Marketing SE V
 

I was just reading through a few older reviews of Space Empires IV and noticed that many of those reviewing the game noted that previous Version of Space Empires were a little known secret because of poor marketing and publicity.

Now we all know that Shrapnel has done a great job marketing SE IV, as has word of mouth and PG Gamers favorable review of both SEIV and SEIV Gold. However, I for one feel that a lot more could have been done in the way of marketing and hope that with the success of SE IV, both Shrapnel and MM will seriously and aggressively market SE V.

What struck me as very aggervating was when I was in the EB Game store at the mall the other day and some guys were talking about how much they wanted a true 4 x game. They talked about how bad MOO3 was and how the genra has just fallen flat. I listened for a bit while reading up on some of the game magazines when I felt the time was right, I asked one of them if they had tried SEIV.

"SE IV? What the hell is SE IV?"

So I told him. I could see he thought I was insane, but I told him to run up to the library and see for himself. (They have computers there).

The guy behind the counter, when asked if he could get them a copy of SEIV, replied no, that game is a dos game and most PC's won't even run it.

This floored me and prompted me to point out that he was misinformed. The point being, if a guy who sells games doesn't even KNOW about a game that many people wish they could play, but don't even know that the very game they are wishing for has been out for nearly four years now, then what hope is there for Space Empires V.

Granted, these guys probably live in a cave, and the store clerk looked more like a Mortal Combat PS2 player than a real PC gamer.

I am no marketing guy, I know nothing about the industry or even profess to understand on line marketing or business plans, but I do know one thing, if people don't know about your game, they won't buy it.

Hell 90% of the people at the MOO3 forums didn't even know SE IV exsisted until after MOO3 was released and they came to the forum to ***** about how bad the game was. I did a lot of posting there promoting, with profession courtesy to MOO3 of course, about the wonders of Space Empires IV.

Taking into account my complete lack of skill in marketing, would it be a plausable concept to send out flyers to all the stores that sell PC games telling them that you have a product, that they can buy at a discount in bulk from shrapnel, that people are interested in buying? Do all the sales have to be On Line sales?

Again, I know nothing about marketing and I am not critizing shrapnel at all. I just love the game and want other to discover it.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Shrapnel has repeatedly said they can't find a retailer that offers fair terms.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

That is true, and it is a really sad thing to be sure.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I did the same thing in my local EB store. My dad and I just finished a trip to the pool hall and as always we stop in the EB store just to look around. I got into a converstion with some other gamers about a great and very old Star Wars game. After that I mention to the man working there if he has EVER played or heard of SE4. You can guess the answer on that one! NO. I explaned the game a little and told him the web site to malfador. He said that sounds cool and is going to look at. I also told him about their new game coming out soon(Starfury). Word of mouth has really made this game sell in my opinion. A friend told me about it and I love it. I have some else interested in the game also(Josh and I are always talking about SE4 so many of the people we know have heard about.Thus they say to them selves "lets see what these nuts are talking" and request the game). I do wish malfador the best with Se5 because of great games like SE4. They deserve to be as big as Nintendo or Sony in the world of games. That is how much I enjoy MM games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Marketing SE V
 

I was looking into buying Imperium Galactica Alliances when I heard about Space Empires IV. NO ONE in any electronic game store I was in ever heard of it. It's hard to find out about the game unless you stumble across it reading game reviews.

Alas, maybe I'll actually have the doe-re-me to purchase it soon.

Does any other Canadian retailers carry the title? (perhaps at a slightly lower cost? I hate to sound cheap, but the money tree I'm growing isn't growing as fast as I would like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I've downloaded the Demo; I'm gonna try the game out and see if I can figure it out.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

You could probably save a few dollars by buying the game from Chips & Bits (USA) or Military Hobbies (Canada), and using regular mail to ship it.
http://www.chipsbits.com/
http://www.militaryhobbies.com/

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Here's an idea, we all know that SE:V is in the works and that SE:IV Gold can still hold it's own against many of the 'retail' 4x games out there.

..What if,.. Shrapnel made more serious efforts to find a retail outlet for SE:IV Gold. And when they do, (In spite of a lower intake of $$$) place an ad for SE:V in all the retail Versions and see what happens.

I see two things happining,..

1) The retail market (customers) would be made aware of the wonderful Space Empires franchise. (the number of sales might surprise them and they might find that selling more for less $ in the case of SE would be better than selling less for more $)

2) SE:V would have an excellent marketing gimmick, what better way to promote a new game than to let a new audience discover SE through an already excellent game.

I also think that finding and making 'bulk' sales of SE:IV Gold to retail outlets would be a great idea to test the retail waters. You could also start small and ask the existing fan-base to help. (Ask them to go to their local indipendant retailer and ask if they would be interested in obtaining say 10 copies of SE:IV Gold at a reduced price to make it available in their store. There is a good selling point to this method, the game would be a kind of 'exclusive' title for the small store and that in turn might help them to promote it. "Hey check out this 4x game, It is only available Online, but I made a deal to bring it to my customers." Even if the store pays 20$ and sells it for the same price as it is Online. The fact that the customer does not have to pay shipping and handling will be like an instant rebate. Heck, you could even give the fans some incentive to help get se4Gold into the small indipendant stores. (Sell 10 copies of se4:Gold and get $20 off SE:V and free shipping.)

Just a thought, basically I agree with Atrocities,.. more marketing needs to be done for SE:V. There is so much untapped potential out there that it's a shame the SE franchise is not more known.

nuf said, Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ February 09, 2004, 11:07: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

Re: Marketing SE V
 

You might be able to, with a serious amount of bush beating, to get Se4/se5 into some small independant computer stores. The problem is that these stores represent such a miniscule amount of the market out there, you are basically no better off as far as exposure then you are sticking to Online sales only. And the resources expended could have gone towards someting that would have more of a return.

The only way you are going to get the kind of exposure we would all like for the series is to get it placed on teh shelves of the major computer stores and department stores. But that is imposible. You can't walk into your local Walmart, Target, or Compusa and have the manager buy a few copies and stick on the shelf. Retail doesn't work that way anymore, if it ever did. It's all about shelfspace. And the major distributors work directly with the national and regional chains in that regard. You can't just get a few copies into one store.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Yes, that is the problem - marketing doesn't work any more. Its all about big business to big business, more like mafia than free retail.
The only way to promote SE is by telling everyone and advertising it on every board where disappointed buyers of yet another bad strategy game lurk, like on the MOO3 Boards. Marketing would be easier though, if MM could do a downloadable Version. Or at least for us poor Europeans, have a european distributor who charges less than game plus single postage costs from US plus profit margin. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Atrocities could be the N.W. area Rep. for Shrapnel Games! Seriously though. I work part time at the Photo/Electronics dept. for Fred Meyer (think Walmart but not as evil). I'm always recommending Space Empires IV. Honest to a fault I also talked people out of MOO3. Yeah maybe I might not make sales quotas but at least no one will be mad at me for a bad recommendation.
I think they could at least advertise a little bit more. Shrapnel games does tend to cater to turn based war gamers, not the twitchy RTS that are so prevalent (that a word?) in society now.
Would a little ad in a magazine or gamespot hurt?

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Why not simply go to malls and parking lots and pass out fliers or an Avon style marketing.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

To be honest, I kind of like Space Empires as our little secret. I'd hate to see a bunch of low-attention span gamers come in and make all sorts of mischief. Of course, I also want to see some success for MM and Shrapnel - so perhaps a healthy compromise where we all buy the game twice? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Marketing SE V
 

I don't think "getting a game onto retail shelves" is going to help much. Games can exist on store shelves and still be ignored by the moronic masses and their clueless gift-shopping relatives. Most games on retail shelves lose money for the publisher and developer, because the retail stores squeeze almost all of the sales money for themselves. And, even many pretty hard-core gamers would wait to get a deal from retail bargain bins and sales, rather than buying the game directly from Shrapnel. Total rewards from such a shift might even go down. Er, I could ramble on with various conjecture, but I've a headache and other things to do. The magazine coverage (reviews) is probably the most effective channel. Some magazine and/or web banner ads after the reviews go out might also help, though print mag ads are so expensive that I'd doubt worthwhile sales returns for a non-eye-candy-feast game. Fans subtley hitting semi-relevant forums and newsGroups periodically (such as forums for lamer but better-advertized conquest games) with plugs and links would probably help a lot, it seems to me.

Ergh, headache.

PvK

Re: Marketing SE V
 

The internet is becoming a much more viaable and profitable outlet for games makers ie shrapnel and MM deal - that said good promotion on the web will ensure profitability - the games in retail stores suck. Just as long as they make reasonable profits then they can keep the game coming along.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

I used to play a game many years ago called STARS!. I moved overseas for a while so i quit but the game makers, whose name i forget, were saying that STARS! supernova was going to be made. When i came back I checked their website but although they had made the game and there was a community they couldn't get it published because no distributor was interested and after 9/11 the market apparently went down the toilet. Then about a year and a half ago I was going through a catalogue I get from this games stockists and stuck in the middle of the computer games section was a small description of something called space empires3 and 4Gold. The advert said it came without a box and was only in shrinkwrap, and the price was well above a normal game. I was looking for a 4x game to play so I ordered it and apart from a small time after I got bored with single player and before I found pbw I havn't gone a day without playing it. Obviously the high price was because SE4Gold wasn't released commerically, by which i mean it wasn't in 20 boxes on the shelves of EBgames. It goes to show though that the best games aren't just those sold by the major stores and you have to be lucky to come across them.

I have a terrible memory. On second thoughts its MOO3 i quit playing when i got bored with the single player game.....after 3 games.

[ February 10, 2004, 08:30: Message edited by: Randallw ]

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Space Empires house parties! Direct sales. Turn all of us addicts into pushers. Multi-level commisions. A vast, world wide pyramid scheme with our boys Aaron and Richard sitting comfortably on the top. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Space Empires house parties! Direct sales. Turn all of us addicts into pushers. Multi-level commisions. A vast, world wide pyramid scheme with our boys Aaron and Richard sitting comfortably on the top. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, more and more like a cult every day.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

We should all dress up as Phong/ Druk/ EEE and go hand out demo CDs in town centres and games/ sciffy conventions.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It would be hard to dress up as an EEE wouldn't it? I mean little blue bubbles?

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Well, if it hadn't been for a 3 paragraph review of SE4 Gold in PC Gamer, I would probably never have heard of the game. So the reviews do work. but if people miss that particular issue, or just glance at it, they still might miss this great game. Maybe some small ads might help, but I know that's an expansive alternative. Maybe in the future, when SEV is ready to come one, they could have a review. Then in the future, when MM releases patches, maybe they could be in the form of an upgrade or some such thing that would warrant another review in the magazines? Just a suggestion.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It would be hard to dress up as an EEE wouldn't it? I mean little blue bubbles? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

It could be a "team" costume. Each persson could be hiding inside am opaque blob inside the protoplasm. Or, a single person could hide inside the nucleus. Actually sounds pretty impressive if you could pull it off. Maybe you could get national TV coverage - that's the ticket!!

PvK

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Only way I found out about the game was through game reviews. I was looking for a good 4X game and thought Imperium Galactica 2 would be good, and stumbled across SEIV.

Got me interested anyway.

And never underestimate word of mouth. Specially over the internet. It becomes a marketing tool itself.

( check out http://gamerankings.com, good review site. Well, I like it anyway!)

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Nope. MLM, all the way.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

The only reason I heard about SE4Gold was because of PC Gamer. I read an article about some of the lesesr known publishers out there, and it mentioned a 4x game... so I figured I'd give it a try. $45 and several empires later, here I am!

I think that the best (and maybe even the cheapest) way of getting a game out there is by sending it to reputable sites/magazines that review games(PC gamer and Gamespot for example).

Re: Marketing SE V
 

You know i found the shareware Version of SE3 brought the registered Version. Found out about SE4 brought it and love it much improved lets hope SE5 is much more expansive and utilises increasin computer power much more. Until it comes out i would like to see more ongoing SE4 patches and upgrades say up to Version 2.5 ?

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I feel the same way; our own little treehouse, safely tucked away from the rest of the internet, away from internet cooties http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Marketing SE V
 

This is also called 'viral marketing' and is likely to get more and more difficult because of all the virus and spam problems plaguing the net. People will have to get more wary about cute emails 'from friends' and anti-spam/anti-virus filters will become more and more persnickety.

'Ordinary' marketing via the Internet is not that difficult or expensive anyway. MM just needs a truly excellent game and a few good reviews on the game sites. SE IV is good but not really excellent. It has some problems, like no way to control micro-management. The reason it got noticed by so many after the debacle of MOO 3 is that it doesn't suck as much as MOO 3. If it were really great it would have sold millions of copies with all the notice it got.

[ February 13, 2004, 02:45: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Marketing SE V
 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Memetic marketting. You create an advert so cool/funny/entertaining that everyone emails it to their friends who
send it to their friends...

I recommend a little game: Druk-man or such ('mineral planets are the best!'). You stick a great big advert for SE5 on it and then release it into the wild. Within a month there could be thousands of potential customers checking out Malfador's site.

A few such games were created and posted here a while back. I remember there was a simple scrolling shooter that used graphics from SE4. Something along those lines would be ideal.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was going to write that in my post the first time 'round, but Last time I did that someone posted "I don't think it's a good idea to write viruses, even for marketting purposes" and the whole thread wandered off into definitions of viral marketting for a few pages...

Re: Marketing SE V
 

adds in popular commics such as PVP. they do some prety funny adds. dotn know how much he would charge for a thing like that though.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's true. This game will only ever be so popular, just for the fact that it doesn't have "mad tyte graphics" or crap like that. Which is fine by me, as long as the game is fun, I could care less.

However, SE4 is not reaching its potential fanbase at all. This game has been out for 4 years, and I just heard about it on the galactic civilizations Boards a few days ago. I also keep pretty good track of my strategy games, so not to brag or anything but I was quite surprised that this game eluded me for so long.

My recommendations(not that they matter) - Stay away from retail, but try harder to get the word out. Many people want a 4x space strat game, but thing Moo3 is their only option. If you put some ads out on the gaming websites, maybe even take a few ads out in the magazines, I'm sure your sales would sore. Getting the occasional review in CGW or PC gamer wouldn't hurt either(This may have happened, I don't know tho).

One final thing, allow purchasers of the ame to download it while they are waiting for it to ship http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Can't wait for my copy to come wednesday (I hope)

Later

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Yeah the marketing aspect of this franchise is somewhat lacking, indeed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If not for Atrocities and his appearance on a outdated BoTF (Birth of the Federation) message board I doubt i'd ever have heard of this brilliant little gem of a game. I started doing my homework on it and was surprised at how little there was and how many broken links there were. If i had stumbled upon it by any other means I'd probably have decided it was a dead game.

Thank goodness for that one in a million shot of me ending up on some obscure message board (once or twice every six monthes I search for BoTF2 news) and reading Atrocities post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Marketing SE V
 

BOTF was a great game and I hope those modding it can make a BOTF 2.

The one thing they did was market that game. When it sold it sold a hell of a lot of copies.

If Shrapnel and Malfador could aford to take out an add in just one game magazine highlighting all the games they offer, then sales would increase.

Everytime someone take a moment to mention SEIV, Dominions2, and Starfury, along with other fine Shrapnel games, people come check them out and eventually buy them.

Word of mouth is great, but print adds are always better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif More eyes see an add than read a forum.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Why not make a mass email campaign to all email addresses you can find with subjects such as :

"Get a bigger 4x game"
"Get your 4x drug in our Online store"
"Last longer then M@ster 0f 0r!0n..."
"Please your wife all night long with SEV"
"Are you satisfied with your 4x game ?"

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Marketing SE V
 

In some states that is now considered as spam and a company can be sued or fined for it. Good idea, bad timing.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

uhm this is mainly off topic, but has SE V been announced recently or what ? I didnt even know this game is in production/development ?!?

Is there any official word out yet ?

Re: Marketing SE V
 

SE5 is probably not going to be released until late 2005 or so. So don't hold your breath! Right now there really isn't any "official" word, mostly just speculation.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Baron Munchausen said:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or to be more accurate: There are no excellent games, just one good game: SEIV!

Baron, I've played a lot of games. SEIV is by far, hands down, the best game I've ever played, period!
If SEIV is only good, then the next best is only mediocre.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

I remember a review in PC Gamer for SE4. If I remember right SE4 got a good rating. 86% is a strong game in their rating system.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">David Gervias has said he's working on the graphics. official enough for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Marketing SE V
 

[/qb][/quote]David Gervias has said he's working on the graphics. official enough for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [/QB][/quote]

Sweet!

Re: Marketing SE V
 

it's probably concept art, at this date.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">PennyArcade did this for a few games, the work was good, but they probably charge top dollar. I wouldn't mind seeing a SEIV graphic novel (comic book, its a darned comic book I tells ya!). Publishing that though and distributing it would probably have as much trouble as distrubuting SEIV.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">David Gervias has said he's working on the graphics. official enough for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Haha forgot about that. Guess that does make it official.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Late 2005 - thats still a bloody long wait - more games are likley in that time.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is the same as it was for SEIV. So? Few of them are likely to be in SE's genre and fewer will have the sort of quality MM ussually does.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Hi All:

Great thread! Sorry it has taken me so long to see it. Hope you don't mind if I post here and give you Shrapnel's take on marketing the Space Empires franchise...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Did you know that most of the major mags want $15,000 to $18,000 for a one page ad? The key here is what will that 18 grand buy you? It is a known fact that advertising has changed in the Last 15 years. Where advertising used to mean quick dollars, it is now more of a way to brand a company - create name brand awareness. Gone are the days of running an ad and waiting for the dollars to role in. The advertising industry says that people must see an ad 3-4 times before it gains recognition (there is alot out there competing for their attention). That's alot of money. I have been told by major publishers that they wouldn't advertise in the Gaming mags, if it wasn't a requiremnt for getting your games into retail stores. We ran a full page ad in one of the magazines in 2001 and guess what? We didn't even see an increase in site traffic! It would take many ads over many months for this to pay off and that is just too expensive.

Now, speaking of retail stores. The problem with traditional electronics retail is the short shelf life our games would have in these stores. If you don't sell 100,000 copies in a month, then you are going to be discounted (the major retailers use a powerful ploy- either cut our cost in half or take back all the product that hasn't sold). The next thing you know you are in the bargain bins - the average time a game remains at full retail in the major chains is somewhere under 45 days. Now you have a franchise that is considered 'discount'. Who here thinks that SEIV is a discount title?

Now you may ask why wouldn't SEIV sell 100,000 units at retail? That is simple. Look at what it is competing with. Most games at retail have simplified game play and $1 million graphics budgets. The key to selling SEIV is the ability to set down with a demo and see all it has to offer. You can't do this at retail. You have to get your sales off the pictures on the back of the box - it has to be eye candy intensive. The retail shops have no way for you to 'try before you buy'. Plus the 'average' retail chain store gamer is looking for, shall we say, less challenging gameplay. They don't want to work too hard at figuring out how to make things happen. In other words, the gaming masses aren't going to buy SEIV in its current incarnation. It would need to be made simpler. Less not more. Raise our hand if that is what you want?

Now I haven't even mentioned the shelf space buys, the catalogue buys, and all the other expensive ways that the retailers actually use to make money. Do you want you game spine out on the shelf or face out (face out costs money). Do you want to be on the new release shelf (more money). If you do pay this money then you have to make sure you are getting what you paid for. Ubisoft employs people to go around to the retailers and make sure they are actually face out on the shelfs (do you really think the high-school kid that is stocking the shelves cares one bit whether the game is face out - after all he doesn't make any more money for doing this).

Okay, we'll take your game on - just buy this one page ad in our catalogue - only $20,000.

Oh, you don't want any of these things. Well, we will still take it on, but now we have to buy it at $17.95 - that means the publisher has to sell it to distribution for under $15.00. Oh and you want 3 months before you pay us, and you will only pay for those games that sold. Not all that you ordered. And what is this, you hold 20% back for returns and allowances. Great deal!

The pure fact is that it is hard to make money at retail. The big publishers lose money on 80-90% of their titles. The key is: one hit and you're Golden. But, and here is the catch, no 'hardcore' strategy game will ever be Golden at retail.

Re: Marketing SE V
 

Don't take this the wrong way. But I like this small community (compared to other gaming communities). Most of you I recognise (well on the forum that is) and I also can predict rather well how you people react to questions. I also know who to turn to if I have a problem.
It's nice to know the larger part of the community. It also provides a strong bond between the players, their game and the company.
You really think fans of Warcraft 3 give a damn about Blizzard? Nope, as long as Blizzard is making add on's for this horrendous game they are happy. But if MM should go wrong we all jump in to help. There is more concern for the game, the people on the forum and the company when you have a small community.
But I do hope MM will and can release SE V, after all you can't live from good idea's and debts.

Edit: Many, many, many typos!

[ March 23, 2004, 17:21: Message edited by: Timstone ]