Please Read
 

<font color=blue>Please Read.</font>

I just wanted to start a thread and talk about us, the people who post here in this forum.

Over the years many people have come to this forum and stayed not because of the games, oh sure that lead us here, but more so because of the people and the calabur of professionalism of the Posts, and dignity and kindness that was afforded to all.

That dignity and level of open minded professional behavior that has Lasted for so long has recently been underminded by dissenting views and negative argumentative post over certain topics.

Last month I had had enough of it and walked away from the forum fully prepared to never come back. I had posted some things that were out of line, offensive, and simply wrong. It was not my intent to do so but never the less I did. That sparked a huge debate and mud slinging sewer fight that I am ashamed of.

I came to my senses and realized that this place we share, these forums, are our conduit to each other. We post ideas, thoughts, jokes, and a bunch of other interesting topics because we, all of us, enjoy the interaction and comradery that comes from being a member here.

So why have we had so many argumentative, hostile, and even painful discussion about things that we all know nothing good will come from? Why do we let these dark discussion spiral out of control and erupt into heated arguments, not debates, but full blown gutter driven fights?

I honestly don't know why, but I have a theory about it. I feel that over time many of us have become comfortable with other members of this forum and feel free to post what we truly think and feel. By doing so, we have failed to understand that what we post can and most often will be taken the wrong way.

We all need to remember that our words can hurt people even if that was never the intent. When that happens, we then out of pride, stand by those words in an attempt to save face when all we should do is just apologies and walk way.

Many of us, me included, don't step back and look at the big picture, we focus on the topic at hand and go for it. We fixate upon the subject and material of the post and forget all about dignity and professionalism and attack those who have different points of view. Those people in turn do the same and the battle royal is on.

In the end, nothing is accomplished say for hurt feelings and angry members. I almost walked away from this forum because of just such an incident and I know that others have done the same, left the forum over arguments that should never have occurred.

We are after all human, and we all have our own views on world events. But we as a whole, here in this forum, must remember to step back from the debate before it becomes and agreement or this site will fail. People will begin to leave and they will not come back. Shrapnel's Intel forums will suffer from this and so will we all. Why should we allow ourselves to loose one member over something as stupid as a disagreement over a particular topic? No member of this forum is worth losing and all should remember that.

Please consider what it is your about to post and how it will effect others before you post it. If your angry about a post or topic, take a few minutes to calm down and think about what it is your about to post. <font color=red>NOTHING</font> is worth getting angry over if you stop and think about it. If you know that you are not the antagonist why feed the beast? No matter what we say it will not have the intended result. It is my sincere belief that hot topics should be cooled before they are allowed to spiral out of control. The reason for this was made clearly evident by recent threads. They ignited a debate, that debate became an agreement, that argument became a fire storm, and that fire storm became a sewer fight.

Look we are all human, and we all have our buttons that can be pushed from time to time. When someone’s button is pushed, deliberately or by accident, <font color=green>stop pushing it.</font color> Just stop.

In the end you will do more good than harm, and hopefully everyone will learn from your example and we all then can avoid losing what we have here.

We are all here for to post and have a good time, so what do you all say to doing that and leave the bitterness and anger out of it.

Thanks for reading this if you have.

[ January 09, 2004, 12:46: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Please Read
 

I for one try to avoid the political threads, mostly for the reasons that Atrocities sited. Everyone has their own opinions, and some people will take no other opinion than their own. I try not to offend anyone, and if I"m making a joke, I try to make sure that everyone knows I'm doing so. I know there was one poster Last year who got upset with me because I mentioned my computer got zapped by lightning maybe a few times too many. But I think that's as far as I've offended anyone that I'm aware of.

Re: Please Read
 

I guess I've not been hanging around the right threads...guess I missed the "Attrocities has a caniption (sp?)" post. Must say I'm a bit surprised.

Well, the fault is the lack of a person staring you in the face. It's the same reason people "kill" themselves to get their car in front of yours on the highway (yet would never get in front of you at a movie theatre line). It's the same reason people will cuss a store clerk out over the phone and say stuff they would never say if staring at that same clerk over the counter. It's the nature of the "beast" we call the Internet.

It's one of the reasons I refrain from joining in on the serious discussions here, too. The "my God is real and yours isn't", "my country is better than yours", and the number of other various discussions that someone feels strongly about to post are "places" that have (or should have) "neon warning" lights beside the subject line. (besides, I'm not smart enough for most of the debates... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif ).

Good post, "big A". And humble. Does one good to search one's soul once in a while and get rid of some of the cobwebs that have gathered.

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I remember him. It was when I first came into the forum was just "cruising" around to "check the place out". I remember thinking, "Gee, if this is the kind of forum this place is, I might as well move on!" Turns out it was an isolated incident (and highly uncalled for). As I recall, he then proceeded to make fun of your name and your avatar. I've never forgotten it and it almost made me leave and not come back.

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I remember him. It was when I first came into the forum was just "cruising" around to "check the place out". I remember thinking, "Gee, if this is the kind of forum this place is, I might as well move on!" Turns out it was an isolated incident (and highly uncalled for). As I recall, he then proceeded to make fun of your name and your avatar. I've never forgotten it and it almost made me leave and not come back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gee, I forgot about that part. I know the Einstein picture wasn't the best thing out there, and that's why I changed it recently. But it wasn't because of him. I completely forgot about that. And like I told him, my name is my name, and there's not much I can do about it. I could change my handle, but since it's my name, I'll stick to it. The only thing I'd change would be taking that E out. It always stuck me as wrong, as I usually go by Greg Bowman, or if formal, I go by Gregory E. Bowman, but that's part of my email address and that's why I chose that handle.

Re: Please Read
 

I am not ashamed to admit that:

I have flamed others on various threads at this forum.
I have posted with the sole intent of refusing to admit that I could be or was wrong.
I have apologized more than once when I cooled down.
I have asked Atrocities for aid in my Last gutter fight, a person that I deeply respect and consider to be a friend, in the context of the word that I apply to the internet (i.e. never having meet).
That I have allowed my real world situation to gain control of my senses and fuel my anger for no better reason than to attack someone, no attack anyone. Misery loves company.

I am not ashamed to admit any of this. I am not saying this out of disrespect, arrogance, or any other self-centered feelings. I say it because I am also not afraid to wear my failures and shortcomings on my sleeve for all to see.

What I am ashamed of is that I allowed my anger to overcome me to the point that I decided to leave our forum rather than let the issue slide.

Lesson learned and I am back.

Re: Please Read
 

AT you must also consider if we were all living near each other this would occur as well but in conversation.

We are friends here. Some people will take offence and leave. Some will stay. Some will not take things personally. I have been upset ( never mad ) a few times over the years. There are a few people who can really get under my skin. So i had a choice. Become friends with them to understand why they think that way or leave. I decided to become there friends. As an oppertunity to learn must never be missed. As is the oppertunity to gain a friend. I have contacted the people privately and resoved the problem before it became an issue.

You know I would rather have some one post something and have people find it offensive than people not posting anything at all or white washing everything.

As long as we keep the personal flinging down. That is all I ask for. For I like to read what people are thinking. I do not always reply. And I have written stuff and then just hit the back button instead.

But you cannot leave because your part of the core group now.

And what brings you back is the real reason we post here. SE gaming. When I take a break I skip the OT topics and just read the SE topics.

It is all the evolution of our relationships with each other.

This is a hump we need to get over as a core. Some will make it some will not. To some people this is the only place they can post what they think. That is an honour in itself.

Re: Please Read
 

Good points all around, and I tend to agree. I don't come to this forum for that kind of argument. I can handle an ideological discussion, so long as it's civil. I even tried to stamp out an impending flame-war in one thread, without success.

As far as I can see, this is an English-speaking forum. But what you have to realize is many people who post here have English as a second language. Those people will often not understand the nuances and idiosyncracies of the language as spoken in other parts of the world.

Even among England, the United States, Canada, and Australia there are differences of expression that are difficult to understand from one place to another. So it stands to reason that one must be very literal in any sort of serious discussion in order not to be misundertood.

That's my two-cents worth.

Re: Please Read
 

Well spoken everyone.

I agree Tesco, 100%. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Please Read
 

Those are all great points Tesco, and I am inclined to agree with you for the most part. I can’t speak for Atrocities but feel that he was implying something similar, but unspoken in his post.

One point I don’t agree with is the first line, I didn’t read that you meant it literally, but I felt that I should touch on it anyway. Since I or my family has been with the military for over a decade we have moved around a lot, Korea, Texas, Germany, France, Italy, Turkey, Luxemburg, Georgia, North Carolina, plus several deployments including my wife’s current one where the family did not tag along. It has been my experience that (regionally speaking) communities share a common theme and thus a common view on topics. I can even see it here with the Germans sharing a similar view, the Texans, etc. Of course it goes without saying that there are always exceptions to every rule.

Edited in: I guess I was preparing my post at the same time as you Atrocities, my apologies to everyone as it now reads out of order. Cipher, I know you have been hard hit for sharing your views, if I recall right I even stood with you on one fight with Ronan, my apologies if I every shot rounds down range in your direction.

[ January 09, 2004, 15:46: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

Re: Please Read
 

No problem President Elect Shang. I came away from that topic without animosity (I wasn't referring to that one anyway). In fact, I had forgotten that particular discussion until you just mentioned it...And hey, I am occasionally wrong, you know.

Re: Please Read
 

Well, spoken Atrocities. (and I'm a very good listener, so I should know)

I really enjoy dropping by here every day, and although some of the discussions get a little heated, I would find it very hard to leave. The quality of people here is second to none and I am proud and honored to be a part of this community.

"From a common interest we discover that we are among friends, and that our passion extends beyond any single topic." We are all lurkers by nature, but as we feel more at ease within these forums, we share our thoughts, ideas and every so often our sense of humor. We are "The Good, The Bad and The Silly." I for one would not have it any other way.

Here's to diversity, humor and good freinds, Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Thanks again Atrocities for this refreshing post.

Re: Please Read
 

President Elect Shang, now that you bring it up, where in Texas do you live? I lived in Wichita Falls for 4 years when stationed in the Air Force, and being from Oklahoma, I lived in that area for about 24+ years. Also, I have an aunt & uncle who live in Amarillo. Just curious.

Re: Please Read
 

Now we are at San Antonio, but since I live at on post housing it is technically Fort Sam Houston. Oklahoma you say? Ever heard of Calvin? It is half way between Ada and McAlister and that is where I grew up, although I should note that I was born in Oklahoma City. I know Wichata Falls even though it has been a long time since I have been back there I used to frequent it.

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've been to sprawling San Antonio. Had good friends there. That's were one of the best burn centers in the world is located. (on the base, that is).

Re: Please Read
 

Atrocities, thanks for that speech.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">and i would be the silly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
and that's my method for conflict resolving.
i think maybe posting some general rules and tips for arguements might help.
1: if your angry, type out what you really want to say. give vent to everything. all of it. then, erase it. do this until you can post calmly.
2: if your post includes a negative opinion of somebody, erase it. then, consider if it's truly needed. if it is, re-write it as constructive critisism. 'your feet stink' to 'perhaps you could change your socks'. you'd be amazed how much it can help.
3: if, despite everything, you think your post may make people think you don't like them, put something in there like 'i do respect you and your opinions'. Atrocities once thought i didn't like him becuase i was i little to blunt. and i definitly could have worded it better. fortunatly, we got it resolved with little difficulty.
4: remember, the other people are people to, with their own opinions. and remember, a good arguement is one where people learn something. and not that the other people are idiots. if you think that, something probably went wrong.

Re: Please Read
 

I agree with everyone here, on proper forum etiquette.

But I'd just like to know one thing; what's the cause of all this?

Re: Please Read
 

I talked about it breifly in my post. Lately we have all be letting things get out of hand in our discussion. The object of this thread was to draw attention to the problem before it became an epidemic.

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Guilty as charged! Take me away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Never heard of Calvin. I was born & raised in Lawton, which is why I'm familiar with the Wichita Falls area. Even lived in Burkburnett for a couple of years. I'm more familiar with the SW Oklahoma area. Never made it over to McAlister, and I've passed through Tulsa a few times. I spent 16 weeks in San Antonio; 6 at Lackland AFB for basic training, and believe it or not, even though I was in the Air Force, I had to go to Ft. Sam Houston for 10 weeks because the Air Force at the time didn't have a school for what I did, which was mental health clinic technician. Nice area. I wished I could have spent more time there.

Re: Please Read
 

I feel that this is important so I am bumping it.

Re: Please Read
 

Good post Atrocities.

Being a heavy contributor in some of the more political threads, I would like to stay this:
I would like to thank all contributors in those threads for sharing their views of the world with me. Although I disagree vehemently with many of you, I have learned a lot from these threads. Please don’t stop posting you sincere opinions, they are appreciated.

Re: Please Read
 

Atrocities, if you're still reading this, realize that I once felt the same way. I was off these Boards for about 3 months, but I came back, and started giving help to newbies, just like I used to. Make a few dozen shipsets ... then stop by and lurk ... try it repeatedly, and then come back when you feel it's right.

Take care.

Re: Please Read
 

Good post Atrocities and sensible to boot.

I think we all also have to remember the medium in which we are communicating. Posting requires a good degree of verbal dexterity in order to get one's point across, and certain "emotions", or nuances to a statement (for example, irony) are very hard to get across by posting alone.

Missing these nuances means that it is easier for preople reading the post to misunderstand what was actually intended. Face to face or verbal comminucation tends to avoid this, as we have all developed the ability to "read" the underlying metaphors and spin which people make to their statements.

Worth thinking about, I for one have made inflammatory Posts, even to the extent of flaming one poster mercilessly (but he I recall was trying to get Atrocities' trek site kicked off his server, so maybe I was partially justified on that one. Certainly, he seemed to take umbrage at the PMs I sent him).

Re: Please Read
 

I wanted to say thank you to eveyone who has posted in or read this thread.

Thank you all.

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe I'm just not reading the right threads, but I haven't noticed anything getting out of hand. Although that could be because I'm very hard to offend http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Arguement and criticism can both be good things, as long as no one takes things the wrong way, or becomes offended.

Think about all the possible ways a statement could be intended, and then take the least offensive interpretation as the intended result.

Renegade 13

Re: Please Read
 

We as a people do not/ can not see the body language of the others so sometimes things ment in jest will be screwed up and taken the wrong way, I have found that for the most part this forum is very helpfull and inforative, yes we can step on toe's but also remember even eye to eye we do I think you have given a lot to this forum and game!

Re: Please Read
 

This is why we need good emotion icons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Please Read
 

Just need to add my two cents.

I've seen flame wars, worse than any here, in the past I participated, and even start a few. But flame wars and the such just end up dying out. Many of us like friend have fights, heck I once knock out a guy at college and we went on to become best friends, fights happen, what is important is to just let fights end, feelings get hurt when fights drag on.

Just my two 1/2 cents http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ January 11, 2004, 19:27: Message edited by: The FryeR K ]

Re: Please Read
 

This forum is the most polite, friendly and helpfull I've participated in. That is the reason I stay here. Not the game itself but the forum people. I could play (and played at first) the game without this forum easily. The atmosphere here is just very 'positive' (cannot think of a better word in English). Thanks guys for making it a nice place to come by. Keep it up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's nothing wrong with your English. That is a good word to describe this forum. I stay here also for similiar reasons.

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hello.

I am an uncouth barbarian, completely devoid of manners or dignity. The other members of this forum are a shining example of humanity, and when we are not talking about politics, its truely a pleasure to bask in the glow of your collective presence.

The only reason I return to this place, and hence to PBW, and therefore the only reason that I continue playing this game, is that this is such a rational and mature community of people. Everyone here is willing to hear out others and will generally approach a discussion with reason and rationality.

Sometimes when topics drift towards politics or religion or other things unfit for polite public conversation, things get out of hand. But never as out of hand as they do in other places and with lesser mortals.

Often, I am guilty of behaving in a less than desireable manner, saying things that are less than constructive, or just acting like a downright foolish and rude person. I am always astounded that you people continue to put up with me, and continue to suffer my presence when it would be much simpler to ask me to leave.

In some ways, I feel like you all are the family I never had, even though I'm the step-child you never wanted.

A solid 90% of the above text was candid and serious. The remaining 10% was designed to give you a laugh. It is a pleasure participating in discussion with all of you, and I am glad we can all step back from the more heated discussions in the end, and remain on good terms.

Re: Please Read
 

ALRIGHT! who are you and what have you done with Puke?!?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 12, 2004, 22:40: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: Please Read
 

Again, you people are all the reason why this Forum is what it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Please Read
 

Agrees with narf. What is that stuff in Puke's avatar, and where can I get some?

Re: Please Read
 

I am truly humbled by that puke, it is my hope that I can uphold your sentiment and not shame myself foolishly more than I feel I have already done.

Thank you, I mean that.

Re: Please Read
 

So FyreR K, you started out by saying “Just need to add my two cents” (equals $.02) but you ended by saying Just my two half cants” (equals $.01), I hope you are not looking for that other penny back as I have spent it already, Narf said I could so I did.

I do like the emotion icons (Atrocities comment), but I prefer to use them on a very restricted bases so that if they are read in my Posts than others will know that is just the sentiment I intended.

George, they still have Air Force and Marines here for assorted training, but most (I could be wrong) is done on the other respective Posts, honestly I have never checked to say with certainty.

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">DID NOT!!

liar, liar, pants on fire, hanging from a telephone wire!

just thought you folks might enjoy one of the wittisisms that was going around when i grew up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Please Read
 

Hi all!
I must have missed some of the delicate discussions as I'm very busy at the moment.
I love the board for the people here and they way we can usually discuss things. There are very few other Boards that mature as this one.

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Telephone Wire? Could it be something a little closer to the ground, say a cloths line? You know, me and heights, we don’t agree.

[ January 13, 2004, 13:51: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

Re: Please Read
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Telephone Wire? Could it be something a little closer to the ground, say a cloths line? You know, me and heights, we don’t agree. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ok, clothes line. i don't like heights either.

and i'm not to fond of depths.