OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

DONT READ THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE LOTR MOVIES, AND DONT WANT THEM RUINED FOR YOU

As a major Tolkien fan, whilst I thought the movie triology was fantastic, there were quite a few things which rankled with me as being ruinously omitted. Now I appreciate that movies never replicate the books, and that artistic license has to be given when producing the movies, but I wondered what the other Tolkienistas on the forum felt to be their biggest gripes, comments and/or criticisms with the movies!!

Mine (in no particular order of importance), are as follows:

1 missing out Tom Bombadil and the Barrow Downs in Fellowship;

2 Irish music being played in Hobbiton, when they were English (OK OK minor gripe I know)

3 Elves turning up at Helms Deep!!

4 Completely underplaying Faramir, he is one of the most noble and heroic characters in the book, and that suicide charge in ROTK was bloody silly;

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

While I would have liked to see Tom Bombadil, I realize that it isn't really necessary to the story. Same goes for replacing Glorfindel with Arwen, taking Frodo to Rivendell. They're extra characters that don't end up doing anything for the rest of the story.

For Two Towers, yeah, Elves showing up at Helms Deep was a little off, but it helped illustrate Galadriel's confidence in Aragorn and Men, as opposed to Elrond's skepticism. Elrond is finally convinced in Return, and is starting to be convinced in Two Towers. In Fellowship, he was certain that Middle Earth would fall to darkness, and was only concerned with getting the Elves out.

Faramir gets a little more depth in the extended edition Two Towers, showing that all he wants is a little praise from Denethor, but never gets it. Not exactly how I remember things in the book, but it better explains the suicide rush. Also, Faramir is described as a Captain loved by all the soldiers of Gondor, but I haven't really seen that in any of the movies.

One thing I wish was included (and it wouldn't have been very long, either), is showing Wormtongue hurling the palantír at Gandalf, et al. Instead, Pippin just finds it in the water.

Also, maybe it's just because I read the books, and know that Éowyn and Faramir end up marrying... but it seems like they're "together" at Aragorn's crowning ceremony, but no explanation is ever given in the movie. I'll have to see if anyone who hasn't read the books noticed the same thing.

Otherwise, I think the movies were as faithful as they could possibly be to the books. Really, I'm just glad it was Merry and Éowyn who killed the Witch King http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">well, there irish english. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif seriously, it fit them. minor comment.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">bad Peter Jackson! wasn't there a suicide charge in the book? or am i getting confused again?

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Going over my copy of Return of the King, it looks like there was a desperation attack on Osgiliath. Although it doesn't read as much as a rout as it was portrayed as in the movie. It was more of an attack-and-fade, to slow the crossing and buy more time before the attack on Minas Tirith.

Oh, and this is my 500th post, and I get... absolutely nothing. 100 more...

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

hey, one more post and you can start singing '99 pre-Posts to go'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 07, 2004, 09:51: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Over all how close would you all say the "extended" Versions of the movies are to the books?

Remember now that ROTK's extend Version will be close to or over five house long.

(NOTE: I would wait to buy the special 3 set DVD edition that will have an additional few hours of material for the first two movies.)

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Will,

I agree with you about Glorfindel/Tom Bombadil. Although the Tolkien purist in me rankles at no mention of Glorfindel (he was an Elf Lord!), Liv Tyler is a rather attractive substitute, and I DID like the way that the role of Arwen was boosted in the film.

Elrond I think was unfairly treated. He never had the "Elves only" mentality in the book - he was a half-elf himself!! He was the great machinator of the ring-quest and for fighting for Middle Earth. I didn't like the way he was portrayed in the film, nor the way that Arwen seemed to bounce between "shall I go mortal/shan't I?".

I have seen the extended edition of Two Towers and think that Faramir was still woefully underplayed. He was the Captain best loved by the Gondor armies, and his defence of Osgiliath, the Rammas Echor and the Retreat over the Pelennor Fields (before being shot by a Nazgul arrow) were brilliant. The movie missed out on this point for me. It would have been rather nice to make more of the love affair and marriage between Faramir and Eowyn, as they were both heroic.

The Saruman scenes were cut from the ROTK, and I do wonder whether the extended Version will show the dialogue between Aragorn/Gandalf/Saruman at Isengard where Wormtongue yaks the palantir at Gandalf.

Agree with you about the witch king. I just loved the lines "Feast on his Flesh" soon followed by "No man may kill me, I am not a man, I am a woman" - whop!! marvellous.

The other thing the traditionalist in me would liek to have seen was the army of the dead being used to wipe out the corsairs of umbar, the ships being loaded with the armies of Southern Gondor (as per the book), and Aragorn leading these to the Pelennor, so that it was a victory of men.

They should also have played up the bit where Aragorn and Eomer meet up after fighting through the armies of Mordor. Would have made a great movie moment IMHO.

Narf/Will, there wasn't a suicide charge in the book, unless you count the plan for the Battle of the Morannon at the end, which could have been classed as a suicide attempt given that they were hoping to distract Sauron from the hobbits!! THe action at Osgiliath was Faramir taking his rangers to reinforce the garrison, it was never inteded that it could hold, simply to do as much damage to the orcs when they attacked osgiliath as possible and then retreat to the rammas echor. Denethor actually says that the rammas echor (the curtain wall round the Pelennor Fields) should be defended - Osgiliath was a forlorn hope

Atrocities, the extended movies are a bit more like the books, but still not 100%, more like 85% but what they do do if make the movies make more sense

[ January 07, 2004, 10:13: Message edited by: Growltigger ]

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">someone else said the mountain armies wheren't undead; i can't remember.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">so, when they release the extended Versions as a complete set, they'll be even longer? when'll they be out, though?

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Narf, there were no mountain armies in the LOTR. I suppose the nearest thing to it would be the dwarfs of the Lonely Mountain. You dont hear much about them (other than Gloin at Elrond's Council and Balin's tomb in Moria) other than a mention that Sauron sent an army of Easterlings to attack Esgaroth, Dale and the Lonely Mountain and that King Brand of Dale (son of Bain son of Bard the bowman who killed Smaug) and Dain Ironfoot died fighting them.

The Dead lived under the White Mountains and like the movie, owed Aragorn an oath of fealty. He used them to kill the Corsairs of Umbar. They were not undead, but were ghosts (obviously with the power to kill people)

In the book, Minas Tirith was undermanned because the rest of Gondor could only send 3000-4000 men to help, and were keeping most of their forces back to combat the Corsairs. Once these were eliminated, Aragorn could marshall 30,000 odd Gondorean solidiers, stick them in the boats and sale these up to the Pelennor as late reinforcements, and it was these that really knackered up Mordor's troops, as they were getting on top of the men of the city and the rohirrim

[ January 07, 2004, 10:31: Message edited by: Growltigger ]

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, they should have kept that.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, glad to see the back of him.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought this was in the books. Guess I have to re read.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I reckon the enhanced extended DVD might go into a little more detail here.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They're not Irish or English, they're Shirish.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, wait for the DVD. It's bound to be in there, IMHO.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh if that is true then it is the biggest rip off ever. It's bad enough that they release the cinema-Version DVD in september for all those poor saps too impatient to wait until the extended one in december. To make us buy the same damn films all over again on the release of the third film is just criminal.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, that seems like a fair comment. I'm also not entirely happy about the way Saruman became a slave of Sauron rather than a comeptitor for the ring's power.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Scoffo, good to see you are still alive, I thought Mrs Scoffo may have Banned you from life or something! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In response:

1 be difficult to have the Barrow Downs, without having Tom Bombadil, as he is the one who rescues the hobbits from the Barrow Wight;

2 I think Brian Blessed was built to be Tom Bombadil;

3 No elves at Helms Deep save Legolas. Just a couple of thousand Rohirrim (not 300!!) and a dwarf!

4 the extended DVD will have a lot to cover, not least Faramir and Eowyn's romance

5 Shirish?!! LOL ROFLMAO - brilliant, I like that

6 Given that the Dead save the day on the Pelennor, they may show them slaughtering the COrsairs in the extended DVD, but they wont change the ships from being loaded up with Gondorean soldiers, rather than the dead - bummer that

7 the delay on the extended DVD is a bit of a rip off, but if it helps then finance the Hobbit movie, I dont mind it

8 glad you agree with Elrond, as for Saruman, that is a tricksy one my precious - in the book, he started off as using the palantir to gain knowledge from sauron, and to try and fool sauron by saying he was his servant, when he wanted power for himself, but then he despaired and really did become sauron's servant - too much smoke and mirrors to try and show in the movie I think

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the ghosts where in the mountains, weren't they?

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually Old Bombadillo is my least favorite character in the trilogy, so no great loss for me.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">At least the Irish have music, unlike the English (what was PJ supposed to do, put Hobbiton to the tune of "Eleanor Rigby"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No big deal - they all died anyways... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK, here I'll agree with you, at least as far as Faramir's treatment in TTT goes (the extended edition repaired the damage somewhat), but the suicide charge (other than giving Minas Tirith cavalry, which they really didn't have in the books) is pretty faithful to the spirit of the Faramir/Denethor relationship (such as it was).

Just don't get me started on the Ents... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow, we agree on something. wierd.
That was my favorite secen in the book and the movie though in both cases the use of "no man of woamn born" ploy still gets me.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*Evil Emporor Graldo knew his days were numbered with the advent of cloning...*

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

so where is this all 3 movie dvd set ? I cannot see any info on it anywhere.

can someone post a link. I am interested in reading about it

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

It is hard to have more than a few heros in a movie. That is my major complaint in the Tom Clancy books/movies. The books show average people being heroic, the movies Not. I think Faramir got caught up in this and had his heroism turned down.

I have a complaint about the horses and elephants. They will not ride close to one another. This is true in real life as well as in the books. The movie has them riding past each other. No problem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif Right.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

ine (in no particular order of importance), are as follows:

>1 missing out Tom Bombadil and the Barrow Downs in Fellowship;

My least 2 favorite chapters in the book, so no loss IMO.

>2 Irish music being played in Hobbiton, when they were English (OK OK minor gripe I know)

Didn't even notice.

>3 Elves turning up at Helms Deep!!

I actually didn't mind this. I hated the Legolas skateboard scene.

>4 Completely underplaying Faramir, he is one of the most noble and heroic characters in the book, and that suicide charge in ROTK was bloody silly;

Agreed.

I liked the extended Arwen character, but hated the portrayal of Elrond. Probably the only casting choice I had issue with.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think AT was just being pessimistic again...

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">oh yeah... I hope those poor blokes can get over their financial problems, I hear those struggling artists are really having a hard time with things. Think we can make a donation somewhere, just to make sure they dont end up on the street?

...riiiiiight

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

I love The lords of the rings.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

I enjoyed so much of these movies, and where they were strong they were unbelievably fantastic!! All three are simply beautiful to watch and enjoy, and do justice to this story.

Tom Bombadil's section I have come to enjoy more and more as I re-read these books. But there is no way that some guy who looks like he's come right out of Oktoberfest, sings and dances everywhere AND somehow is the most powerful being in Middle Earth really fits in the movie. A friend pointed out the image of Bombadil holding the ring and his blue eye showing through it, in contrast to Sauron's red eye.

Changing Faramir was a let-down. I have read articles where they thought making him a more flawed character made him more interesting to see grow over the two movies. The movie does capture the relationship between Faramir and Denethor, but pursues it differently than the books. Denethor comes off far worse in the movies, and I hope the Extended DVD shows him with the palantir.

My biggest complaint with the films was with Gimli. He is little more than a comic relief character, always the butt of the joke and always in jeopardy. I would like to have seen that oliphant slaying scene done by him rather than Legolas, to give some impression of the strength of the dwarves. Then Legolas could have said "That counts only as one" and see Gimli fume over it.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Bombadil is most certainly not the most powerful being in Middle Earth. Far from it. He is just far older than the ring, and is not a member of any of the corruptable species, so it has no power over him.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

i would argue that he is the most powerfull being on middle earth; the demi-gods are all on that island which isn't part of middle earth any more. in the FOTR, he said that if he kept the ring, all the other lands would fall to darkness, then his. since he appears to be totally unnafected by the ring, that would mean he wouldn't use it even if it didn't corrupt him, and the most powerfull would tend to get conquered Last.

that logic might not hold if he could use it without being corrupted and would use it to hold them off at the Last.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Hmm, well I only glanced through the book really quickly Last night, and the part before the charge seemed to be the same ("We're outnumbered...", etc.). So it was even more toward the direction of slowing down the armies of Mordor as much as possible, to allow more time for reinforcements to come to Minas Tirith.

And, I just watched the movie again today, and payed more attention to the Éowyn/Faramir thing... well, turns out they're shown standing next to each other three times, briefly. Bowing to Aragorn, a shot right around when Aragorn grabs Arwen (and they have their ways with each other), and bowing to the hobbits. Probably a total of five seconds. I think it's just because I read the books that I noticed that, and wondered where the explanation was.

Also... didn't the shock from stabbing the Witch King injure both Merry and Éowyn? I seem to remember them in the Houses of Healing with Faramir, and yet Merry is out at the Black Gate, good as new, as if nothing happened (remember too, Pippin found him pretty much passed out on the battlefield in the movie).

Oh well, I still liked the movies as a whole. The gripes are minor.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Woundwort, the English have a great and rich musical tradition, and yes, we have ceilidh-esque musical, which could easily have been used rather than the "insert CD random Irish jigs" used in the Hobbiton scene. Anyhow, as Dogscoff said, neither musical genres are appropriate as the hobbits are Shirish!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Narf, the dead lived in the paths of the dead which were under the White Mountains.

I agree with the Gimli comment actually. I read an interesting discussion on the LOTR books once, where the remark was made that of all of the fellowship, the person who did the least was Legolas. His main contribution was to shoot the Nazgul above the rapids of Sarn Gebir.

Gimli had a more condusive role, but I think that PJ decided that Orlando Bloom (who I love as he comes from my home town) was more photogenic therefore got more of the starring role.

As to the remark about elephants and horses, too damn right.

In the book, the mumakil (elepehants) were destroyed by either catapult fire or by foot archers going close and volleying arrows into their eyes. Tolkien stated that the Rohirrim were unsettled by the mumakil as their horses wouldn't go close. And the orcs and Haradrim used the elephants as rallying points from the Rohirrim charge because of this.

I think PJ should have reflected the sheer edge-of-the-seat quality of The Battle of the Pelennor Fields. He kind of did it, but I would like it to have reflected the book. Brief summary as follows:

1 Gandalf and Pippin arrive at Minas Tirith.

2 City prepares for war, 3000 troops from the southern fiefs of Gondor turn up to support the garrison. The men of Minas Tirith wanted ten times that number, but appreciated that the southern fiefs were threatended by the corsairs of mbar, and therefore were keeping the bulk of their soldiers back

3 Orcs assault Osgiliath. The defences are breached.

4 Orcs assault the Rammas Echor. The wall is breached and the defenders retreat.

5 Wagons of wounded from Osgiliath and the Rammas Echor arrive in Minas Tirith. Faramir leads the rearguard.

6 the rearguard is beginning to rout. Prince Imrahil and Gandalf lead the knighs of dol amroth and all horsemen in Minas Tirith in an attack on the vanguard of the Mordor forces, which are driven back in disarray. Faramir is wounded by a southron arrow, which looks to have been shot by a nazgul. He plays no further part.

7 The armies of Mordor arrive, the siege begins, cue mayhem, bloodshed and heroic defence - despiar strickens Minas Tirith;

8 The great ram - Grond, Hammer of the Underworld, is brought up and breaks the gates of Minas Tirith. The Witch King of Angmar faces off against Gandalf in the gates, but then the horns of Rohan blow. The Rohirrim have arrived. The Witch King breaks off to face this new threat.

9 The Rohirrim charge, and frankly beat the **** out of a whole chunk of the armies of Mordor. Theoden throws down the standard of the Haradrim. The men of Minas Tirith sally out and assault the baddies by the walls.

10 Witch King jumps Theoden. Merry and Eowyn strike one for the girls and kill him. Theoden dies. Gothmog takes over leading the armies of Mordor. Meanwhile, Gandalf is back in Minas Tirith saving Faramir from immolation by Denethor.

11 The battle rages for ages, but the huge bulk of the armies of Mordor mean that the charge of the rohirrim and the men of gondor is slowed. The rohirrim gather on a mound (on foot) to prepare for the Last defence, the men of minas tirith are slowly beaten back to under the city walls.

12 sails are sighted nearing Harlond. Mordor think that the corsairs have arrived. The rohirrim and gondoreans think "bugger" but hey ho, when they pull up, it is Aragorn with about 25,000 mates from the southern fiefs of Gondor. They assault the Mordor troops and this, together with Aragorn being heroic and the fact that the orcs think that their own ships now seem to be disgorging enemies, drives them into route, the rohirrim charge again, and the armies of mordor are chased off the field and generally slaughtered. Hurrah.

Now that is edge of seat stuff!

[ January 08, 2004, 08:23: Message edited by: Growltigger ]

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Will, the only charge I recall from the book by Gondorean cavalry was the sally out to save the rearguard lead by Faramir, just as the orcs are chasing the defenders of Osgiliath and the Rammas Echor back to Minas Tirith. I dont think there is another but I would be happy to be proven wrong.

You are dead right about Merry. You cant attack a Nazgul without getting hurt and Merry was. He didnt make the black gate. Pippin is there and says how he needs to equal Merry so stabs one of those Olog Hai trolls.

Eowyn had her arm broken in the fight with the Witch King, but both her and Merry were overtaken by a sort of despair type bug which needed longer to heal than any physical hurts. It is in the houses of healing that Faramir sees Eowyn, sees that she is a troubled heroic soul and falls in love with her.

Awwwwwww

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">dwarves live under mountains and there regarded as mountain folk. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Merry, despite his name, is not a girl. still, for those of us who get disgusted every time women are portrayed as helpless on tv, the movie scene and the book scene are, well, cool.

yeah, the battle should have been closer to the book. wonder how it'll be in the extended Version?

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You took that jibe much better than I expected. Maybe losing the Cantina mellowed you out...? Yeah, right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

From my sources (a friend who's even more a Tolkiengeek than I am, theonering.net), I hear the ROTK:EE will be almost an hour longer than what's out in the theatres, and that several scenes that are vital to plugging these holes (i.e. the Houses of Healing) along with a few others (the debut of the Mouth of Sauron, played by the gyrocaptain from Road Warrior) will be added back in. Evidently the New Line Cinema bosses thought that "OK, yes, there are actually lots of people out there who will sit through this whole thing, but if we cut it to 3 1/2 hours, we can show it many more times and make more money - so PJ, cut it anyways." As my friend said, that decision ought to cost New Line the Best Picture Oscar, because what's out there is not the acutal picture.

Speaking of which, any Oscar/Golden Globe/fill-in-the-blank-award speculations in ROTK?

EDIT - link error

[ January 08, 2004, 10:35: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

ROTK was awesome, but if it had been any longer it would have needed to be two movies. Which actually would have been fine with me. I don't think it was vital they stick to the three movie format. But 4.5 hous is just frankly too long for anyone but the most diehard fan to sit through at one setting.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

I agree with Geo.

When all whinges are said and done, PJ has done a phenomenal job to try and squeeze in an epic story into movie format. Things will always have to go and PJ should get credit for doing as well as he has.

One point I havn't mentioned is that I am not sure I am happy with all the orcs talking like my dad (he is a Londoner).

Narf - dwarves are mountain folk so you are correct. But as mentioned, the only lot to get involved in the war of the ring is Gimli, and then the battle at the Lonely Mountain (battle of Erebor) where Dain and Brand "by the farm". That is only mentioned in passing in the books.

As to the extended Version, cannot wait.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Not being real aware of the history around the Tolkien books, this is probably an ignorant statment. But to me the Hobbits being irish-y make some sense. As I read the books and the geographical descriptions I see the whole Middle earth thing as being set in some sort of ancient Great Britain type place. Gondor would be where Wales is, facing Mordor (London), strugling over control of England proper, the Nortern Dwarves being from Scotland and the Hobbits west of Gondor by the edge of the great western sea would put them about where Ireland is. The elves going off to the great land far west beyond the sea would be North America. The book talks about the men of the far south lands being dark skinned I believe. Think Spain which was controlled by the Moors from Africa in ancient days. The far east isn't really talked about, except that it's a place of deep evil and barbarism. Hello, France anyone? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Anyway, lower the sea level so that you can walk between Great Britain and mainland Europe, as it may have been in ancient times really, and you have a picture that almost fits the geography. At least in my mind anyway.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Cant remember the name of the book written by Christopher Tolkien, but it said that the Shire was modelled on England around Thame/Reading/Oxfordshire, but definately middle England.

Tolien seemed to shy away from any analogy of what he was trying to create. I beleive many people said that Numenor was an analogy to Atlantis (hell it sank!), which Tolkien rebutted strongly.

I dont think the Elves were ever meant to be North America, unless Geo is coming out of the closet about his propensity to wearing pointy ears, a blonde wig and poncing round in forests!! I can see Elrond saying "Time to head to the West, y'all get that?" - I suppose Varda/Elbereth is meant to be Hilary Clinton?

Not sure I like the idea of Mordor being London, and Gondor being Welsh. At no place in the book does Boromir hack the head off an orc and say "Boyo Take That Butty Bach", and I expect the fact the orcs all talk like they come from tne East End of London is just happenstance. In my opinion, they should all have had Cleveland accents.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

Actually after I posted that I found a quote of Tolkien caying Mordor in his mind is roughly where the Balkans are. The map in my head was a bit too small I guess. So would put the Shire in great Britain as you say. And Gondor somewhere in mid/southern Europe. Say France or Italy. So the Dwarves are from Holland? How vierd. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

I've just started to re-read the trilogy again after seeing the movies a number of times, well, lots of times. I'm really starting to pick up and how they used a lot of the dialogue from the book (more or less, word-for-word) although sometimes in different settings, for example, the Frodo-Gandalf conversation about Gollum and pity etc. moved to Moria in the FoTR movie. Anyways, they did a fantastic job bringing the books to the screen and I've throughly enjoyed each film and I cannot wait for the Extended Edition of RoTK.

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

yes, I thought that too. Particularly in the ROTK. I think Theoden's speech before the Pelennor Fields particularly comes to mind. It is intresting, that for the most part IMO, the most striking dialogue in the movies is that which comes word for word from the books. I too am re-reading the books. Funny how now I cannt help but associate the mvie characters faces and voices with the characters in the book now.

[ January 08, 2004, 15:31: Message edited by: gravey101 ]

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Gravey101, I agree with you totally, I cannot imagine anything in the book without reverting to the images used in the film EXCEPT for the trolls.

Dunno why, but I still have the trolls in my head as kind of like big orcs, rather than the doughboy things pictured in the movie.

Geo, I guess Gondor is kind of round Rome/Greece (certainly the style of buildings used in the movie look like a cross between renaissance and classical architecture).

Dwarfs? not Holland, no mountains (or hills for that matter) unless that was your joke - more like Norway I feel. You can imagine Gimli doing the Swedish chef impression with his axe

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Being uncorruptable and being powerful are two different things. I don't think he could have used the ring at all. His fate was not intertwined with it, which is what makes him not subject to its influence.

Also, you are forgetting that the Maiar are also demi-gods, though lesser demi-gods. Sauron, Gandalph and Sauruman are all Maiar.

[ January 08, 2004, 17:39: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They were described in the books very similarly to how they appear in the movies.

Funny thing is that I recall reading that the Trolls were created from captured Ents corrupted by Morgoth/Melkor.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wasn't the Balrog, as well?

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Comparisons of Middle-earth geography and history to historical earth are fascinating.

Mountain encircled Mordor actually resembles Persia (Iran) if you look at a relief map. And Tolkien himself compared Gondor to 'Byzantium' -- the Byzantine Empire which had a long history of constant strife with Persia, and finally fell to the Ottoman Turks. Compare the Minas Ithil / Ostgiliath / Minas Anor complex to Constantinople on both sides of the straits of Bosporus. The Bosporus straits aren't much wider than a river, after all. And when Mohammed II attacked Constantinople for the final time he had a new-fangled weapon, the cannon, which he used to batter holes in the walls. Compare to the bLasting of the Rammas Echor with (apparently) gunpowder by the attacking army of Mordor. The battle for Minas Tirith might be considered a replay of the fall of Constantinople.

But there are more 'patterns' to be matched. The shape of the lands protected behind the Anduin might be compared to Britain itself, with Minas Tirith down in the southeast corner being 'London' and Anduin being the English Channel. Then the invading army or Mordor looks like the forces of William the Conqueror. Eomer borrows from Talifer and tosses his sword in the air (and catches it!) while singing when he realizes that the black ships are full of good guys. So the battle for Minas Tirith also borrows from the Battle of Hastings. (And it says somewhere in Tolkien's 'official' biography that he resented the 1066 Conquest very personally, so you can see a sort of 'wish fulfillment' in his replay turning out differently.)

There are more miscellaneous connections. If Rivendell is at approximately the same lattitude as Oxford, as Tolkien says, then 'Mirkwood' is a pretty good fit for the Black Forest in Germany. And Tolkien himself refers to Venice as 'Pelargir' in the Letters, both are coastal cities with canals. There are too many connections to say that any one fit works well enough to be an 'allegory' or deliberate depiction. He just borrowed extensively from real history to build his imaginary history, though he also expresses regret somewhere or other that he had established the geography of Middle-earth too well to make it fit to Europe when he realized that would have been a good idea.

[ January 08, 2004, 21:40: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wasn't the Balrog, as well? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, as is Radagast, who does not appear in the movies.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i think 'angels' would be a better fit. and he still would have been conquered Last, so that point stands.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually... he does sort of appear indirectly, in the form of that moth that always precedes the eagles... he did take that form to reach Gandalph in the books, though he became himself again to talk with him. But, he should have been an actual character, to show that there are more than just the 2 wizards Gandalph and Sauruman.

And the other two unnamed members of the Istari, the wizards council of which Sauruman was the head, were also Maiar. I think the Dragons were started from corrupted Maiar as well, though I am not certain on that one... Shelob was one of the few remaining offspring of Ungoliant, a huge spider-demon thingie that came out of the Void surrounding the world (as did a lot of other "monsters").

[ January 08, 2004, 20:17: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i think 'angels' would be a better fit. and he still would have been conquered Last, so that point stands. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But he was not powerful, just not subject to the influence of the ring. He has no power to resist an army of orcs (or of men even).

Actually, the Valar are more like the "angels," with the Maiar being a group of "lesser angels," as Iluvatar, the guy over everything, is the "God" in Middle Earth, though he is never worshipped by anyone. Keep in mind that angels are demi-gods.

[ January 08, 2004, 20:18: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">then why would he be conquered Last?

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I always had the impression that Bombadil was incredibly powerfull. I thought that Gandalf had said the ring would have been safe if left with him, and that his woods would not fall, but that it wouldnt be right to ask that of him, and it wouldnt help the rest of the world.

I also seem to remember him saying that Bombadil could probably come out and lay down some whoop-***, but it just wouldnt be cool to ask.

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Oh... hmm... too bad Tolkien never said just who the hell Bombadil is...

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didn't he say that he was also just as likely to give the ring away as anything ?

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