Ship weapon loadout
 

I'm rather new to the game... still playing the demo. One thing that is still eluding me after several 100-turn runs is the optimal weapon load for a ship.

I have tried several things:
-All DF weapons (maxing out the demo's tech level), but these failed miserably vs the AI's missile ships.
-All missiles, which has enabled me to play ~50 turns w/o loosing a ship and winning every battle... that is, untill I tried shooting down satelites.
-A mix of the two, but that is a bit more complicated.


In my current game I am using the all missile ships, and I have integrated light carriers (I'm researching carries now). My missile ships - while great at dealing with enemy ships - cannot touch satellites or fighters. They are great because I can pretty much ignore defense and equip them with as many engines and missiles as possible, so they get in firing range, fire 7-8 missles each, then run away for a couple turns.
The reason I stopped using all DF ships was beacuse they needed to be fast, have lots of weapons AND lots of defense (so they can withstand any pounding that occurs before/while they are in range). This is also what is making me hesitate using a mix of DF and missiles.
Is there any sort of general rule when it comes to outfitting ships, or do you have any suggestions for how I should try to outfit my ships (keep in mind that the demo doesn't let you get above cruisers).

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Keep all single-type weapon ships EXCEPT you want Point Defense Cannons. These will fire on incoming missiles, fighters, etc. They also get a 70% to-hit bonus and abosultely butcher what they can hit.

DF weapons are actually better than missiles once you get them high enough. Missiles simply don't fire enough. Remember on your Cruisers and Light Cruisers to click the Weap Mount button and use Large Mounts for your direct fire weapons. that increases they're effectiveness quite a bit.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

PDC are the bane of missile strategies. Far too powerful in unmodded game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I notice that you signed on to the #se4 IRC channel but then left after less than a minute...

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Also keep in mind that pure PDC ships won't close on the enemy since they think they have nothing to shoo t at. You must include at least one other weapon.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Like others have said here, keep your ship types 'pure'. All seekers or all DF, and a few PDC in each ship. Give the seeker ships "maximum weapons range" strategy and give the DF ships something like "Optimum Weapons Range" or maybe "Short Weapons Range" or "Point Blank" if they are shorter-ranged powerful weapons like Ripper Beams or the Graviton Hellbore. Carriers should have 'Don't Get Hurt' as their strategy and no weapons except some PDC. Make the carrier a big launcher with as many cargo and fighter bays as possible and let the fighters engage the enemy. It's good to combine many different types, just keep them fleeted into distinct Groups with the proper strategies.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Well, I'm quickly adding "defensive" ships (with tons of shields/armor and some DF weapons) to bear the brunt of the punishment, as well as pure DF. Of course, since I can't get any contruction upgrades, it takes forever to build new ships :\ I would add PDC ships, but I'm gearing my fleets towards a specific enemy (the demo will run out before I have a chance to properly engage anyone else) that doesn't use missiles.


As for my stopping by on IRC... the channel seemed rather empty, and I don't usually hang out on gamesnet.

Also, out of curiosity: is there any way to "link" construction yard together. i.e. if I have 3 or 4 bases with construction yards, can I group them in some way so that they combine their resources? (if that doesn't make sense, just picture it as each construction yard building a piece of the ship and then combining the whole thing)

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Well SE4 is a niche game in a niche market... you can't expect there to be 100s of people ready to start chatting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Why does the server the channel is on matter? Its still chat just the same.

No, you can not link space yards together.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

The server matters because some IRC clients don't connect to more than one server at once without multiple instances of the client open. Which can get confunsing.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Simple solution: get a better client. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Trillian for example.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

they can! with the newest Version of mirc (i don't know about the older ones) type this in:

/s -m [servername]

where [servername] is something like irc.gamesnet.com

i'll head back in and idle though. maybe other people will read this and do the same http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 16, 2004, 04:45: Message edited by: oogs ]

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but only in mods.

What you do is:
1) Build a non-spaceyard facility.
2) Upgrade it to a facility with SY ability
3) Enjoy the fast build rates since the SY abilities on the planet stack fully.

All you need to do is mod in another facility that has no SY ability and has the same family number as a regular spaceyard. Place it before the regular SY in your facilities.txt, and presto.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

But remember, don't try any modding until you have the full Version, or you're working on a duplicate of the game data, because the demo doesn't like you messing with the data (you could always put in the full game data after all! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

(SJ, you always make things too complicated! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Yeah this is an aspect to the game - it limits i guess excessive ship building. I say shell out the $$$$ for the full game instead of trying to mod the demo - and perhaps if enought people pay for the game the price might be reduced by say 30% within the next 3 months.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

The game has sold a huge amount of copies for this sort of release model... it has been Shrapnel's best selling game for years. Dominions 2 is up there, but I don't think they have ever stated if it has sold more copies than SE4, but I doubt that it has at this point.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If Dominions sells better than SEIV, we can always make a Dominions Mod that will play even better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif - Hey, DomII is a nice game, no offence intended, I just can't stop marveling how flexible is the SEIV design kit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Someone attempted to mod SE4 to a fantasy setting ... not much actual hope there. There are many things which are hard-coded in SE4 which you just can't overcome with a mod. There's no way to make the combat and experience systems much more sophisticated, and they're pretty limited. I've tried modding Aaron with email barrages about probability and cause & effect, but they didn't get very far. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(Besides, Dominions II is wunderbar, and is getting more and more mod options added.)

PvK

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Actually... Spoon's Fantasy Mod was looking quite good... he just never got around to finishing it.

Dominions is ok, certainly not "wunderbar."

[ January 21, 2004, 00:48: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

No, Dominions tramples ***, Fryon. You're wrong.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

but hey, all we have to do is wait for SEV http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


and i did shell out the $$$.. it should arrive by mail this week.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

No it doesn't. Every time I play the demo, I find more things wrong than right with it.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Fyron, Fyron, Fyron. Are you getting this topic off topic? That's my job. *shakes head* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Fryon, you find problems with everything that isn't quite to your tastes, and then you make annoying blanket statements even about other people who manage to appreciate what you can't.

All right already. Not everyone can get into it, and maybe you're one of them, but to me, and to many many many very happy fans, it is very wonderful. A real joy. Go ahead and don't like it yourself, but don't contradict my appreciation of it, please.

Why's it so great. See the bubbly post I just wrote here, on the Dominions II forum.

(This is way off topic, but this whole thread is way off topic, even when it was about SE4. Ship Weapon Loadout? Oh yeah - the new player needed to try PDC - and he did, and is getting the game. The old topic is dead; long live the new topic. Dominions II is great! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

PvK

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Yeah, that's the spirit! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
http://seiv.pbw.cc/tss.jpg

[ January 21, 2004, 13:17: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

PvK:
Gee, sorry for having a dissenting voice. And why can you use blanket statements and others can not? Hmm... just midly hypocritical.

Geo:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif At least you appreciate my contributions a great deal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Geo,
ROTFLMAO!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

LOL! That's a good one Geo! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I bet we see it more often... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

http://seiv.pbw.cc/tss.jpg

[ January 21, 2004, 17:58: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Ah, the love.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Oh man thats great stuff and don't worry fyron pictures like that only hang around forums for a few years http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

rofl... that's awesome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm really realy close, though. And I like to keep it that way... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

i sure hope you're not trying to pull a "duke nukem forever" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I heard it has its own Category in the Vaporware awards... something like "Lifetime achievement award".

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

You had better finish it, and soon!

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because my blanket statements were either about my own appreciation for the game, or a well-deserved sarcastic reply to your unneeded interjection.

PvK

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

my topic was boarded and taken over by the enemy! ahhh! i knew i should have researched forum thread capture before posting....

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

So blanket statements of appreciation are ok, but blanket statements of non-appreciation are not? Again, just mildly hypocritical.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

This blanket assumption thread has really gone places hasnt it lol.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Fyron, this thread will be well-remembered the next time you comment on my spam. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

*Narf, once more in the spectater's gallery. Otherwise known as the Peanut Place.*

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Ive got blanket assumptions about spamming to but i shall keep quite on that one. A good email spam filter is a good start and a firewall and so forth.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

I've got just one thing to say:


"CALM DOWN!"

That's all

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

/me heads back to tinker with his ship weapon loadout. so far, i've decided that heavily shielded PD ships with lots of DF and M ships do the trick. oh, fighters are awesome too... it's funny to watch the AI use a carrier with ~240 fighters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Just play a PBW game and you will see how fighters are nearly useless... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Would like to see new fighter only weapons. Perhaps experience levels for fighter squardans ?

We have mines, fighters, sats, drons and what else could we have - fighters that could deploy mines in battle that could allow them to retreat and catch enemy ships ?

Fighter killing satelites ?

Throw some ideas around folks

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fyron calls my off-topic Posts spam; that was what i was refering to. don't mind Fyron, he's just arguementive.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Oh don't worry, some of my Posts in this thread are spam too.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

which is what i was bugging you about.

i have this urge to bug people who are overly serious to much. and you fit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And yet, just this turn, an enemy brought a whole fleet of carriers and minor ships against me...

This should be interesting.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

Hmmmm, I don't know Primitive. Not that I am wont to defend a blanket statment by Fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , I would have to say this one comes as close to being correct as any I have seen him make.

I've been in a few Koth games, and have yet to see fighters be more then a minor nuisance. Easily countered without too much trouble. Of course I have seen cases where they were a factor, but in those cases I have always been of the opinion the mere presence of any enemy forces was the factor, ie controlling colonization of a system. That the fact that they were fighters was irrelevant, and that a couple of actual warships would have been just as much of a factor.

About the only thing I can see them good for is a temporary stop gap measure. You get to a system first and don't have time to build a space yard and to get a warship built, so you pump out some fighters and cover the warp points while you bring up some ships.

I guess that alone keeps them from being totally useless, but would still fit into a definition of "nearly useless", which is what he said anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

I do not see why people are so concerned about me making alleged blanket statements. Everyone does so.

Primitive, as long as you do not do something stupid like stop using PDCs, you can definitely defeat all but the most massive hordes of fighters. But that requires being attacked by a much larger fleet of ships, which would probably slaughter you anyways if they had just used warships in the first place. Fighters can be useful in the extreme early game, before PDC becomes prevalent, but once you start putting a few higher level PDC on all your ships, fighters fall easily in large numbers. Hence, nearly useless. There are only a very small number of game situations in which fighters are not totally useless. KOTH play is not representative of SE4 PBW in general, because it generally forces at least some the combat to be occuring in those early stages of the game, before you can stick 2-3 PDC Vs on each warship without losing a significant amount of hull space.

Re: Ship weapon loadout
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not the way You do Fyron, You are the Champ.

Fighters are:
- Very usefull in very early game to block warppoints and take down lone Scouts, Raiders and Colonyships.
- Usefull in early scirmishes not because of their power, but because they force the enemy to keep their fleets together. Excellent as delaying tactics after that early breakthrough. Very few players will move to the next system with a few small stacks of fighters on the loose.
- Usefull again in mid/late games (if you can handle the micromanagement). Large fighters with Shields and Armor are almost imune to PDC and very hard to hit with ordinary weapons.

But the most important thing with fighters is their impact on the economics of the game. A small investment in research and the showing of a few hundred fighters early forces the other guy to go heavy on PDC. This will cost him much more than what you have invested in the fighters.
Small excample: Putting 1 extra PDC on a LC only costs 250 Mins. For a fleet of 100 (very common in KOTH) it adds up to 25 000. You also need about 10 more ships to get the same amount of offensive/defensive power, another 60-70 000. Then you have to pay maintanance throughout training, transport to the front and waiting for battle (lets say 10 turns on average), "oups" thats another 125 000 minerals.

To call fighters nearly useless is just plain wrong. It is one of the most usefull weapons in the game (after mines) if used properly. I would dare to say that if you don't find fighters usefull, you have never fought someone who knows how and when to use them, or you have never done the math on the economics.

Now for some real useless stuff: Satelittes and Weapon platforms http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

BTW: Missile ships can do most of the same thing fighters can, but at a greater cost.

BBTW:
Fun with fighters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Try this one in late game: Put 1-2 Fighterbays on each capital ship. Load with large fighters with Shields, Armor, ECM and Small Rocket Pods. Make sure the fighters have the same speed as the ships. Attack a fleet of equal size (this is especially fun in warppoint defence/offence). Depending on the other guys settings, two things can happen: A - He wastes a lot of shots from his main guns trying to hit the fighters or B - your fighters will get through and do some real damage. Cool thing (for the fighter guy) is that there is no smart defensive settings (I know of). If he let his main guns fire at the fighters he wastes a lot of firepower firing on small stacks (I have seen 20 shots from PPB5s fired at 2 fighters), If he chooses the "do not fire on fighters" option he is very vulnerable to a "real" fighter attack next time. Do NOT try this against the Talisman http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif