Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Okey Dokey. I have thrown together something like what we talked about in the Koth thread. I call it the "Balanced System Mod v1.0". I posted it to the PBW file library so anyone can get it that wants it. I won't put a link to dl it in the thread here because until the DNS problem is straigtened out it wouldn't work anyway.

What I found was I could produce a perfectly balanced quadrant, from a number of facilities perspective, by restricting players form choosing the none atmosphere. Actually there is nothing preventing them from choosing none atmosphere, but doing so will put them at a significant disadvantage in the game.

What this doesn't balance is the planetary values. Ooo, maybe I should have tweaked the ranges in the settings.txt to take care of that as well. Version 1.1 on the way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Here's the modinfo text:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What this doesn't balance is the planetary values. Ooo, maybe I should have tweaked the ranges in the settings.txt to take care of that as well. Version 1.1 on the way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Ok, Version 1.1 is up. This has got to be some sort of record for time between posted Versions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Changes:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hardly! Well, unless you are not counting fixed copies of a mod... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

ahh so that is how you overcame the none gas problem with balance.

Removed it.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually in the previous form of this idea I didn't do that. The none type was a valid choice. This idea was something I came up with this morning actually. It's quite a bit simpiler to execute then the previous. And it has the advantage of having the systems be completely balanced. Before the quadrant was balanced on avarage, but there were small differences between systems.

To allow for all atmosphere types and still have every system be balanced would require a lot more planets per system. Like two or three times as many. 12 is a lot already I think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

I was setting up a balance as well..

Ring 1 had all the different combo for rock planets ( huge ) then as moons the ice and gas combo's

Then Ring 2 had large planets

Ring 3 had med planets

Ring 4 had small

Ring 5 had small

Cause Tiny sucks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And this was the only system available.

Repeated over and over.

Thus equal systems.

The only problem was the Gas and None question.

How to equalize that.

I would like to resolve that.
question

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

oh yea i also set the planet value to max 200 and increased the cargo space by 2x for all planet sizes...

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Sounds like a pretty boring map. How sad that people are so insanely competitive that they must have whined so much about unbalanced maps that they prompted you to make this.

Edit: Whats next? A grid map with nothing but medium Oxygen planets with 100%/100%/100% values? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ February 10, 2004, 15:25: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

gee david... i do not think most people care about what the maps looks like when their looking for a competely balanced game.

As it is balanced game play is the goal here.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Well boring is subjective. And saying someone is insanely competative isn't really waranted. If the idea is for a competative game there is nothing wrong with wanting a balanced start for all players. It's not like anyone is suggestion you have to play your games this way. There is room for many different styles.

As "boring" as this map would be, it's got a lot more going on then a chess board, and that's been played for centuries and many people find it quite stimulating.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

In my first KOTH game I was stuck behind a supermassive black hole and lost over half of my ships because of it. I lost the game.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

This may be a dumb question, but I'm new around here... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What is " KOTH "?

Thanks!

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

KOTH

King
Of
The
Hill

A competition pbw gaming system.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Just a quick question to Shrapnel, are you just a new member, or are you connected to Shrapnel Games?

The avatar name you using is interesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif What makes you think that I think that?

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Basically we are just trying to come up with a way to eliminate the overwhelming effects the map can have in a short game. In a game with more people, having a crappy start isn't necesarily the kiss of death. You can play the diplomacy thing and maybe find a way out of your situation. Even if it's hopeless, hanging around can be interesting. Role playing, or just trying to have an impact in what happens, even if you can't win, are perfectly legitimate objectives. But in a 1v1 game, it's all about killing the other guy as fast as you can. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If he's only got 3 or 4 usable planets within colony ship range from his homeworld, while you've got 30 (That sounds like a drastic difference, but I have seen it in real games) it's not really much fun for the loser, or the winner. Yeah, you could say that's part of the game and the luck of the draw and all. But if that's the case you might as well not play the game and just flip a coin to see who wins. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A balanced map won't be for everybody. Even in 1v1 games probably noone will use it all the time and some may not want to use it ever. But there's a place for it. You could make random maps and edit with starting placement, but it's kind of druge work honestly. And even then you might not look careful at the planets in each persons area, and still be giving a big advantage to one or the other.

It's like stock car racing. In theory, all the cars are equal. (They aren't really, but enough so that the differences aren't drastic.) They all run on the same track. It all comes down to the strategy and execution of the driver and the crew on race day to keep it on the track and ahead of the other cars.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

So if we kept none and gas... what would be the proper way to equal those out with everything else.

The way I have it set up right now everything is 100 % equal on planet type and admosphere and size ( only difference is the values on the planet )

But like you I did not know how to deal with the none gas issue so I am trying to figure that one out.

David G... it is what I read out of your post. Thats all.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Fyron put my old balanced systems in the FQM if you want to take a look at them. I wasn't exactly thrilled with them, but they were the best I could come up with at the time.

Basically allowing all physical and atmosphere types means one or both of two things. More planets per system, and having more then one type of system aranged in such a way that while not perfectly balanced per system, across the quadrant on average they even out.

I am playing with some ideas. I may be able to come up with something that isn't perfectly balanced, but doesn't have a large difference between types, and yet doesn't have too many planets. What I am trying to decide is if it's more of an advantage to have fewer large planets or more numerous small planets. If I can decide that conclusivly I can play with the numbers so that the one at the disadvantage gets a few more facility spots.

Unfortunatly all I can come up with is that it's a personal choice thing. I can see pluses and minuses for both ideas.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe list out the plusses and minuses you see and compare notes with others.

Just to start:

Pro's
More Planets : more spaceyards, takes longer to clear you out of a system
Bigger Planets : Less investment in colony ships, easier to defend(?)

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

The big planets gain more benefit from Robotoid factories.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just a new member. Shrapnel as a username sounded good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Great mod, thanks Geo.

Bigger planets benefit more from bonus facilities and population bonuses.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

I can only speak for myself, when I played my KOTH game my start was horrible. I lost more than half of my ships that were sent through the SM BH, and those that did make it needed to be repaired. Often I would loose ALL of my colony ships, and that was a major factor in my ability to research as the worlds that I did colonize were dedicated to mineral production. And they were NOT good mineral planets.

Needless to say my opponent had a fantastic gold mine home system and surrounding. I think he was being kind to let me play for as long as I did.

A balanced mapping system for KOTH is a must. However, the map editor is, needs to be improved dramatically before we can achieve quick balanced maps.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Nice mod Geo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Would be interested in playing a (but not every) game with it.

Truth is I am pretty satisfied with the Tesco brand of maps. Sure, they are not all of the same quality, but they make exploring a bit more exciting, and gives you the oportunity to gamble a bit with your colony tech/athmosphere. You can take the safe route and go Rock/None or you can be brave. Sometimes it even pays off http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Thanks Geo! Like Atrocities, I think taht this MOD is a must be for KOTH games (and probably rated games too).
Thanks again!

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I disagree. While it may be a nice option for those that want it, if it becomes the default i will likely not rejoin KOTH. Starting behind a blackhole as you did is very unusual. And imaging what a great game it would be if you won. Some of my best games were those were at one point I was at a disadvantage and struggled through and won.
For me knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that there will be one and only one breathable planet in the next system makes the game less exciting. Heck I don't even like the 'no ruins' rule. This too takes away some of the excitment. finding ruins is fun.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's part of the game and the luck of the draw and all.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry I have to disagree with you here Atrocities.
The option of a balanced mapping system is required for KOTH type games when both players wish for this, but it should not be the default. You still need to ability to play a game where chance and luck is involved.

Mind you I say this with the knowledge that I need every piece of luck to beat some players here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I would use a balanced map in KOTH matches, but not all of them.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

You know balanced maps are a idea. Random unbalanced maps are for those who like a challange but for newbies a balanced map is needed to keep them in particpating in games for the medium term. I like systems that act as middle grounds with big green star planets but perhaps have multiple warp entry points to keep the players battling over the good systems. Storm systems around warp entry points also act as a trap.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

I must agree with those that are of the opinion that a balanced map shouldn't be the default. I was merely suggesting it as an option, much like the tesco maps are.

I too like the random element, and have had some games where I was succesful despite a poor starting position. Although to be honest that hasn't happened recently. The general level of skill among players has gone significantly up since KOTH started. It now takes all my skill AND a little luck to win these games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And I have seen plenty of games where the difference in starting positions was frankly insurmountable. Maybe I'll come up with something a little softer, mroe random, not quite so uniform, but still with less chance of one player being totally screwed over.

I would likely not want to use these for every game, although I would not object to anyone wanting to use them in any match. Where I would probably request it is in the top of the hill and king matches. It's hard enough to get through all the players it takes to get to the top of the hill. I would hate to spend weeks or months slogging up the hill only to lose the king match on turn 25 because of a poor starting position. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

You know perhaps generous starting systems with 4 or 5 good green planets to give you a good start and then poorer systems and then good systems in inner terriotary.

Once broadband takes off i would like to see the 255 system maps used. that would remove any such weightings and also ensure massive long games.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Parabolize and I are playing our game (starting tomorrow, I suppose) on it.

Another comment I havent seen: for all the people who think their chance for a win was marred by their position...now is the time to see how you REALLY measure up (i.e., no real excuses now!). I fall into that Category, thinking some positions have been bad for me. I've won some games and maybe thought it was more my skill than realizing how bad the map was for the other guy (sometimes, we humans overlooks stuff like that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

So, I'm ready to see what it's like when there isn't a lot of luck to favor one or the other.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Balanced maps take away some elements of chance from the game. If you think it is good or bad depends on what game types you prefer.
As 1:1 already has very few options when it comes to setup and strategy, balanced maps force players even more to do the standard optimum strategy, and the luck - which is finally the only deciding factor between equal opponents - is reduced to the outcome of one or two battles, i.e. most often how the AI doing the combats decides to follow the set strategies (or not).
I like SE IV for variety, not for the need to follow a clear narrow path of known optimal decisions as precise as possible. For me, KOTH got boring after I roughly have figured out this optimum. And with totally balanced starting conditions, I would find it even more boring. But it really depends - I also dislike chess for similar reasons, and a lot of people do like it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

Wow, Roanon, must be tough being from Germany and not liking chess much ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). Would only be worse if you were from Russia and didn't like the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

I played on a German chess team for the town of Gogginggen (ulaut in there somewhere) during my one of my stays in Germany.

Of course, these days, younger people like games with 3D graphics and kewl effects http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

New Version of Balanced System Mod available.

Version 1.2 available here.

This mod is only needed on the first turn by the game owner, so if you are only a player in the game you don't need it.

Version 1.91 has some data file changes unrelated to the Balanced system mod. Components file, facilities file, and Fyron's "Smooth pop Modifiers" were added to settings.txt. Because of this games created with Balanced Mod Version 1.1 will not work in "Host only" mode for Version 1.91 games.

This new Version 1.2 corrects the problem by incorporating the 1.91 data file changes into the mod. Version 1.2 is otherwise identical to Version 1.1

As long as the proper Version is used by the game owner when creating the first turn, the mod will be useable as a host only mod, that is, only needed to setup the map on the first turn and not needed by the players at all.

For games started with Version 1.84, use Balanced System Mod Version 1.1

For games started with Version 1.91, use Balanced System Mod Version 1.2

As long as the game owner follows this protocol, the players will not need to have the mod and should notice no difference from a stock game, other then having a balanced map.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

I'm using V1.1 in my Challenge game against Fire and it seems to work well (after a false start where I selected Rock,None).
The only thing I can say, is everytime I warp into a new system I'm wishing for a different system type. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Having plenty of money in a 1-on-1 game is certainly a change.

Re: Balanced Systems for KOTH games and other
 

If your challange game started on Version 1.84 and then was upgraded to 1.91 you won't have a problem at all. The only time the mod is used is for the first turn.

Eventually I will put out a Version of teh mod that has a little more variety in system types. I have some ideas how to do it, it's jsut a little complicated and I don't have time right now.

Geoschmo