the entire picture, and there is a good chance that each is at least partially correct.
As to the moon... I think it was realized several years ago that we don't really need to send people to the moon, or mars, or anywhere else to learn many of the things we want to know about those places. Much of it can be done well enough robotically. Robotic units are smaller, cost less, and do not carry the problem of trying to keep people alive during the mission...except here on Earth, of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif |
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Good point Cipher. WIth the advances in computer technology and virtual reality, I think we are closer to the day when we can "visit the moon" virtually then we are actually getting there in person. I am speaking from a commercial perspective here. I could easily see people paying a few hundred dollars to sit in an ultra relistic virtual reality booth and getting to control a robotic probe in real time tooling around the surface of the moon. I think it would be pretty cool myself.
[ December 12, 2003, 15:30: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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But you may not get the complete uncensored picture in US. Here in Germany they have shown reports and films that would never have passed the censorship there. One of them showed soldiers raiding a village in the middle of the night, in search of terrorists of course, but still with brutality and against nothing else than unarmed civilians. Smashing doors and dragging people outside, deporting them away from their families and crying children, probably never to be seen again, without any legal procedure before or anything legal possible afterwards. Arrested without proof, just because of suspected resistance somewhere near. Handcuffed behind their backs with pLastic bands, black hoods drawn over their heads to deprive them of orientation, thrown on the back of a truck where they had to ride for miles on rough bumpy roads, lying helpless on their bellies. You saw the fear and terror in the faces of the civilians, and the whole scene reminded me of a nazi army raiding an occupied land - and it doesn't matter to these people if their husbands, fathers, and relatives are deported into a nazi concentration camp or to an equally lawless camp in Guantanamo. Don't get me wrong, it was not like the soldiers enjoyed their brutality, but german soldiers executing orders of a nazi general probably didn't either. And the cold and professional brutality gave the whole action an eeary, chilly atmosphere. This certainly was not an action for freedom, regardless of how it was intended, this genereated nothing else than hatred and disgust. |
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Of course, nobody can know anything for sure. The theory of relativity has never been proven also, but still it is widely taken as accepted fact. If you discard the main efforts for money as unintentional or kind of collateral damage, and single out a few isolated incidents and generalize them, you can prove everything and nothing. Remember, I didn't start this discussion. There was someone stating that this war was for freedom. You never asked him to prove his statement, why? I am sick that these obvious lies are accepted face-on, and that someone pointing out the obvious has to prove it beyond every unreasonable doubt. I *may* be wrong, but that this war is for freedom certainly *is* wrong. Last posting here, I don't want to escalate it further and I am more angry than I should be when posting. And, as I said before, it is utterly useless to point out facts to someone who wants to believe in an alternate reality. |
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Double Post
[ December 12, 2003, 16:18: Message edited by: Cyrien ] |
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And I suppose that you know that all of these people were unarmed civilians. You have all of the intel that may have been available to those that made the decision. Many things done in military actions that are 100% legitimate look horrid and awful and evil to us as civilians. Perhaps as awfull as the terror tactics being used by the enemy. As awfull as small children having bombs strapped to their chests during Vietnam and told to go play around a US barracks while it is detonated by someone the child trusted? Do things that the other side do forgive what our side does to counter it? No. But put it in its context. Because context is everything when viewing the events of a war. Putting black hoods over the heads of people that were obviously suspected of something is no where near as bad as carting off millions of people to concentration camps for systematic extermination.
Have you asked several important questions? How many of the people where carted off? All of them? I doubt it. How many such raids are there? As for those wanting to see the blood cost of Iraq before the US stepped in. This is the Iran Iraq war alone. Widespread use of chemical agents against civilian populations. Cruise misile strikes against civilian targets open bombing against civilian sites. Quote:
An estimated number of 439 foreign nationals, 118 Kuwaiti soldiers and 113 Kuwaiti civilians were killed. Kuwait’s human loss was proportionately equivalent to about 400,000 Americans or 100,000 British. The widespread landmines, estimated to be 2 million (92.4 mines per square kilometre or 1.1 mine per Kuwaiti), left many more dead and physically disabled. And Amnesty International reported: Methods of Iraqi torture included - The methods included fracturing limbs and ribs, administration of electric shocks, burning naked body parts, pouring acid into the eyes eventually leading to blindness, subjecting victims to mock trials, etc. The Iraqis denied medical care to the Kuwaitis unless they changed their nationality to Iraq, a clear case of human rights violation. [ December 12, 2003, 16:20: Message edited by: Cyrien ] |
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Whoops, didn't mean to put that here.
[ December 12, 2003, 16:27: Message edited by: Loser ] |
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Roanan wouldn’t it be nice if it was simple, then we could avoid war altogether and work on something else, such as Mars or even going back to the moon. Do I think oil and money are involved, yes, no HELL YES! I only asked that we not try to equate lost lives to oil, that would be the approximate of placing oil above lives. Some politicians may be doing that now with this war. In that case let use ask about oil and the deficit we are running up, or to elections that we can change, or even to letters that can be written to Congressmen and Representatives calling for this to stop.
Maybe in Germany you are getting reports that would not be shown here, but is your wife the one going? Are you getting more information from the news, or just altered information? Altered by the press I might add, as if they have ever given a straight picture. What information am I getting since I have for all intents and purposes a front row seat, you don’t. As far as the legality of this war, man that is an entire debate on its own, start another thread before you try to open that can of worms. Finally you say “You saw the fear and terror in the faces of the civilians” what about 911, my point is you are right. Yes I said you are right, but you are not seeing the whole picture. Did you see the faces of the Kuwait’s that where raped, beaten, and killed by Saddam’s troops? I DID! Don’t preach about the wrong doings of one people unless you have thought about the why those people are acting that way. War is violence, point blank; the Army of ANY nation is a sword, not a scalpel. Also please NEVER compare the troops of my country or any other to the Nazi’s, no one who has troops in the area at present are attempting GENOCIDE. [ December 12, 2003, 17:20: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ] |
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Good lord man, what ever happened to commies on the moon? I liked that discussion, it was very reasonable and pro-space-exploration. heck, it was even pro-multinational-space-exploration.
what the hell are we doing now, starting up another thread about the mideast? what do you people have against money and oil? i use both of those things every day, and if i had to pay as much money for my oil as the English do, well id be very upset. wars happen everywhere, for all kinds of reasons. lots of people die for all kinds of reasons. just like in 'history', the only reason you can be certain of is that someone thought that 'it was a good idea at the time.' come on guys, you're not going to convince each other of anything about the middle east, why not argue about conflict in Guyana - or can you only get worked up about what cable news feeds you, or what anti-establishment advocates are touting at the moment? Yeah, not everyone who is upset about current events is anti-establishment, but theres an entire culture of forkers out there who raise a stink no matter what is going on. give it a rest, talk about the moon. I say we nuke it preemptively, before the commies can get it. if the free world cant have the cheese, no one can. thats what i say. ever notice how the moon is RED during a lunar eclipse? didnt think that was just a coincicende, did you? blow it out of the sky, while you still can. |
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Blow it out of the sky? No, rig one side with explosives and see if we can boost it into space at Mars, or didn’t you notice it was red also? Two birds with one stone is what I say. Then we can go to Europa and eat the fish like inhabitants under the ice instead of fishing our oceans out. Let’s change the subject back to the original thread and say every one is right and call it a day.
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It is amazing how fast things can get out of hand when you bring in politics and war and greatly different view points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Wow. Did all of that get started from a single little joke about Haliburton taking over moon resources? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
I think we need a space elevator. Then we can really get rolling with the space exploration. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Blow up the moon! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Then we have massive earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and no major oceanic tides! Disaster! And do you know how much force it would take to blow the moon into Mars! OUCH. Besides... the Chinese are only planning unmanned probes... Some reports say the US is talking about a permanent presence, possibly at least partially military in nature. Communist probes v manned military base. I think Capitalism wins again! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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and that was all over FOUR YEARS AGO! |
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I took his post as being comical in nature in reference to my not wanting to go along with the suggestion of destroying the moon and Mars.
Thus the nice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif at the end. [ December 12, 2003, 20:49: Message edited by: Cyrien ] |
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Ah ok, might be I misunderstood, sorry then - I thought he was again attacking me after I already said I wanted to stop this.
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Please back this claim up with facts. I have not seen them yet, and do not care for intuitive deduction. |
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FYI it was not I that posted it was a war for freedom [Loser I think], I asked to show a little respect and not refer to oil/money and the cost of lives, in this the Last few weeks I have to spend with a wife of over a decade and three kids before she leaves for the Iraq theater for a year. [ December 13, 2003, 04:12: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ] |
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Ok so you want to be negative about it, is this idea better? We blow the moon into Mars (two birds one stone) then tow Europa into orbit to replace our missing moon and we can declare it a game reserve and charge ten bucks a head to go ice fishing, which will recoup the money spent to bLast it in the first place. Better? Of course that does not make up for the bLasted Mars, but no one is perfect.
[ December 13, 2003, 04:29: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ] |
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That doesn't work either.
Europa Mass: 4.8 x 10^22 kg Radius: 1560 km Moon Mass: 7.349 x 10^22 kg Radius: 1738 km As you can see the gravity pull is inadequate. I don't think we really want to move it in much closer either... |
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Anyone who is seriously interested in the moon topic might want to have a look at the December 2003 issue of Scientific American, specifically "The New Moon," by Jerome M. Siegel. A taste of it can currently be found at Scientific American. The article discusses reasons for further lunar exploration. A memorable statement made by the author is "The return of astronauts to the moon requires a political rationale, not a scientific justification." This may suggest why the Chinese want to go the moon. Not only is there much left to discover, they may also simply want to show the rest of the world that they can do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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I thought you would say that, so I devised part two. First off to keep the core warm (we are missing the effects of Jupiter’s gravity) we will go to the desert and pay this guy a lot of money to build a machine that will drill down to the center of Europa. Once there we will use the new “Bend Reality Bomb” (BRB) to keep the center molten and turning. Next we will designate half for the game reserve and the other half for a trash dump. In just a matter of years with all our garbage sent up there we will be able to make up for the mass difference. Don’t forget though for our ship we will need a carefully selected crew of which only two (one man one woman) will be allowed to return. Should more return we will draw lots and shot the losers.
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Actually the belief that robots are just as good or better than people has been shown to be flawed in several real life applications.
In the establishment of fake Mars bases on islands around the Arctic regions when using robot probes to explore many intersting things were missed. Whole colonies of algae on the sides of rocks above the level of the robot view. Cracks on the surface of the landscape that showed large scale water erosion were missed due to the lack of scale of the small robots. When people dressed in mock space suits went out they saw and exlpored all these things that they missed when using the robots. And of course when they were controlling the robots there was no long time delay between response and commands. To be fair you can do things with robots that you can't do with people, but the oppossite is also true and needs to be recognized. Robots are only programmed and people can think and they have totally different scales when used observationally. Robots are a tool and we should fully use them but we should never expect them to fully be able to replace humans. They are cost effective and can give us a nice and relatively detailed preliminary report. But they can't replace humans and do all the things humans would do, just as humans can't do all the things robots can do. Thus there are in fact scientific rationals for going with people. Just look at what the people who went to the moon found that no one had previously suspected. The hovering of the dust, the thickness of the regolith, etc. [ December 13, 2003, 21:30: Message edited by: Cyrien ] |
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I did not mean to suggest that robots would be be better observers than actual astronauts. Nor is it likely that any particular robot will even approach that level of awareness any time soon. Still, perhaps using a variety of different kinds of robots working together, we can achieve better results than we now do. The point is not whether people are better. There is no question about that. But, during times when money for such projects is scarse, it may well be a matter of sending robots or nothing at all.
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You know those large machines that make tunnels (chunnel and other tunnels), we need to get one of those babies up to the moon, then start boreing, of course we wont have an easy access to water to make the cement, but I am sure we can think of something to stengthen and seal the walls.
One of the things I wonder about is who owns what. I think it is whoever gets there first and is occupying it. Ohh I am sure there is some LAW on the books, but that law don't mean squat till more than one person/country is up there actually going places. I would like to see a post on the moon, though some of the books I have read say that the moon is just another gravity well. If there was a Base in one of the Lagrange points, that makes more sense (to the authors). I have read one of the big things would be to build at the pole's and make a large solar array so it could always face the sun as the moon rotates around the earth, that way they would get the max amount of energy, then I thought if the solar panels acted like a sail then we would have to have a twin at the south pole otherwise the moon would start to spin, BUT if you have a panels on the north and south, then is would be a sail then perhaps it might wobble a bit as it rotates around the earth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif |
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