[OT] Nerds
 

I stumbled across an interesting essay, discussing the culture of the American high school, and specifically the (mis)treatment of the group known as 'nerds'. The essay posits a cause to this, and extends this to certain other social Groups. I thought maybe some on this forum would be interested.

link

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

Why would anyone in a sci-fi 4X game forum be interested in an essay about nerds? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

Disregard my prior post. I just read this article, and it hits the nail on the head re: the problems with American public schools. This guy has obviously put his philosophical and sociological training to good use.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

you know, as i was reading that, i realized that both Canada and the US have no national purpose as far as i can tell.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

I really dug that article.

Thanks.

[ January 05, 2004, 20:09: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

Very good article.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

i've read the article before, and i tell you, its true. i experienced (and still relatively am) what is described there, and lived thru it. call me a nerd, i no longer care, for im happy the way i am ^_^ and i realized that unpopularity originates in thoughts of unpopularity. wont go into details.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

most of his stuff is total unadulterated crap, with the singular purpose of eliciting emotional response without any kind of solid premise or point, but Jon Katz ran a good serise of articles on Slashdot shortly after the Columbine shootings. Basically a collection of letters from students about problems and persecution they faced in school.

http://features.slashdot.org/article...thread&tid=146

It turned into a ten part series, the first of which is linked above. I think they were all together in some easy to browse format somewhere, but all I can find now are the original slash articles.

http://features.slashdot.org/article...thread&tid=146

http://features.slashdot.org/article...thread&tid=146

http://features.slashdot.org/article...thread&tid=146

http://features.slashdot.org/article...thread&tid=146

http://features.slashdot.org/article...thread&tid=146

http://features.slashdot.org/article...thread&tid=146

http://features.slashdot.org/article...thread&tid=146

http://features.slashdot.org/article...thread&tid=146

http://features.slashdot.org/article...thread&tid=146

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

Don't know about unadulterated crap Puke. I agree some of the 20/20 rear view vision stuff sounded false, but overall the premise strikes me as true.

I was a nerd 30 plus years back and it still seems to describe me and my friends.

Liked the slashdot articles as well. Useful Posts.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

I don't' think Puke was referring to the essay that started the thread, but rather to the author of the materiel that Puke linked.

I did say I like this essay, and I do, but I have found a contradiction.

The author says that kids are put in school because they are useless to the modern world. This is believable, in fact I like it.

He says they are useless to the modern world because the specialized modern world requires years more of training before its workers are of any use. Sounds nice.

But then he also says, many times, that there is no point to schooling, and that it accomplishes nothing. I am somewhat inclined to agree with this but...

This would seem to indicate that kids are being kept out of the workforce so that they can receive training that they are not receiving. While this may be the case, it is a contradiction of reason that the author does not bring to light. I am mildly disappointed.

But I do find great 'personal truth' in the essay nonetheless.

I would also like to point out that I am a great supporter of public school for a number of reasons. One worth mentioning is that I have met many, many products of the homeschool system, but I have yet to meet one that qualifies as 'adjusted'. The best I found was one who seemed okay for about a week. And he beat out the runner-up but about thirteen days, eighteen hours. He also turned out to be incapable of real communication (though he was a damn good mimic, best job I've seen done by a man).

If you're homeschooled and you think you're adjusted, don't take this personally. It doesn't apply to you, I have met you. Relax.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

Having gone through the American public school system recently, I can tell you that it doesn't really teach the students that much. I could have easily finished grades 9 thru 12 in one school year, if I was simply given the opportunity to go through the material at my own pace. Large parts of it could be thrown out entirely, becuse it was complete and utterly useless crap (eg. "Social Studies" classes, where history, economics, and government classes were lumped together, consisted largely of games and art projects; the teacher doesn't have to do much if the kids are too busy drawing posters or trying to throw a nerf ball into the trash can). Instead I spent most of my time in high school doing something else. I never had homework that actually came home; why take it home, when it could just as easily be finished in other classes? The height of uselessness was my senior year. I would typically roll out of bed, go to school, then promptly fall asleep in art class. Wake up, go to physics, where I would then begin to either read the next chapter in the book, or do homework for some other class. Study Hall, more sleep, or work on essays for college and/or scholarship applications. Eat lunch, then study hall again, more sleep. Go to calculus, sit in the back of the class, and play games on my TI-86 calculator until the end of class. Economics... see above (posters, etc). AP English was the one class that I actually had to do any thinking in, and that's probably only because it's supposed to simulate a college course (thus far, I haven't taken any courses that rivaled that class in difficulty). I would finish out the day at school playing Pinball while I was supposed to be learning how to use Microsoft Word. In the end, what did I end up learning? Other than the AP English class, I learned jack **** in school. Everything I learned, I learned outside of school, on my own.

Now, it does seem that there is a contradiction, if you assume that high school is supposed to teach students real-world skills. That assumption in the majority of cases is completely false. The main reason teenagers are put through four years of high school is to provide them with four more years to grow up, become a little bit more stable, to get used to taking orders from higher ranking individuals, etc. In short, a holding pen for four years. Thus the majority of students -- the ones who go through high school pursuing popularity instead of knowledge -- are primed and ready to become part of the hoarde of mindless drone workers in America. Most will never rise above mediocrity. A few will become politicians (which could be argued, is below mediocrity). It is nearly certain they will not amount to anything; they don't have the knowledge to do so.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you aren't an english major, for one thing... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

I was asleep, drunk, or stoned through almost all of high school. I had had my fair share of getting my *** kicked for being a geek in gradeschool and junior high (or maybe just because i was a jackass and had it comming), and found a bunch of other *******s in highschool with likeminded and sympathetic ideas about the world. so we sort of detached our selves from the rest of the drudgery.

in 11th and 12th grade, i worked off campus at a electronics shop, so only had to go to class half days. staying out every night didnt help my sleep habits or my general health, so my grades were not all that hot. but by that time, I had realized that grades didnt really matter anyway (most people dont clue in to that one untill after college, i cant exactly remember how I figured it out so early - maybe i was just lazy). and only did enough to get by. I liked the handfull of teachers that actually taught, and they liked me because i understood the concepts and talked to them, even though I was snoozing or hungover most of the time, and even though I never actually did any of my work.

all told, im glad i "enjoyed" myself rather than suffering through the abuse that would have come if I had applied my self to academics. I hate to think what kind of dead end corporate rat race job i'd be in now, if I had stuck it out in the honor system and done the "right" thing with my life back then.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

In high school, I actually enjoyed most of my classes. Only later did I discover that a lot of people hated school. I especially loved math and science. I remember being so excited when I learned something like how to use logarithms. For some reason, my classmates did not share my enthusiasm. After school, often I stayed behind in the computer lab, writing little programs for fun, and learning about computers. In my high school, calculus was not part of the curriculum, but an extra class outside of regular hours was offered, so I was in that class in addition to my regular classes - I was very happy about learning calculus. I only had a few close friends and did not associate with people outside my small group of about three friends. In fact, that's the way it has always been for me, not just during high school. I had absolutely no interest in being popular or looking good. Outside of the few friends I had, I did not care at all about the other people or what they thought about me, and rarely talked to them. I did not spend too much time doing homework, because for the most part I didn't find it very difficult. But I did spend extra time to learn additional material I was interested in, and I entered math and science contests. Anyway, my memories of high school are mostly positive.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you aren't an english major, for one thing... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What, is it so bad to expect a course that's supposed to be the fourth semester programming course to be even a little challenging? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Actually, the high school course was the most difficult because each class was like a 50-minute university lecture. Only there were five a week, instead of two or three. If the amount of reading and writing I did for that class was greater than all other classes in high school combined, I wouldn't be suprised.

Anyway, going over my post again, it seems like I come off as saying high school was completely miserable. Really, only the first half was miserable. The second half, I ended up learning all the matierial I needed to know for all my classes (excepting the AP English class) in the span of a few weeks, and doing whatever I pleased (within some limits) for the rest of the time. Like sleep, play games, read books, write, talk with people who didn't feel like doing work, etc. It also probably helped that I thoroughly 0wned a bully when he picked a fight, and consistently turned a dim-witted jock's verbal abuse against him. Also, the fact that I could do most of the schoolwork in my sleep helped out with some of the kids who had a harder time with various subjects, since I was "nice" and would help them out if they asked. None ever seemed to notice that I never actually gave them the answers....

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

what i learned in school:

the cool kids are always cool. doesn't matter how stupid they act.

but hey, if you suck up enough you might not be the #2 loser. you might be #3.

if you want to be cool, you got to wear cool clothes , have a cool haircut and beat people down.

what is cool always changes except the 'beat' part.

'cool' is stupid.

i don't want to be stupid.

i don't want to beat people down.

what this left me with:

an urge to beat jerks down.

violent rage.

cynicism.

character.

yep, the only good thing about being beat down is it can teach you to stand up. now, all i have to do is unlearn the rest...

tip: if your schools bad, change schools. if you have to, do coorospondence. homeschool. any lost social interaction ain't worth the pain. and you can always head over to your friends house(if any). if you don't have any, well, your not losing anything anyway. if home's bad, well, i have no clue.

i suppose i would have had a more enjoyable high school experience if by that time i wasn't well into not caring about any of them and not being very approchable even if someone was friendly. but i had had some experiences with people who where only friendly so they could stab me in the back.

[ January 07, 2004, 09:11: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

The cruelty of High School is much like that the real world. It can be better, it can be worse, but it will prepare the student for the real world in ways that homeschool never will. If a person is homeschooled, from what I've seen, they are screwed, socially held back in what might be a permanent fashion. If they go to a public or private school at least they will have a chance at fitting in with the people in the post-High School world.

[ January 07, 2004, 16:06: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

there's plenty of places to get social interaction other than school.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

Most people that homeschool their kids are aware of the need for social interaction and make allowances for that. But the interaction is more structured and has a purpose other than just sticking the kids in a lunch room or on the playground so the teachers can get a smoke break. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Many home school parents join into "support Groups" where they get together for field trips with other homeshool families. There are many organizations that assist in curiculum and even help parents make contact with one another. Some even cooperate in teaching responsibilities so that the kids get the benefit of teachers with complimenting skill sets.

It's not quite the stereotype of the parents hiding their kids in the basement. It's like anything else. You get out of it what you put into it.

[ January 07, 2004, 16:22: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Substitute "public schooled" for "homeschooled" and you describe my experience to a tee. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd really like to agree with you, but experience teaches that most stereotypes exist for a reason. More often than not, its parents trying to hide their kids in the basement, or save them from whatever. Often shrowded by the excuse that they want to give them some opportunity that they wouldn't otherwise have, but the underlying motivation tends to be one of fear.

Im not for or against any of the options of public, private, or homeschooling. Im for diversity and strife, as it tends to build a stronger culture. That might sound like im for public schooling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif but im actually for having them all, and having upset people ***** about it all the time.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've seen the product of this approach as well. They are no better. I couldn't tell you why.

This isn't a view defined by a few kids. I see a lot of young people from a wide variety of backgrounds. I'm not the butterfly myself, but you make your house open to a few young friends and see what happens. The kids come in droves.

I get to know people, and their friends, and even their families (everybody's parents love me). I am slow to judge and give ample chances to everyone who comes my way. Certain things surface every time, and the social ineptitude of the homeschooled is one of them.

While I haven't met all of the homeschooled, I have met enough to form an opinion. In my opinion, in my experience, it is bad for children.

Re: [OT] Nerds
 

Well, I can't speak to your experience. It's unfortunate that some that homeschool don't do a good job of it. But studies show that home schooled students are as well adjusted, or better then their conventionaly schooled peers. So your experience just isn't typical. I guess the few you have met are just not up to par. Not everybody is cut out for homeschooling their kids.

As far as fear being a motivation, well yeah. A lot of things we do are motivated out of fear. That's not a bad thing all the time. Most people that homeschool though do it because the public schools just can't do it as well.

Here's a good document put out by the US department of Education. Doesn't speak to the issue of social aptitude of students, but shows the type of people that homeschool (basically people from every group in society) and their reasons for doing so.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/2001033.pdf