PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Ok, I did it, I fell victim to the perils (and joys) of PBW. And my first experience started out with a bang. (aka: a PBW-Athon) lots of fun to be had for sure but there were some bitter-sweet leftover feeling about this method of play.

BTW: Last night's PBW-Athon is now being continued as a 'regular' PBW game.

I can't help but feel that the way the game handles this PBW multi-player feature needs some work. (and I'm going to let Aaron know a few ideas I have concerning this.) Having the game 'Close' each time the player 'Ends-turn' forcing me to relaunch the game at every turn does not sit well with me.

I think there needs to be some work done here.

1) The game should not close at the end of each turn. (this way the player could overview his/her empire while waiting for the next PBW turn to be available.)
2) It would be nice to have a 'send PBW Info' button within the game. (of course the player would need to configure the required info like server name, email addresses etc.)
3) The player sould be notified in the game when the next turn is ready and have a 'Get next PBW turn' button/indicator.
4) A better method than feeding/compiling/distributing 'save games' is needed. (there must be a way to only send the 'changed' data and not the whole save game each time for processing.) If the 'packet' size was small enough, then many, many more turns could be played in a relitively short time.
5) It would also be very nice if 'encounters' were handled in real-time.

I'm sure I'll think of more stuff, but these points were IMHO the major issues I had with the PBW gaming system.

Now don't think that I would prefer that SE be real-time, because I don't, but when playing a PBW-Athon and it sometimes takes longer to send/recieve info than to actually play your turn, some speed improvements will go a long way to making this a more enjoyable game experience.

So, what do you think? Agree? Disagree? Have a few suggestions of your own? (Please keep your ideas/suggestions targeted on the PBW/Multiplayer aspect of the game. Who knows perhaps some stuff will make it's way into SE5.)

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 18, 2004, 18:59: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

One thing to keep in mind was that the system in SE:IV was really developed for PBEM and not the PBW system.

But I have no problems for lobbying Aaron to make the changes you listed below!

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Congrats on loosing your virginity http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Although all your suggestions would be nice to have for SEV, just stick with PBW a little longer and you will see these are not major issues http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Most games does a turn a day (or every other day), and with a decent connection Receiving/Sending turns is fast enough, and with a good unzipper its only a few cliks to get the game launced. You could also use the RTC to save a few more clicks when all players are Online at the same time.

Anyway, when will we see you in KOTH ? Always good with some fresh meat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

1) The game should not close at the end of each turn. (this way the player could overview his/her empire while waiting for the next PBW turn to be available.)

You can survey your empire during your turn. If you pressed End Turn prematurely, you can always load the game again. And You can always load the game again after you send in your player data.

2) It would be nice to have a 'send PBW Info' button within the game. (of course the player would need to configure the required info like server name, email addresses etc.)

I don't understand what you're asking for here. PBW info as in what?

3) The player sould be notified in the game when the next turn is ready and have a 'Get next PBW turn' button/indicator.

No. It is your responsibility to check up on your PBW games, and it is your responsibility to inform yourself when the new turns are due. Plus, I certainly do not want SE4 make annoying pop ups each time new turns are generated, nor I would want it connected to the internet.

4) A better method than feeding/compiling/distributing 'save games' is needed. (there must be a way to only send the 'changed' data and not the whole save game each time for processing.) If the 'packet' size was small enough, then many, many more turns could be played in a relitively short time.

You don't send the save game to PBW; you only send Player Information files to PBW.

5) It would also be very nice if 'encounters' were handled in real-time.

Get the PBW Real Time client. It's in your SE4 Gold CD.

[ January 18, 2004, 15:54: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

It sounds to me that what you'd really like is improvments to TCP/IP. The only reason to use PBW vs TCP/IP for games were everyone is Online is that TCP/IP is slower for larger games.

Idealy what would be nice is to have improved TCP/IP for the start of the game and then when the turns start to take longer put in on PBW.

Edit: IF you find opening and closing the game after each PBW turn a pain try what I do. I have a .bat file on my desktop that will get me right into my turn for the game. Saves a lot of clicking and typing in of passwords.

[ January 18, 2004, 16:55: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">??? Is he not talking about SE4 tactical combat here?

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger David Gervais. I just got into my first PBW game too. There aren't a lot of Version 1.49 games to choose from, so I took over an empire. If you want a challenging experience, try that. I think maybe some players who abandon games do it because things have gone slightly wrong... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Hmmmm...let me see if I can get out of this mess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Originally posted by David E. Gervais:
1) The game should not close at the end of each turn. (this way the player could overview his/her empire while waiting for the next PBW turn to be available.)
Typical PBW games don't move at the speed of your first game there. When the next turn is coming in a day instead of ten minutes you aren't going to want to sit there waiting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


3) The player sould be notified in the game when the next turn is ready and have a 'Get next PBW turn' button/indicator.PBW Real Time Client does help with this, and auto launches your turn for you when it's ready. Although again, this is a only a factor because you are playing an extremely fast game. Typically in PBW game you aren't sitting around waiting for the next turn.

5) It would also be very nice if 'encounters' were handled in real-time.Not sure what you are suggesting here, but it sounds like you maybe are asking for tactical combat? In theory, I have no objection to tactical combat. However, I have not heard of a suggestion that sounds at all workable for more then a two player game. Tactical combat can take many minutes to resolve between two individuals, and in the mean time everybody not in combat is sitting around doing nothing.

As the other guy said, PBW wasn't designed to function as TCP/IP but to streamline teh file handling for PBEM. With RTC though it comes close to TCP/IP functionality.

[ January 18, 2004, 17:47: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

David: although I understand your concerns and mostly agree, really I think ONE thing MUST BE fixed yes or yes: WHY is not allowed to save the turn in simultaneous games??? Don't understand why Aaron doesn't fixed it yet... In games when you spent 30-60 minutes to do your moves, you could lose everything if your computer hang up or something like that...

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Thanks for the comments, (so far) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif to clarify one thing,..

5) It would also be very nice if 'encounters' were handled in real-time.

by this I mean when you 'encounter' other races and get to do the 'treaty thing'. It would be nice if a 'dialogue' opened up between the parties. (not just I propose this,.. accept, refuse?) My thoughts behind this are to make 'first encounters' (especially in PBW or any multiplayer) more dynamic.

My main feeling after playing PBW-Athon was that there was much interest and fun potential in having faster paced multiplayer games. Think of it like this, sure you can play a game of chess over the net with 1 or 2 turns a day over an extended period, but It hardly compares to a real-time game of 30-45 mins. (the game [chess] is still turn based, but there is a lot to be said for the 'pace' of a live game.)

As to the saving/loading. uploading/downloading, opening/closing, etc. I left the game feeling like the 'Mechanics' of PBW got in the way of the gameplay of PBW. IMHO The 'Mechanics' of multiplayer needs to be transparent and imbedded in the game. I shouldn't have to go to a website, log in a chat room, run MS Messenger and check my e-mail every 5 mins to enjoy the game.

Bottom line Playing PBW felt more like 'work' than 'play', and spreading the 'work' over days instead of hours does not IMHO reduce or eliminate the 'mechanical' tasks that are involved. There is definately room for improvement. I am hoping that togeather we can discuss alternate possibilities.

Nuf said, Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

P.S. The PBW game is a bLast, and I had/am having fun, but it left an aftertaste. Know what I mean?

[ January 18, 2004, 18:23: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

David, I don't diasgree there is room for improvment. However I sumbit the only reason you feel that the PBW mechanics got in the way of the game is that you have never tried to participate in a PBEM game of Se4 without it. You will find it's much superior to the alternative.

Also, if you try the RTC program I think you will find it eliminates a lot things you still take issue with. You can use it for your exsisting game that is still going on. It doesn't have a chat feature, but it totally automates the file handling and launches the executable.

Geoschmo

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, I did jump into the 'deep-end' by joining the PBW-Athon for my first venture into SE:Multiplayer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I totally understand the idea and funcionality of PBEM. It's a more leisurely pace where speed has little or no value. I'm not saying anything bad about PBEM. I'm just saying that personally I think there is much potential in having a faster paced game option available. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the TPC/IP option is more or less for 'networks' and not so much across the internet.

I'm having trouble putting my finger on what exactly is missing to have that kind of option. (faster gameplay in multiplayer) But after yesterday's game, I can tell you there is definately interest and potential if that kind of gameplay was added to SE:4/5.

I think this a worthy and worthwhile topic to discuss. (not how I feel about the PBW experience) But discuss the highs and lows of multiplayer and what can be done to enhance and improve that experience.

...follow the bouncing ball,.. Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or save that trouble and use the Mod Launcher...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, you are wrong. It is there for both options. It is not very well implemented, but is fine designed for internet play as well as network play.

[ January 18, 2004, 19:04: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Fyron, I was/am using the ModLauncher. It doesn't prevent the game from closing at the end of every turn.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So make a BAT file like DavidG did, or send an e-mail to aaron.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Use Trillian.

Or Wait till SE5 comes out.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

I have only participated in three or four of these multiplayer turn events, and from what I have seen, if well organized and well attended, they run realatively smoothly.

TCI/IP play has some areas for improvement, I sent Aaron an email on that a week or so ago.

PBEM I have done as well, very very slow.

PBW is by far the fastest method of game play for larger Groups of people. PBW processes the turn automatically, and gives everyone a rallying point to get their turns from.

The only limit to PBW are us who are on dial up.

In the first 50 turns of AUK, we averaged about 12 turns an hour once the game got going. The game Last night was a lot of fun and we processed 24 turn in little over 4 hours. That was better than I expected.

The next game will be started much earlier, medium tech start, STANDARD medium midlife map, no thrills and whistles. (To keep the size of the game file down.)

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was in response to DavidG, not to you...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So make a BAT file like DavidG did, or send an e-mail to aaron. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That doesn't keep the game from closing after ending your turn. Mod Launcher is still the way to go, as no need to make batch files or anything silly like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 18, 2004, 19:58: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or save that trouble and use the Mod Launcher...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bah I got better things to do than waste time with the 2 extra mouse clicks this requires.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Double click batch file, spend one second moving the mouse cursor between the 2 clicks of selecting the game and hitting Load Saved Game... ok...

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

So? Any ideas on how to improve Multiplayer in SE5?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Leave PBEM/PBW modes alone, as they are perfect, and fix the buggered TCP/IP mode. Make it send files to multiple Users at once, based on bandwidth available.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

agreed with seiv..

for 5


Well there really needs to be a game admin area...Where the game admin can go in and see what is going on in the game... View the scores and see the game itself.

And to make sure that the game admin does not use it when playing . Put a note each players log that the game admin has logged into the game to view it...


The largest improvement I can see is to work on the sim turn until it almost is sim....

And have the game admin more power in setting up games... Like i mentioned in a dev chat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Oh Yea... Save turn during a turn so you can come back and finish it....

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK Your way is the best. Mine sucks. Happy?

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Neither way saves much time over the other.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

When I play PBW-Athon games, this is the setup I use:

I have the pbw site open to the game's page. To download the file, I just open the .zip file instead (no saving to HD) and unzip to the savegame directory. The handy launcher is open and the game name is highlighted. I hit play saved game, game loads and I do my turn. Once done, quick upload to the site. Periodically I hit refresh to see if the next turn is ready. If not, keep surfing at Shrapnel, or another SE related site.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

The idea about only sending the information that has changed instead of the whole game file is interesting. Would speed things up some. However, it would have to offer both options because many people don't play every turn from the same machine. If the executable would create a complete game file and also a difference file then PBW could be setup to offer a choice of which file the player needed for their circumstances.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

1) The game should not close at the end of each turn. (this way the player could overview his/her empire while waiting for the next PBW turn to be available.)

I would agree with this. Once you finish your turn, it should go back to the Main Menu, so you can select another option.

There is 2 changes I would like to see.

1. As stated prevoiusly, saving the game mid session needs to be added. Some turns get pretty long, especially when communicating with many allies/enemies.

2. Editing of any communication you send should be enabled. If I send a communication and want to add something later, why shouldn't I be able to do that, because the game turn hasn't finished yet and nothing should have taken effect yet.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I noticed that the .plr file we send is always around 7-8k and the save game download is 400-500k (so far). I find it strange that the 6 players send in approx 48k of data (6x8k) and each have to then dl a 400+k file. it seems to me that much of what is in the save game file could be saved localy, or if the game is running then perhaps much of it would not be needed. (Send 8k and recieve 48k (the combined info processed by the server.) and have each local game play out the others moves.)

just a thought, Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

While that might save download time,you'd run into a couple of problems.

1- you'd have to process the turns. On big games this would possibily take longer than you would to download a complete turn.

2- Random Number Generators. In other words, you'd have to run the turn again. Including combat- which might turn out quite different than what actually happened because of differences in which shots hit.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

There is a lot more data that needs to be sent to the players each turn than they need to send to the host. All that they send back is a set of orders. The host sends out all of the information for the game. Breaking up the savegame into just what each player needs would be disastrous, as then players could not rely on sending each other the savegame file if they lost it, or it never reached them, etc. PBEM/PBW works perfectly as it is now. The only application for which your suggestions are good is TCP/IP.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This would be my current suggestions as well.


We need mod testing tools though if any one interested in making them.

Currently we have the SEIV Modder utility, but we need more. I could never get the turn BATCH file thingy to work.

Also a utility that we can use to create and or modify AI files like rapid research creation tools.

A program that will take all of the tech Area data and plug in the racial traits for your AI and press CREATE RESEARCH FILE, and it compiles a new research file based upon the tech Area data and the tech from the racial traits.

The same thing for Design Creation, except that it automatically creates designs that use the new technology and the racial specfic technolongy like weapons, engines, components, etc.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Admin area would be nice but that note suggestion won't work. If admin uses the view possibility but didn't upload anything, nobody would know.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The viewing of it should put a note in the turn file that is uploaded to the server, thereby forcing the notification to be uploaded on completion of the admin's next turn. To prevent the admin from simply closing and relaunching the game, the game should make a note when the viewer is used. When the game is relaunched, the note is read and written to the turn file when it's generated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

I like the save-in-mid-turn option.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But with PBW, the game host almost never uploads the turn anyways. He just plays like a regular player, and the PBW server processes the turns. So, the turn file is generated on a different computer than the host would be using to cheat...

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

I just tried a TCP/IP game with rollo, and although it had a bug where the player turns were not being sent (forcing the host to process a turn and have the AI play for the second player)

It did seem to be a very good method of play. I now agree with you all,.. 'Don't touch the PBEM or PBW' just fix the TCP/IP mode of play.

I can see 10 turns/hour being easily pumped out in this tcp/mode.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Update,..

Rollo and I tried the PlayByWeb_RealtimeClient that comes on the se4:Gold CD and it works really nice. I think that if anyone wants to have another PBW-Athon that this option should be given serious consideration.

there was only one thing that needs tweaking, the rtc does not like the use of mods. the path.txt file must be edited to point to the mod dir, but even with this, the savegame folder contents must be moved to the default savegame and the mod savegame folder then deleted. Other than that, it worked like a charm.

Just thought I'd let you know how that experiment went.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Yes, RTC alone does not support mods. The one oddball thing is that your mods cannot have a savegame folder. They musr default to the stock savegame folder, otherwise the modpicker can't find the .plr file to upload it when you are done. It will download and let you play your turn, assuming you have changed the path.txt file, but it won't be able to upload the .plr file to PBW.

As far as changing the path.txt file, any method works for that, depending on your taste. I have a method that works fairly well for me though. I use Matryx's Mod picker.

1. Launch modpicker and click the mod in the left-hand list, and then click the "Play SEIV" button in the bottom left.

2. Once Se4 starts, click "Quit Game" in lower right hand corner of SE4 start screen. Don't close the mod picker though. This rewrites the path.txt file.

3. Launch RTC and select your modded game. Play.

4. When you are done playing, click "none" in mod picker left-hand list and click "Play SEIV" button. Quit SE4 and close modpicker. This changes your path.txt back to none.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Yeah, I also use the ModLauncher. but it seems a bit extreem to run a game from the ModLauncher just to have the path text edited for you. And, while playing using the RTC you would have an extra window/program running that is of no use to the RTC.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Edit: oh, and the RTC is basically used for when you are playing a good sized session of se4. so the having to edit the path.txt seems such a minor task if you only need to do it once at the beginning of the game session. (when finished with the RTC session and you want to play the same mod that you used in the RTC/PBW game you must recreate the savegame folder before you can play. It would be nice if the RTC had a tiny patch to fix this 'path' problem. then the world would be happy.)

[ January 27, 2004, 10:39: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

Played another (3rd time) TCP/IP game for approx. 6 hours. The game played error free for approx 6 hours, when "we" finally had to quit for lack of sleep!
I have a couple of questions, though. We generated some AI's because I could not figure out how to just add the AI's we wanted. Also, Is there no tactical battles in this play mode? Strategic is fine, but was just curious anyways. BTW, we used the TDM-Modpack. Very impressive mod. Wonderful program.

[ January 29, 2004, 04:08: Message edited by: eddieballgame ]

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

if aaron could build something like the RTC and the mod launcher into se5 it would totaly rock.

Re: PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)
 

I would like to see that when you set up you race for multiplayer, you are able to use an auto message when you encounter another race.
Meaning, that when you make first contact with another player, you dont get only a first contact message and a race portrait, but also an auto message like "hello we are the alfkj empire, we will purge you from the galaxy! have a nice day."