Are We Evil?
 

Ok so your the ruler of a vast stellor empire with enemies all around you. You have commanded your forces to obliterate an enemy planet. Your ships defeat the planets orbital defense and anihilate the planets Weapons Platforms. All you have to do now is drop troops but instead you glass the population from orbit killing 16 Billion people.

Does that make you Evil? Think about it, if that was a real planet, those were real beings, would not what you have just done be considered a crime against the galaxy? Whole sale extermination of the population of an entire planet?

I guess the next logical question would be if you enjoyed exterminating that planets population. Well did you? I hate to say it, but yes, I loved blowing those insects to hell. I mean how dare they be on my planet before I ever even knew it exsisted. What the hell, this is a four X game with on of the X meaning Exterminate.

But if in some far off distant reality those were real living breathing beings, how would you feel about killing them in mass?

The order to commite genocide against an entire planet is an order that I could not give. But then again, who knows the circumstances. What if that planet was filled with 16 billion vampires who have been feeding on your worlds for centuries, then wiping them out would only be the right thing to do. Then again what if they are a planet of women and children vampires? Would the same apply?

Would we as a leader of our own empire not be as evil as those we kill by killing them?

To be an effective leader is to made a decision and never question it. Decisiveness is a weakness that one can not aford when ruling a vast stellor empire. So in the end, burn them or conqeur them it makes little differance. Glass them and your an evil SOB, drop troops and loose them and your a poor leader and will be ousted. Given those alternatives, the Vampires would fry.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

The boundaries of human morals would claim that as evil, but more logically/technically sometimes its the only way to go. Of course, not that i'd advocate doing that in real life http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif but face it, it is far more effective.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

And that, Bug my bug, was the decision the US made over Hiroshima... (maybe not Nagasaki, I'm unsure). They projected casualties from an Operation Olympic, compared to testing out the first "real tough toys for real tough boys".

The Japanese fried and we're still discussing it.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

I think you may recall, I won't glass a planet. I will only capture them.

I find even though it is no more than a bunch of 1s an zeros I still can't get into it.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

I don't want to get into another A-bomb discussion, thank you.

As to the original question, what is evil ? I had a relative died of cancer recently. Does it makes cancer cells evil ? But humans are not mindless cells, you say ! Are you sure ? Even if humans have free will - it will be debated forever - does that makes humanity as whole a conscious force for good ? Or are our moral dilemas no more than Brownian motion of tiny cells in a suicadal cancer devouring the life on the planet ?

Re: Are We Evil?
 

ask someone who has done it for real...
...ask the Alien Agent...

Re: Are We Evil?
 

I like to avoid genocide, just for economic reasons. I've never played it Gryphin's way, but I may have to try that soon.

In a TDM/FQM game recently I was trying to beat the Rage down enough that they'd surrender. Yeah, the Rage. Surrender. So that didn't happen. But in the process I tried to take their homeworld in Tac combat (High-Med TDM is being difficult, so I'm using Tac)

It had 16 billion on it, and I had two ships of one hundred troops each. Just like expecting the Rage to surrender once I had ten times their score I expected that many troops could take a homeworld. Well, that many troops can't take and FQM homeworld.

The first ship dropped it's troops and they just went away. Dang militia ate them and asked for seconds.

So spent the next twenty-two turns pelting the world with PPB from orbit. This killed about twelve billion Rage, but allowed my troops to take the planet. The Resupply Depot survived the orbital bombardment, so I got just about everything I wanted.

Gryph, would you practice the wholesale slaughter of billions prior to a troop landing?

Re: Are We Evil?
 

in one game i play an empire who only gas. as it is their culture and background to do that.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

What we'd do in a game, and what we would do in real life are two entirely separate things. Just because at times I tell my ships to bombard an alien homeworld with APB, doesn't mean I could do anything like that in real life. I couldn't plan to kill someone, not unless they had done something absolutely horrible to me, or my family and friends. Then I would kill them. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because you'd do something in a game, doesn't mean you'd do it if given the choice, in real life.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

This topic from a guy whose chosen name is 'Atrocities.' Twinges of guilt? Or has he just been smoking mother nature and contemplating his navel?

Are chess players evil for playing chess?

[ January 03, 2004, 16:05: Message edited by: Cipher7071 ]

Re: Are We Evil?
 

What if it was a planet full of your people, whom were under-producing and whom were drains on your social security system? Would aliviating a tax burden via planetary napalm be considered evil?

Is killing your friend different from killing your enemy? In the end, they are both still dead.

How about if it was a fully developed porportions homeworld, but the whole place was like Los Angeles. Would you be heralded as a hero?

What if you shot down an unarmed ship? Is killing five people or one hundered people different from butchering fifty billion? Why? Do all their souls cry out against you, or do you fear some sort of karmic reprisal from the universe?

What if you killed a family of mice whom were trying to eek out their survival in your home, after you displaced their natural habitat? What about ants? bacteria in the kitchen sink? How far down the food chain do you have to go to kill, before you feel okay about it?

Who judges our actions, and on what basis? Are there some sort of universal laws that say we should all hold hands and sing? Are other life forms, like lower "animals" held to these laws? How about plants? What about some hypothetical alien culture? What seperates a green skinned guy on another planet, from a brown skinned guy on another continent? what seperates him from the guy next to you?

Wars are fought over land and property. All of them. If wars were not to be fought, and we were all to hold hands and sing, we would have had to stop expanding as a culture, long before the agricultural revolution. Do we villify progress to prevent killing, or justify murder to further our civilization?

Re: Are We Evil?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I don't feel OK about killing spiders. Most of the people around me, when they see a spider they immediately step on it. I can't do that. I've asked people to stop but they won't listen. I feel bad everytime I see that happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Are We Evil?
 

nope.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

Some good RL points but regarding the game, I'm like Gandalf. Even in my KOTH games I try to capture not slag. I just don't feel right about killing billions, after all, that Emperor leading my people is my alter ego.

I would like to see a HUGE penalty for slagging planets in SEIV. Say 5% to anger for the first slagged planet in a turn, after that 20%!! ... for both the aggressor and defender. Hmm, perhaps only 5% each instance for the defender...

Re: Are We Evil?
 

Mod the happiness types. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (happiness.txt)

Re: Are We Evil?
 

Hmm.... to bring this more into the context of SE as a game, does this thread amount to a vote for better population AI? Should there be 'morale' effects on your population for enemy killed as well as your own? Should AI Empires take notice of how you conduct your wars and react accordingly (different settings for different races, of course).

I'd like to see a subtler system for handling conquered populations, myself. It shouldn't be so simple as leaving a few troops on planets with 'non-native' races and building some special 'population control' building (UPC or whatever). There ought to be unrest and espionage/sabotage problems and outright rebellions when war with the 'empire' of origin is raging.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

from the file:

Peacefull:
Any Enemy Planet Captured := -30

Bloodthirsty:
Any Enemy Planet Captured := -50

Neutral:
Any Enemy Planet Captured := 20

so the neutral player is actually happier to glass the buggers.. I would change it so that the peacefull player gets a large bonus for caputring, the bloodthirsty player gets a large penalty for capturing, and the netural player does not care so much.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

Bloodthirsty != Genocidal

I would think that a bloodthirsty race would be happier invading, as they get to kill the enemy themselves, and actually see the blood.

More happiness options would alleviate the lack of specificity in the 3 stock happiness types... there are a lot more options than just those 3.

[ January 03, 2004, 22:12: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Are We Evil?
 

But does the AI engine notice these settings? I don't think it does, so you would only find this useful in a 'human only' game. AIs would be prone to glass planets any time they didnt have troops available.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

I never glass worlds (on purpose) never, I don't care if they are those slimy drushocka or the watery sargetti..... Well unless it's those damned EEE.... Then I glass first and never bother to ask questions. When the Vinshran Holy War is over, not a single EEE shall be left standing! Stand beside me in my divine quest to exterminate the EEE or fall before me!!!!!!!!

Re: Are We Evil?
 

I would much rather have slaves then crispy fried corpses.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

Even though it is only a game, I dislike killing enemy populations and will do so only under circumstances that would justify it (to me) in real life.

For example, in one game against the AI those evil Sergetti had their home system adjacent to mine, which under AI rules meant they considered my home system to belong to them. For at least a year or more of game time we fought over control of the wormhole between our systems, but a couple of times they managed to break a fleet through into my system, and each time they glassed one or two of my colony worlds, and many millions of my people died. I was hoping to get troops built to invade and conquer their system, but had a long way to go on the necessary research and construction for such an effort. Then a Sergetti fleet broke through and would have glassed my homeworld but for the valiant fleet that fought and destroyed them in orbit. That was the Last straw - I decided that it wasn't right to risk my own people any further while working toward a conquest, so without giving them any chance to build up new fleets, I jumped my defenders through the wormhole and nuked their planets down to the bare bedrock. And you know what? I think that would have been the right action in a similar situation in real life, too.

But I remember that situation so well because it is a rare thing for me to be forced into such action. My main enjoyment in the game is exploring and building, not attacking and killing. If they had left me alone, I would have left them alone. If we had had a bit more elbow room between us, I might have gotten a tech advantage sufficient to hold them off until I could move in with troops and show them the benefits of joining my empire.

But sometimes ya just gotta glass 'em.

SpaceBadger

Re: Are We Evil?
 

slaves can revolt. charred corpses cant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

But realistically, im not for glassing planets either -- it has a ring of wrong for me. However, my roleplay races are rather cold-blooded (bugs and lizards), so RP-wise, for me, every option is good.

[ January 04, 2004, 00:42: Message edited by: Taera ]

Re: Are We Evil?
 

They bombed Nagasaki also. I believe it saved lives compared what attack on Japan islands would have costed. However, I think I would not have bombed cities first, but made a show in some nearby place where their emperor could see the result and told that next one will be dropped in Tokyo. I am not sure if I would have the courage to order such bombing.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have a method for dealing with revolting populations. I park a fleet of warships over the planet and threaten to turn them all in walking fire balls. It takes a few months, but eventually the rebels are captured and .... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ... placed in protective custody until we can let them go... *caugh* our the air lock *caught*.

I think that Troops on a planet should not count toward cargo on the planet. At least not small troops.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">what if they were battered and breaded, and then dipped in a nice honey dijon sauce?

Re: Are We Evil?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">what if they were battered and breaded, and then dipped in a nice honey dijon sauce? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No thanks man. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Are We Evil?
 

From the standpoint of the game, there are several AI races who have gladly glassed my planets, and I take no pity on those. I have at times gotten along fairly well with others, at least until my growth becomes astonishing and I turn into a vile race. I suppose I'm just new enough to mods that I have yet to have one of my planets captured.

From an economic standpoint, I see that capturing planets increases one's score more quickly than glassing and recolonizing them. I have not yet tried capturing an Ork planet, but I suspect it will be costly in more ways than one.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So use troops that have 1 weapon and the rest shields. Lots of larger transports. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Are We Evil?
 

the most efficient way to design troops, unless you want to go really crazy and have only one ECM and one sensor per stack, is to make two kinds of troops: one with all shields and an ECM module, and one with all guns and a sensor module.

load them in the transport so that the shield troops are the first down, and take fire first, and you should be able to capture darn near anything. especially if you are attacking with two whole transports of troops, and the first transport contains nothing but shield troops, and the second contains nothing but gun troops.

Or, if you are playing Porportions, a thousand infantry can conquer danm near anything, and isnt that hard to produce. In fact, I dont usually bother researching troops in Porportions, unless im playing against a person.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

Wiping out civilian populations for covenience and fun? I'd say that counts as evil.

Worse, is programming a game where it happens on accident sometimes. Malfador is extra-evil! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: Are We Evil?
 

how about blowing ten millon people out an airlock into the stratosphere, just to make room for one million people whom breathe the right atmosphere?

or blowing up a planet full of people, because you want to rebuild it as a different type or atmosphere?

Re: Are We Evil?
 

Loser you are correct. I have never taken a world with 16 Billion beings. Someone here a bouts did the nubmers on it. It takes a lot more than 200 troops.

Maybe someone can set up a senario to test it.

Re: Are We Evil?
 

meh, those are your own people, who cares?

Re: Are We Evil?
 

Evil! Evil! Evil!