future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

me and my dad were driving around and i mentioned that given humanity's psychology, any first contact ships we send out should have a lawyer, for the natives.

that got me thinking, we got enough people and enough knowledgable people here to put together a framework for interstellar law. something like this has been done for play-by-committee, i know that much, but that's probably just upper-government stuff and just enough for the game. i'm thinking something that could actually be used as the framework for an interstellar civilization in the future.

or at least a good discussion.

so, what might we need to govern/regulate/tax/police/military in the future and how might we go about that? or should we throw any or all of those out?

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

No! We need a frontier for all the outcasts of society to go to... what would you do if the president of the United States ruled the moon and Mars and the third planet from Alpha Centauri as well?!? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif That's the problem with the world today - there's nowhere for anyone to go and set up a new free society and rebel from the existing societies... only through space travel will we ever find freedom!

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

so, obviously you favor, at most, a loose alliance. if you'll note, i made provision for discussion's on how that might be run...or not be run. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

but why should the outcasts be relegated to a rough life on the frontier? why can't civilization accomadate them to?

[ January 31, 2004, 03:10: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

How would an Interplanetary Society function?

I guess that would depend upon how long it took for communications to travel about that society.

For example, if there was a lag of hours/days or days/weeks for communications/travel between planets, you would certainly have to have a LOT of local authority. Whereas, in the case of near instantaneous communication/travel, a more centralized authority would be possible.

Also are there hostile elements out there on the fringes? That would tend to favor a centralized authority as well...

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because the outcasts are too smart to give civilization a chance to screw them over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">actually, that seems like another point for debat.

i think that if there where hostile elements within reasonable space travel, we'd already be conquered.

well, that's kinda vague.

um, no conspiracy theory's on that Last please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 31, 2004, 04:59: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

what, all these sf buffs and nobody's interested?

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

IMO, we don't have enough information to make useful predictions. Interplanetary law will evolve organically, based on immediate needs.

Frex, when we have interplanetary colonies, what will happen when one tries to declare independence? Whether they can do it will depend a lot on who founded the colony and what its purpose was.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

interstellar empire possibilites will depend on two things: communication and travel time

without high ftl communication and travel, no empire is possible
its possible, just barely, to hold an empire together with travel and communication time measured in weeks
more than that, and it simply won't work long term - if it is six weeks between when a colony rebels and you find out about it, and another six weeks to get any forces there to do something, the rebel colony will be pretty much lost to the empire by the time the troops arrive
with delay measured in weeks, a loose confederacy is about the most that is possible

if travel/communications measured in years due to non-ftl travel, no empire possible beyond local star system

if travel/communications measured in days or less, pick a government - any large-scale government that has worked for a time on earth could work for a time in space - with the proviso that people could flee a long long ways

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

Likely, there would only be pockets of 'civilization' where there are habitable systems. Each group would answer only to themselves and have very little or no contact with the other systems. That is, unless a method of FTL travel and communication is devised. In that case, a traditional empire like association may be possible, still depending on how much faster than light the communication and travel were.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

I agree that if there is no FTL communications, there would be local authority control. Without effective communications to govern colonies, no authority would realistically take place.

Has anyone read the two Frank Herbert books;'The Jesus Incident' and 'The Lazarus Effect'? (those are the titles if my memory serves me correct) 'Jesus Incident' was based around the concept of no FTL communications or travel and a ship named "Ship" (notice capital 'S' like capital 'G' in 'God'.) Ship went thruout the universe cloning humans from the genetic material on board and training these folks (with their inherited traits and abilities) to establish colonies. 'Lazarus Effect' was a book about the 'end results' of one of the colonies.

I won't spoil the books by telling the story, but the concept was an interesting twist on celestial 'seeding' of human colonies. A good read for SF fans IMO....

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

Amazon {link} says those are the middle two in a series of four. Sounds interesting, though.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

so, the first task is to arbitrarly decide on the possible space travel available? ok, then, arbitrarly, ion engines, cheap, low-tech, relativily. solar sail, no fuel required, low pay-load, requires stable civilization to build and mantain laser. ramscoop, can only be used in areas of high hydrogen density, high tech, fastest.

solar sails can be laser-decelerated from the other end by detaching part of the solar sail to use as a reflecter. so said, i think, Arther C. Clarke in a book i have.

and i'll let more knowledgeable people figure out how fast those might be in the future. although the Last projection i heard for solar sails, which was a while ago, was 0.001g.

should make an interesting galaxy to figure out stuff for.

ripping off-err, 'researching' Larry Niven is allowed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

but if anyone even *thinks* about introducing a feline race i'll whack them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

anyone know any other possible, non-FTL engines? no unknown science, predictable technology only.

[ February 02, 2004, 23:09: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

Assuming based upon current technology that it takes 6 months - 12 months to travel to mars. It would have to be a self governing colony with contact with earth - FTL communications might allow a limited empire but FTL would be the only thing that succeeds.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

This topic is mute for there is no life out there or non that we will at least meet in the next 10 trillion years.

[ February 02, 2004, 23:30: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">not required for the discussion. the discussion is about 'how might we hold together some sort of civilization at interplanetory distances?'
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">true, but still, the question is 'how might that work?'

and it need not be an empire. i said civilization. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 02, 2004, 23:35: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

Ok, I will rephrase, we won't.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">not even an interstellar news network? 'all the news, nothing but the news and all the obselete news?' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

ever read Larry Niven's man-kzinn wars series? very bloody, but he has two semi-functioning civilizations with STL.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

Sorry Narf, I am really depressed right now. I should have said that it is not going to happen because we will never colonize another planet. Even if we did, the colony would fail, or just be a military science outpost.

Secondly if the utter complete unlikelyhood that we did colonize another planet, it would go much like inter nation relations go now. So again, it simply is not worth it.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

anything not tried will invaribly fail. anything tried may succeed.

have you tried anti-depressants? they work for me.

besides, britain may have lost a colony when the us rebelled, but the world gained a country.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep, maybe really you have not your best day, or maybe I'm too optimistic... but I'm pretty sure that if the mankind doesn't destroy himself before this, our home system will be colonized and even some planets terraformed (Mars, Venus as example). Of course that think it will not happen soon (a millennium?).
But colonize beyond our home system... think the probabilities are not so good.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I would support this view.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i would say the accomplishments of the human race outweigh the petty politics of nations.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I'm the pessimistic now.
Really do you think the humans would change? Don't think so. In my view, we will continue killing our brothers for a piece of land or for a God that doesn't exist...
I think the reptilian part of our brain will be still there... and something different would mean that we evolved in a new and better race (In my view will not happen, at least soon).

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

how are we going to kill each other at 50+ly? really, if you're going to take that view, i'd think you'd like space colony's.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I read somewhere that it is possible to use controlled nuclear explosions as an engine.
Sort of a putt-putt-putt engine with a nuclear explosion as each putt! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Just don't get too close to the business end!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As anyone can guess this tech would require massive shielding; but should allow a large payload...

As far as the likelyhood of colonizing other planets - I think that if a habitable planet is descovered (or made) and the tech exists to get there reasonably easy; then colonization WILL happen. It will be inevitable!

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

The thing about the nuclear explosion (or Orion) engines is they work better the bigger they get. A bit like fusion reactors, even if the concept is totally different.

_Footfall_ had one of these, and described the main problem with them when it launched as such..

"God was knocking, and he wanted in BAD."

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

Wouldn't that type of engine pollute space with radioactive waste? Sure, space is big and the stuff coming out of the engine is a relatively small amount, but in the long term if we have lots of ships like that flying around, it can't be good, can it?

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

compared to the fusion reactions of all those stars?

nuclear engens make not a dent

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

Yes, there is no need to wary about it. The level of radioactivity from solar wind alone can kill a man without shielding. If we send all our nukes to space and detonate them, there would be no detectable change in the level of radiation.

Orion project was very well designed indeed. They developed low yield warheads(<0.1kT) with shaped bLast projection to maximize the thrust.

Re: future Interplanetary Civilization discussion.
 

A while back someone posted a very long and very interesting article/ discourse from "Culture" author Iain M Banks, that was quite appropriate to this thread.

Basically, he said that his Culture universe had grown up the way it is because once people have the ability to travel freely in space and create their own living environments wherever they like, then all society will tend towards anarchy.
His reasoning is that it will suddenly become very difficult to impose control on populations. If people don't like what you're telling them to do then all they have to do is pack up and live somewhere else. There's no shortage of living space out there, and when people can move freely in 3 dimensions it's very hard to wall them in and stop them escaping your influence. You could chase them down, but in the end all you can do is threaten to destroy them and- ultimately- such destruction would be against your own interests.

I think he is thinking a few hundred years of technology ahead of this thread (basically he requires that energy is plentiful, space travel is fairly trivial and sustainable long term living conditions can be artificially created in space or on some dead world), but overall I think his is a very sensible concept, and it might yet come to pass.

It certainly would be nice to have unlimited living space- You could solve half the world's conflicts overnight. Imagine saying to the Palestinians and the Israelis: "OK guys, have an entire planet each. You can build your nations there and live however the hell you like. It might not be the holy land but we'll set up a spaceport just outside Jerusalem and let you come visit any time you like."