Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

It helps to play "no warp points" in AIC - AI has far fewer options where to move ships and its attack is far more concentrated. Yes, AI is still brain-dead but it is less obvious in such game setup.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

In my current AIC game (no warp points) the Jaenar (sp) were ripping me a new one in the one sector where we met. The one reason I can figure why they kept coming up a bit short was lack of supplies. Once I had a system scanner up & running I noticed they were awfully short of supplies when they ended their dash for one particular planet. And of course with their mindset they going after that one planet ad nauseum....and kept coming up short.

[ December 21, 2003, 15:22: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So just add this to the list of broken promises (from the computer industry in general)? Promises like "reliability", "service" and "user friendly".

No, Gryphin, if you build a game with an AI, then it should work properly. After all programmers have been building games for a couple decades now; surely they have learned something!

This rant is not aimed at Aaron who is one of the most "aware" programmers around but at the industry in general and those who make excuses for them. Sorry Gryph, just couldn't let it lie.

Kim

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

You know I have never had this problem that you guys talk about and I just have the Demo which has a more limited AI then the full game.

Normally when an enemy fleet comes in it does attack a colony UNLESS it detects a larger defensive fleet then it thinks it can handle OR unless a battle occurs somewhere else in their space and they think they need that fleet to defend themselves.

So maybe what you consider it just being stupid is actually the AI redeploying it's fleet to protect it's self from an enemy elsewhere that you are not aware of.

Because like I said the AI acts rather smart around me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

Sure, the AI is not as good I would like. But,
playing with 3 or 4 good TDM AIs (United Flora,
EA, Aquilaeian, etc), small galaxy, high AI bonuses and 3 starting planets, usually I had challenging games.

The AI had big problems when need to take many decisions (for example, what planets protect or what planets attack). But in games with not many systems, the AI plays far better.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

Grandpa Kim,
No need to apologies. You are expressing your perception. I am not a programmer. I do remember the times I tried to write “rules” for solitaire games with miniature table top soldiers. After about 3 pages it became clear that it was unfeasible to be complete. There was always one more condition that had to be accounted for. I feel I can imagine how much code must go into any games Algorithm Intellect. Grandpa Kim, what have you done along these lines? Accusing the industry of broken promises is easy. Surely you must have something to base your perceptions on. I am interested in hearing more. Do you have some incite as to what it takes to write a superb AI? After all, I could well be wrong.

Folks,
I ask again, what do you think? How much code and how much time would it take to make the Algorithm Intellect so good you could not find enough problems in SEIV or any game to complain about? Are you willing to pay $100 dollars for a game that has an Algorithm Intellect that can challenge you? How about $200? Let’s say you are willing to pay that much, how many others out there are willing to pay that much?

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

The biggest challenge to programming an AI for a game like SE4 is the fact that it has to be able to cope with random and arbitrary changes to the data files. Games that have 0 moddability are often able to (not any guarantee) have stronger AIs because programming time does not have to be spent making it adaptable to changes to the data files.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

It has been my experience that if you play with medium/medium or medium/high the AI does put on more of a challenge.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

Gryphin, my opinion is more of a state-of-the-world perception than one directed at any specific niche of any specific industry. You have hit on one world-wide attitude: If it's too hard, it's okay to do a poor job. The other is money: do as little as possible to make as much as possible. Both cases mean "I'm breaking my promise".

I work in new housing and believe me housing and computers are running neck and neck in screwing the public.

I am not a programmer either, but I know my limits. I cannot program to my own satisfaction. Those who have chosen that profession have taken on that job. Now, gentlemen, please do your job!

But I do have some ideas about how to program an AI. I think before you get down to specific cases, you must give the AI a plan to work from. Give it goals, make it aware of common (and not so common) problems and provide general solutions. For instance running out of supplies is a common problem. The current solution is to send the ship(s) back to a resupply depot. There are at least four other solutions to that problem! This is a beginning only, but something the AI can always fall back on.

I'm sure the programmers out there can pick this to pieces... and that's the problem. Rather than say, "Damn it! There's got to be a way to make this work." they say, "It's too hard." You can take out the word programmers and replace it with any profession you like; it will still be true.

Okay, enough of that rant... and thread hijacking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

no AI yet...

It's an Algorithm Stupidity System.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

I think some people generally think that this kind of programming then it easier then it really is.

Consider for example the programming needed to create a quality chess playing AI program. There you have a game with a much simpiler rule set. Two players, 16 pieces of only 5 different kinds on an 8 by 8 grid. Most pieces have only 2 or 3 rules determining everything they are capable of doing in the game. Seems like it would be easy no? In fact programmers thought it would be easy. But it took decades of work by hundreds if not thousands of programmers world wide to come up with a program capable of beating even a moderatly skilled player. It was only in the Last few years that one could defeat the best players, and even now it doesn't beat them every time.

Se4 by comparison is much more complex. Exponentially more variables, just in the stock game, not even taking into consideration what can be done with mods. It's not suprising that the AI is much more difficult to program. It's actually suprising that it's as decent as it is.

It's no suprise that the game industry has gone towards real time strategy. With real time strategy it's much easier to give a human player a tough game because humans can't think as fast as computers can. This does wonders for masking repetative or illogical behavior by the AI. With a turn based strategy game the human player can think about their moves as long as they want before comitting to them. Remeber, computers, even the big ones, aren't smarter then humans, just faster. Make them wait on us the computer doesn't stand a real chance then.

Geoschmo

[ December 21, 2003, 23:37: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

Well I have some experience in programming AI and I have to say that there are 2 basic strategies in providing a chellenging AI for computer games.

1. You create several strategies for the AI based on what humas do and let it combine those strategies in a random way hoping it will make something smart.

2. You try and pre-program almost all possible eventualities in a game and the "AIs" responces.

For a game such as SE IV the second option is not even to be considered and the first one is mostly implemented. BUT the major drawback is that the AI doesn't learn. The biggest problem in creating an AI isn't in programming its tactics and strategies... those can be simply random combinations of several hundred pre-programmed ones.. the biggest challenge is making some kind of algorithm that EVALUATES the EFFECTIVENESS of the strategy chosen and makes changes to it in order to achieve better results.

Good results in this area have been made in the field of genetic algorithms and neural nets but the thing is that these approaches are not developed enough to take on the wast scope of decisions needed in SE IV. People tend to underestimate the human brain when it comes to AI. Remember we have something like 10^13 neurons in our brain and more than 10^16 connections between them... thats a lot of "adaptable code". And we had a couple of billion years to get where we are now. It would be silly to expect us to pre-program something even remotely so versatile on a couple hundred megs of CD space...

I think that the future of AI in games such as SE IV is to get the AI on aditional CDs apart from the Game itself. The AI could be (in theory) developed if you put several million adapatable and self-changing genetic algorithms to compete against each other on many millions of games... then eventually you'd get something that is worth comparing to humans. But noone can really answer how long this process would take or how powerful the computers would have to be. But for now its the only way as we are not intelligent enough to write the program ourselves... but with some luck and enough processing power we could make it happen randomly.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

I agree, Geo, but only partially. Being a programmer myself, I know how difficult it would be to programm a real AI. To be as creative as a human, as resourceful, considering all options and possible strategies derived from whole sets of options, thinking ahead a few turns and choose the best way to act for multiple units as a strong, simultaneously striking force, persuing a final goal consisting of numerous single targets and objectives - impossible with the technology at hands right now.

AI able to ACT like a human - ok, lets put that aside. But what I, too, consider as "not doing a job" is really *stupid* AI that does not even know how to REACT properly. There are a lot of simple problems - own fleet out of supply, enemy fleet near own planet, enemy planet in friendly system, etc - that the current AI has no real Algorithm for to cope with. Instead, it seems that each turn each fleet decides anew what to do, independent of all other fleet actions, unaware of longtime major problems and the overall global situation but reacting to nearby local events happening Last turn, mixed with a good shot of the random generator. This could have been done better in nearly all games I know. Though this also is not simple - for small companies like MM it might just be too expensive, but I cannot accept excuses like this from big companies obviously spending like 100 times more money on graphics and design than on AI programming.

Yes, it might be possible to play a challenging game vs. the AI. But this is always happening like an elderly grandpa engaging in hand-to-hand combat against a young strong brutish bully - and winning finally. Looks challenging, is not. And advices like "if you want it more interesting, tie the grandpa one hand on the back and blindfold him" may sound interesting, but he still is winning, and this just makes it more ridiculous.

Thank god (and Geo!) for PBW !!!

The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

When I started playing SE4 three years ago, I found that it was a game with great concept, mechanics and customizability. However, the AI was a joke then. A couple of weeks later, Aaron made a significant improvement to AI agressiveness, which made the game playable in single player.

But since then... nothing. Or very little. In single player, your adversaries are still if not braindead, then at least seriously deranged when it comes to their military campaigns. Aaron and the modders did a very good job improving AI resource management and building programs. Mods like "AI campaign" have taken this a step further, giving the AI "unfair" advantages to further improve its strength. However, this approach does not yet solve the fundamental problem of the SE4 AI. It is like an already very muscular bully who gets some more anabolics. Beefed up like this, he comes running at you and you think "oh,my, it's over now for me", but 3 meters in front of you, he tuns around and runs somwhere else.

This is excatly the behaviour of the SE4 AI. It just does not follow through. In my current "AI campaign" game, again and again I had 30+ Jreaner ships entering my border systems which were virtually undefended. I think "oh,my, it's over now for me", but 3 squares in front of my planet, his fleet turns around and leaves through the next wormhole for somwhere else. This happens again and again. Basically, if you are not extremely unlucky with your starting position, the AI never offers a challenge.

I cannot imagine that it would be so hard to change this behaviour. Basically you would have to somehow drastically increase the priority of an ennemy target, once it has been acquired (thus only very, very urgent new threats would have the AI abandon its previous targets). The current AI behaviours largely decreases gaming pleasure in single player. I imagine, that it is probably to late to expect Aaron to again tackle the AI in SE4, but I just hope, it will be significantly improved in SE5.

Anybody any thoughts on this (same experience, different experience, infos on SE5 AI, ...)

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, as far as Se4 is concerned, it not only seems that way, that's exactly the way it is, except for the random generator part. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ December 22, 2003, 00:19: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

just out of curiosity can anyone name a turn based strategy game with a good AI?
(AI's that can win by just boosting their resources, research etc way higher than the human player don't count)

Of course there are a few simple things that could be done to improve the SE4 AI. One I can think of is for the AI to recognize when it runs into a minefield and not do it 20 turns in a row.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

My thoughts on AI
AI = Algorithm Intellect

The issue behind Algorithm Intellect is the amount of time and money it does take to code it. You mentioned one situation that has occurred. We have all seen bizarre behavior on behalf of the Algorithm Intellect in SEIV. How many lines of code would it take to cover that one situation? How much are you willing to pay for it? I feel the game is a very fair price for what it provides. I fear an Algorithm Intellect able to consistently challenge a human would cost 1000s of dollars.

Hope this helps.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

Galactic Civilizations has a fairly good AI.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

Try playing the AI on high and in a big universe where the Comps have enough time to build their fleets like you do. And start at absolute low tech and with the medium resources and the like. That should give you a challenge because it has given me a challenge and an enjoyable experiance in almost every demo game I've played of SEIV.

Of course some races seem to be stupid like for example the EEE which always underarm their ships compared to EVERYONE else as well as have inferior shields and armor to just about every other race I've ever seen play against them.

I mean this one time I saw a fleet of Jreanor controlled by the AI attack a LARGER fleet of EEE ships and come out victorious!!!

I mean is it just me who thinks the EEE are mentally slow when it comes to arming their warships for war and not just a little girl slapfight?

But there are things like TDM which I am not quite sure if all it does is improve the AI or if it screws around with absolutely everything. Could someone please tell me exactly how TDM works, does it just improve the AI or does it as I stated above screw with building and science and other stuff like that?

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

TDM is an AI mod. It does not change the stock data.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

I agree that SE IV is a very rich and therefore complicated game and therefore a good AI will be difficult to programm. But from the business aspect a good AI will be a good sales argument for a game. And if you analyse the major mistakes the AI makes you could improve it considerably.
Just one example: in the decision making of the AI one point seems IMO always to be crucially underated: the distance! The AI sends colonizers half way across the quadrant while a colonizable planet is one move away. Probably because the planet value and atmosphere type has absolute priority. The same for attack locations: undefended enemy colonies are in reach but the AI sends the entire fleet on a mission to the opppsite edge of the empire for reasons I can only speculate.
Make all these decision processes of the AI moddable and MM can leave most of the work to us! But that's probably for SE V.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

I think the "attackers turning around and leaving" phenomenon tends to be the AI Supply Minister, which sends all ships back for supply as soon as they get to about 60% supply, regardless of distance to a resupply depot. A tweak to AI empires' supply abilities would probably tend to help them out with that, a lot.

Programming an effective expert system for such a complex game is a huge task. Making it deal with mods is even trickier.

Moreover, expecting an AI for such a game to prove challenging to smart veteran human strategy game players, even after they have a lot of play experience, without giving the AI advantages, is very unrealistic.

PvK

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

I would love a more challenging AI espcialy since I am a solitare player when I play at all. There is a second reason I play 5 X games.
eXploration - I want to know what is beyond that next warp point / black area / mountain. What is he enemy hiding? What....?
Run the Graphics Pac with Fyron's System Mod, send your frigate the I. M. Hapless out to explore and kiss it and its crew good bye.

CIV II
Can you remember the relentless Zulus that would attack the closest enemy even if it was on a fortifed hill top defended by catapults? They could have easily by passed it and captured the city producing those catapults. Still they were a fun feisty bunch. Then again there was the time they rained nukes on my cites and we had not even met!!!!!! Talk about pissed!

[ December 22, 2003, 17:19: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

Explore is the first of the 4 Xs. What is the 5th you mention? That marketing hype of MOO3? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

eXwife
(girlfriend / life / etc...)

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

Moo3 was trying to hype eXperience. Which you got from Moo3. The experience of a poorly coded game. There were beginner programmer bugs in that code. Sigh.

Anyway, having actually put more than a small amount effort into studying AI and investigating strategy playing AIs, it is more than difficult to make a really good one.

The fundamental rule of programming is, you have to know how to do something before you can make a program do it. So, can you write out, in english (or language of your choice) how to win a SEIV game.
Then, try to write a counter strategy for your first one.
Ad naseum.

Humans are much too smart.

That all being said, I have a question. Is there a way to break into SEIV's AI at the coding level?
Someone in an earlier post said that TDM does not change the data files. Sooo, how is that done? Enquiring minds want to know.

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Figured it out. Data fixes only. Sigh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

"Data files" refers to the files in the Data folder. TDM changes the AI files, in the various race folders. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Although, I did lie, because TDM does modify the Formations.txt data file, adding several new formations. But it does not change the nature of the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh yeah them and the Mongols, a nice bunch of jerks that would attack the nearest city time and time again and would send fighters bombers, missiles, infantry and everything else they pulled up to attack you.....even if your city was invincible to them :-) I loved blowing their armies up. Though I didn't like their use of nukes :-(

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The best eXploration element in SEIV and, heck, any other 4X games for me is a no warp game in AIC with AI bonus. Every time I open warp point with 100 strategically located satelites and The Home Fleet on stand-by I know I might be opening a can of worms that will eat all my people alive ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

What is the "AIC"?
thanks

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

Exactly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif No-warp AIC games are very engrossing.

Basic idea behind AIC is to give AI special facilities and components to compensate for its deficiencies. It is still not on par with humans of course but is probably best we can get before SEV comes out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

While forcing you to play in a very slow Proportions-like setting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: The AI... when will ìt earn its "I"?
 

AIC is the Artificial Intelligence... erh I mean the Algorithm Intellect Campaign. It is a mod designed to make the AI a much tougher opponent, and there are quite a few changes similar to Proportions. (For example, population is *much* harder to transport, your homeworld is a resource powerhouse while your colonies don't produce much and so on)

So when you are playing with no-warp points you can open the Pandora Box when using these shiny new warp openers and pave the way for a proper invasion of your systems by a very aggressive race. Or you may very well find "Orion", a system with several huge breathables planets. Or both. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif