A little disappointed...
 

Well, I finally broke down and bought SEIV: Gold and I liked it initially. It was really easy to get into, seemed to be very rich in options and I definitely had that all too rare these days feeling of "just one more turn...promise!" However, after playing for a few hours and trying multiple games, I'm beginning to think that the AI is very bad. This surprises me because all that I had read about the game seemed to indicate that the AI was very good.

I keep getting weird AI behavior in my games though and its making it pretty difficult to get very far in the game. For instance, some races constantly offer to make trade agreements and then they break them a few turns later for no reason...then they re-offer a few turns after that. Also, upon first contact, a races first action is to destry my colonies, and after they do that, they still have a warm or positive attitude towards me on the race screen. Also, many of the races are too often xenocidal...I mean they just mercilessly attack for no reason...you can chalk it to it just being in the nature of that particular race, but it has happened with many of them and with ones that aren't described as being that hostile...its getting to the point where its no longer fun...

Just my .02

Semper Fi

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Wait for SEV or play PBW.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Have you played the TDM mod? It dramtically improved the Ai.

To be honest, making good AI, for any game, is an art form that has not yet been mastered by any game company. The best AI are AI's that can be modded and have the scope to change or alter just about anything. SEIV does provide one of the best foundations for modding AI that I have ever seen in any game.

The AI is basically a scripted program that the computer runs. Granted base Ai for seiv is not that hot, but it is still better than most if not all games of this type that have been released resently.

I can see a day very soon where games will have totally customizable AI at a level and scope that will boggle the mind. The problem with that is you will more likely than not, need a masters degree in programing to be able to take advantage of this. Another possiblity is learning AI. IE you as a human player, have your game recorded, and then compared to other successful players, and that forumla of game play is then optioned for an AI.

The better we become the better the AI becomes. GalCiv and Stars Super Nova have this, but only Gal Civ has gone to market with it.

The problem is, people cheat. This compermises the data the AI has available to it. So we are again back to square one.

Try playing a game with the bonus set to HIGH using the TDM. The TDM Mod has all of the original races and a few others.

Good luck, and by all means come join us at PBW.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Thanks for the post Atrocities...I will try the TDM mod...

I understand the difficulty with creating good AI, and its not that I expect the AI to act like Rommel or Patton...I just wish the AI could act more rationally...doesn't need to be a master strategist, just act rationally...

Semper Fi

Re: A little disappointed...
 

While I agree that PBW is a great way to play SE4, I've seen quite a few bizarre behaviours from human players, too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: A little disappointed...
 

At least humans are random in their nonsensicalness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

an unpredictable AI is tougher then a predictable one, You don't want opponents to be passive, push overs or predictable. If they trash you, declare war and trash them back http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif by all means, try the mods but be warned some of them have genecidal races who just plain don't like you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif and some will just drive you nuts. Don't expect the expected or for them to be predictable, if you do, your in for a short game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Enjoy, experiment, also you might want to change your initial settings, don't use neutral races in set up, set your settings to med or high, low or med ai races as well....

just some ideas mac

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Your main concern seems to be with diplomacy, where all AIs I know of are awful at best. (At worst they are easily exploited, cheated and abused) You may consider to leave diplomacy aside (meaning there will be no trades, treaties, or other things along these lines) with the AI, hoping the AI won't attack you when you are not watching.

Otherwise, if you do like diplomacy, you should really play PBW as only humans can be interesting in this field. When playing the AI you cannot quite grovel, bully, threaten or bluff, while an human will respond accordingly. And good luck for asking an AI to withdraw these colonizers from your systems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

And make sure to get the latest patch for the game. As far as I know, 1.84 is the most recent patch. That, plus the TDM mod, should make the game more emjoyable. I would still stick with the diplomacy, because if you get a treaty where they give you resources and research points, then you get those for free as long as you have good relations with that race. Doesn't hurt to have a mighty fleet, because a race never asks you why you're building up near his borders.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

I was ready to stop playing SE:IV for a while (I've played it for years now...) until I installed the TDM Mod.

Totally different beast! The AI is greatly improved...

Re: A little disappointed...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, the TDM really improve the AIs. But be prepared to see again aggressive AIs (yes, they will attack you without reasons too).
I did 3 AI scripts and honestly prefer this way: is more easy to take advantage from the friendly AIs (for example, exchange 10 FG without engines or weapons, for 1 Colony Ship!).
As was wrote here, the diplomacy with the AIs is not the strong side of the game...

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Master Belisarius...

I was just going to post that with the TDM mod, the AI is still super-aggressive! I haven't played much with TDM installed, but I don't notice too much of a difference.

I thought that the AI in MOOII was very good. I wish the enemy AI and diplomacy in SEIV would be similar to the way it was in MOOII...I won't even mention MOOIII for obvious reasons...

Semper Fi

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Hmm. Most people complain AI is not aggressive enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It is impossible to please everyone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

BTW, did you change "ai uses mega evil empire" to FALSE in settings.txt as suggested ? That alone should make AI more faithfull in the endgame.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Oleg...not aggressive enough? Are you kidding? I am yet to meet an AI empire where they haven't attacked me almost immediately after first contact and then have murderous feelings towards my empire...and this is for no reason...also, I give gifts almost always, and even if the AI says something friendly in response, they still attack me on the next turn or two...It doesn't get more aggressive than that...

Semper Fi

Re: A little disappointed...
 

I think Oleg was refering to the follow-through, not the initial declarations of war.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

I think it is quite close to Sci-Fi canon to treat aliens as a thread and go to the war. Every time humans make first contact, some sort of war happens. AFAIK, only Vulcans did not try to enslave/wipeout us. Well, may be Centurians too, but Minbari rectified it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Oh, in AIC mod too many AIs are peacenics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I have to provoke them to make game more interesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">a vicious, space-traveling horde has more chance of stopping at the asteriod belt than earth. and if they want to get rid of us, they'd probably pick a worthless asteriod and drop it down the gravity well. that is, if the're 'rational'. being particularly vicious is the only reason i can think of for them to attack us.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">'Drop' is not quite an accurate description. 'Shove' would do better.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Aliens always attack on TV because if they didn't it would be boring to watch...come on man...this is a game where there is much more to explore than just war...there should be races out there in the game that are peaceful and not prone to waging war...there should also be races out there that are not too good at waging it either...they all seem to kick major butt...

Re: A little disappointed...
 

It was my experiance that
Most of the AI were designed to be the best they could be.
Some are much more peace oriented than most. I can think of 3. I am not going to name them so I don't spoil it for anyone else.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Jarhead increase your political savvy, for some reason this seems to make other races more peaceable towards you.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you want some peaceful races try some of this list (from the TDM).

EEE (not the standard, is too easy to defeat!)
Praetorians
Vaxin
EA

Think all of them are very peaceful (although the Vaxin and EA sometimes could be aggressive too).

But man, I'm f***k genocidal and like to be at war against all of them and crush every planet... then, never felt love for those stupid guys! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

You see...I would like to wage war too, but not until I've had a chance to prepare for it for a bit...I usually play large cluster maps, and I always make first contact before I've expanded outside of my initial cluster...I usually make first contact with two races one from each cluser that is adjacent to mine...after first contact they immediately start hostilities making it impossible to get anywhere...

Maybe there is something I'm doing wrong in my initial game settings...like maybe I'm inadvertantly giving the computer players some kind of bonus...

Semper Fi

Re: A little disappointed...
 

This will help pacify the aliens.

Open the Empire window -- F11
Open the Options window
Scroll to the bottom and uncheck "Claim all systems colonized" (paraphrased)

The AI's are set up to confront any empire that claims the same systems they do. Right now I am successfully colonizing in the Jraener's home system but since I haven't claimed that system, they're not the least upset, in fact they just offered a military alliance. Goofy, I agree, but that's how the AI works.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

I play Huge Clusters, Jarhead, with the max number of AI (not Neutrals, no scrubs). I can often take over a whole cluster on my own at the start.

Try going into Settings.txt and changing the Max Systems up to 255 (no higher, that's the max).

Also try FQM, and generate not-all-warp-points-connected maps until you get one where all the systems are connected. Those are the best.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you do this, you also need to get a bigger SystemNames.txt file. The stock file only has about 140 names.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

FQM has one with 56068 names.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">see, Fyron, it's the little things like this that make people think your an alien. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Ok... compiling lists from various games, web sites and random name generators makes me an alien? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

nope. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Maybe it's more of a "My SystemNames.txt is bigger than your SystemNames.txt" issue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Or it is more of a "don't want to see the same names twice, ever" issue.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Well, I'd hit up the random name generators again--you only have 219 max system games (at the most) until they have to repeat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Haven't played anywhere near that many games, so I still have a long way to go. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

OTOH, some of the names are so similar as to cause confusion. Had that problem with the Starfury map I made (uses FQMD settings)

Re: A little disappointed...
 

You want to go through and find all those similar names? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Well, just for my map, and keeping in mind my standard of confusion is lower for Starfury:

Alpha Sigma
Alpha Sgr

Pi'Ani
Pi'Ashi

Those are the closest. The rest I edited out and/or were only confusing in a double take sort of way.

Re: A little disappointed...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, but being as such that your from outer space does kinda qualify you as being an alien. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Yeah, this from the guy that churns out shipsets like there is no tomorrow when he is in the mood... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: A little disappointed...
 

Well...lets get back to the point of the thread now that its been highjacked! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I finally made first contact with a race that wants to be my friend...they've been polite and friendly since day one. They honor trade and research alliances, but they never seem to honor a military alliance. I'm holding my own in a brutal war against the Rage Collective, and the race that I'm allied with keeps refusing to honor its military alliance by attacking or declaring war on the Rage. Is this because the Rage is too powerful? Or is it another area in which the AI is lacking...

Semper Fi

Re: A little disappointed...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From what I've seen, rarely do AI races declare war on your enemies when you have a Military Alliance, or even a Partnership treaty. Basically, the only good they are over Trade and Research Alliances is the ability to resupply at your ally's Resupply Depots. It could also be that the AI believes the Rage are too powerful to attack. Maybe if you were at war with a wimpy empire, your ally wouldn't hesitate to go to war with them.

You also should look at the possibility that your ally also has an alliance with the Rage. In that case they probably wouldn't declare war on them just because you asked them to.

I'm by no means an expert, but I hope this helps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Renegade 13

Re: A little disappointed...
 

You shouldn't be too disappointed that they won't agree to attack. They could just as easily say they will attack (and get your hopes up) and never do it. Of course, they could say they won't attack and then do it anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif The AI's responses to diplomacy are very...limited. They rarely have any short-term effect on the game, let alone long-term. Diplomacy usually only is a big deal when you're roleplaying your race (one of those stupid honorable Evil Overlord types, for example) or when you're in a MP game (such as on PBW).

[edit]Oh, and Fyron, my SystemNames.txt just jumped over 5 million names. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ December 28, 2003, 17:24: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

Re: A little disappointed...
 

No one in a sane mind would provoke Rage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Your ally is no idiot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


There is entry in AI_politics.txt file that determine how soon it will agree to a new treaty. Some AIs do it faster than others. Ask them later.
Yes, AI diplomacy is very limited. We shall wait for SEV.