OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Think about this for a second and ask yourself what is the universe?

Is it expanding and if so what is it expanding into? Is the universe a ballon expanding into nothingness or is it a ballon expanding into something else like say another universe.

Think of it like a ballon being filled with N2 expanding in an oxygen atomsphere. The interior of the ballon does not know what lays beyon the universe of the interior of the ballon.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

It is expanding into the vastness of the infinite void of space surrounding the matter and energy of the universe. The universe itself is infinite and not changing in size. It is just the matter and energy portions of the universe that started moving out after the big bang that are expanding.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm, how do we know this? I thought that the truly infinite is unprovable mathematically.

Imagine a vast empty plain with a tiny ant somewhere near the center.
TO THAT ANT the plain MAY BE infinite, but a man might be able to get to the edge. It may just be that our perspective is too small - Temporally and Spacially.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

How could there be an edge to nothingness?

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, that is difficult to imagine I agree!

Using another analogy, why does the air on Earth NOT expand throughout the solar system? Because of gravity!! Perhaps there is a mechanism that will halt the expansion of the universe the same way. WE JUST DO NOT KNOW!!!

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

I think you are confusing terminology... "the universe" includes everything, really. But, it is often used just in reference to the mass and energy of the universe that is expanding. Used to refer to everything, including the void that said mass and energy is expanding into, implies that the universe itself is incapable of changing size, as it is an infinite void.

If gravity were to cause the mass and energy of the universe to eventually start contracting again, the universe itself would still have that infinite sized void out there.

[ February 11, 2004, 02:59: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

I just have an aVersion to the whole concept of infinity. No one has ever been able to point to anything and PROVEN that it is infinite. Even the value of pi is not PROVEN to be an infinitely non-repeating variable!

So since there is no proof of ANYTHING being infinite; using infinite to describe the 'empty void' outside our universe is pure quesswork.

For all we know, our 'universe' may be about to 'bump-up against another 'universe'! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

How the !@%$ could you prove infinity? In the real world at least?

Here, I can now prove to you that something is infinite. Tell me any number. No matter how large that number will ALWAYS have a number larger than it and no matter how tiny it will always have another smaller.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Simply put Atrocities, we DO NOT KNOW what lies outside the observable universe. And although there are some theories that some appear to accept, the very nature of the universe makes it impossible for us to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what is beyond what we can see.

By the way, you should have considered becoming an astronomer with all the cosmological questions you ask. Either that, or Subscribe to some reputable astronomy magazines. The articles can be quite interesting, and answered a lot of the questions I had about the nature of the universe. Of course, they also raised a lot more questions! But I guess that's how you acquire knowledge, by asking questions.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

infinite number? 1/3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahhh, yes; but that would assume that I ever got done writing down my number. But since I am going for the very BIGGEST number, I would be still writing digits down when I died. So, FOR ME AT LEAST, there would still be no proof! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Ok. Any number you can think of, call it n, there is at least one number bigger than it, n + 1. There is no magical cutoff where you can no longer add 1. Thus, numbers can be infinitely large.

Also, you can in no way dispute the fact that 1/3 in decimal form is an infinitely long number. There is no point at which it magically drops the 3s. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ February 11, 2004, 03:57: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

it's called logical extension. once you've done 0.33, you can assume that it repeats infinitly, becuase, well, i'll let Fyron explain if it needs more explaining becuase my brain just crashed.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Your picture of an expanding balloon is not bad. But it's more like the universe is located on the SURFACE of that balloon. We do not have a "center" of the universe. Of course, this is a rough translation, as the universe is 3D and the balloon surface only 2D. Now you just have to think about a 4D balloon with a 3D surface http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

So, keeping that picture, it is very difficult to tell what the universe is expanding into, as there is no "into" - at least not for us. A two-dimensional being living on the surface of said balloon would not be able to comprehend the existance or location of an "inside" or "outside" of that balloon. For the same reason, it is not possible to locate the spot of the Big Bang, as it is equally distant from every spot in the universe but not located within that universe any more - we are not able to see the "inside" of that balloon and to the center there.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

OK. Think of it this way:

Nobody has ever written down a SERIOUS try at the ultimate number. At some point, every attempt was halted because of the time factor.
AND every attempt will be that way unless you know of a being that NEVER DIES. So just because these lesser numbers have always been able to be added to one, is no PROOF that there is no number where this is NOT the case.

Thus you LOGICALLY proved it, but NOT physically proved it!

The concept of infinity is not provable directly by its very nature. That is my whole point and the reason that I dislike the whole concept!

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

even nothingness is something.

Or you could look at it this way, nothingness is time static. You fall into a void, but no matter how far you fall time has no meaning because the void is timeless. So you could fall for a centillion years to the 1 centrilllionth power and not fall that far.

Example:

Tribes maps. The map exsist, it has form and function and it something that a tribes player can interact with and exsist upon. Fall off that map and you will fall forever into the void beyond. The nothingness that is the void is devoid of all forms of physical form and function. In a digital world if I fell from a tribes map in 1998 and left the game on, I would still be falling today.

But to grasp the concept that the universe is endless and is expanding into something, even if that something nonthingness, that nonthingness was there first, and had to give birth to the universe itself.

What came before the universe? All of this matter, energy, and such had to have come from somewhere it could not have just all of a sudden exsisted out of nothingness now could it?

And if we can understand the concept of time and space, the universe and death, why are we alone? No other creature on earth, that we know of, has ever, say for man, pondered the universe and what lays beyond it.

Mybe the universe only exsist as long as we think it does. That when the Last human dies, so dies this universe. So by reproducing, we keep the universe, and the genes that make up our race, passed down from one generation to the next for nearly a million years, stay alive.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Universe is a classic 8-bit starship command adventure game with ship design, systems energy management, spiraling orbits, etc., which came on four floppy disks in a cool padded binder.

It expanded into sequels Universe II, Universe III, Breach, Breach 2, Rules of Engagement...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is proveable by induction, which is a highly valid form of mathematical proof. "physically" proving that a number is infinite in length is silly and a waste of time.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is because there is only one form of sentient life on the Earth...

[ February 11, 2004, 04:22: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Atrocities, when thoughts like that start going through your head, it's an indication that your thinking to much. go watch spongebob squarepants, seriously, it's more productive than thoughts like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree. I also still maintain that stating that an infinite void exists outside the universe is also silly. Nobody knows. IT IS JUST IDLE SPECULATION - A GUESS.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

I agree with Fyron. The universe itself is not expanding. It's just the galaxies that are moving apart, and therefore it is just the observable portion of the universe whiich is expanding.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

The problem with sentience and the question of has anything else pondered this- is both are damn near impossible to negatively prove. Intelligence is not an on/off button.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is the single best and most conclusive answer to the arguement. The rest of you may sit down.

on a more serious and related note, the theory of dark matter is working on being disproven. entire models of the universe and what we know about it, may be based on faulty information and bad assumptions.

http://www.economist.com/science/dis...ory_id=2404626

I tend to plead agnosticism when it comes to questions like this, but honestly i enjoy believing that the universe is a product of its own imagination, and exists because it wills its self to. sort of like reality being a concentual halunination, but not quite.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Experiment: To Prove Or Disprove The Reality Of A Brick Wall

Ingredients: One Brick Wall, One Right Leg(Attached To Researcher), One Right Shoe(On Right Foot, Right Foot Attached To Right Leg), One Researcher

Plan: Propel Right Shoe Until It Impacts Brick Wall, By Means Of Muscles In Right Leg.

Prediction: Unable To Acertian. Brick Wall, Right Shoe, Right Foot, Right Leg Or Researcher May Be Hallucination, Delusion, Illusion Or Real.

Observation: Felt Right Shoe Impact Against Brick Wall, Impact Travelled Through Right Foot, Up Right Leg And Into Rest Of Researcher.

Conclusion: Unable To Draw Any Conclusion. Pain May Be Hallucination, Delusion, Illusion Or Real. Don't Care Anymore. Going To Soak Right Foot. OWW!

[ February 11, 2004, 05:43: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is a huge difference between intelligence and sentience. There are plenty of highly intelligent non-human animals that do not show any signs of sentience.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

There is no way to know for sure whether another creature on earth has pondered the universe and what lays beyond it. We like to think that only us humans are sentient and therefore special, but how do we know that, say, a dog isn't sentient? We can't get into the dog's mind and know what it's thinking.

Well, actually, I must admit that I'm not entirely sure what "sentient" means. I only learned that word in that Star Trek episode where Data had to defend his rights to be equal to a living being. Data had to be intelligent, self-aware, and sentient. So "sentient" is not the same thing as "self-aware". I guess it means something like having consciousness, but I'm not sure.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree. I also still maintain that stating that an infinite void exists outside the universe is also silly. Nobody knows. IT IS JUST IDLE SPECULATION - A GUESS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually it is more than just a guess... it too is based on logical reasoning. Also, the two things are completley unrelated. One can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the other can not be. Apples and oranges.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Existence Of Apples And Oranges Provisionally Accepted After Intense Experience Of What May Be Hunger Pains.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

I don't think that the universe will cease to exist when the Last human dies. Because there's a lot of evidence that the universe existed for a long time before the first humans appeared, we know the universe can exist without humans.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Unless, of course, that is all part of the illusion...

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Existance Of Some Sort Of Reality Provisionally Accepted For Lack Of A Better Alternative.

*opinions of researcher may not be opinions of wacko at keyboard.*

just in case anybody missed it, my recent statements have been cleverly concealed arguements that 'scientific arguements about things that can't be proven can only go so far before they go in circles. '

[ February 11, 2004, 06:24: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Can it be argued that the universe is only a single thought with many Subscribers?

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I suppose. But the only way to prove it, is to find the Mailing Host. You may look for "From:" field in the sky. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Borxes (sorry for spelling, I read it in Russian and have no idea how his name is spelled in Spanish) wrote a very fine short novel about God' constant creation of Universe and pushing us through the time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, I thought that I've already read all the translated short novels by Jorge Borges, but I don't remember this one. What is the title of this story?

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's my feeling. There are many other possible interpretations of the available data.

Quote:

... I tend to plead agnosticism when it comes to questions like this, but honestly i enjoy believing that the universe is a product of its own imagination, and exists because it wills its self to. sort of like reality being a concentual halunination, but not quite.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it's an interesting idea, and makes sense in a way. It's similar to what Attrocities wrote:

Quote:

Mybe the universe only exsist as long as we think it does. That when the Last human dies, so dies this universe. So by reproducing, we keep the universe, and the genes that make up our race, passed down from one generation to the next for nearly a million years, stay alive.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is similar to something everyone here should know from their gaming experience: It's possible to create a universe with imagination, which does exist in the same way that literature, and similar to the way memories, and even cosmologies, exist. It isn't physical within what we call our physical universe, but it exists as an idea. For people with brain damage or illness, for example, they experience very different worlds from the world others share. Different historical cosmologies are also akin to game worlds and all of the above, on a fundamental level, including whatever the latest cosmology is.

PvK

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

the universe is a mass psychosis? feel free to repeat that experiment - and disbeleive the brick wall all you want. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Well, I suppose the universe could be all an illusion, but I couldn't think of any reason why people might believe that. What is the rationale for thinking that everything is an illusion?

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

*deleted because of sarcasm*

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The point is that you would not really be able to tell if it was an illusion, so either viewpoint becomes just as arbitrary. Philosophical debate ensues. Much fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

much comments from the peanut gallery.

*munch, munch*

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

So, if everything is an illusion, there is no experiment that you could do to prove it one way or another, because all the results of your experiments would also be an illusion.

As for the universe being a single thought with many Subscribers... it's also possible that there is only ONE Subscriber. I mean, you don't know if anybody else besides you is real. I know that my own thoughts exist but maybe I'm dreaming everything and everybody around me. Sure hope that's not the case - that would be a rather lonely situation to be in.

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've actually done this with some success.

A girl, soon to be girlfriend, totaled her car about five hours from town. She had hit a deer, and very nearly reduced it to its constituent elements. Silly little sportscar didn't take it much better, but the girl was okay, mostly.

Anyway, I had already been up about eighteen hours at this point, because it was the weekend and I was staying up for poker.

On the way back, somewhere around twenty-six to twenty-eight hours of sleep deprivation, I started seeing things. This is fairly normal for me, I tend to start hallucinating fairly early in sleep-dep.

For the most part these illusions are pretty easy to ignore. They don't, as a rule, interact with reality, and only exist at the borders between area illuminated by my headlights (or occasionally the lights inside the car) and the darkness beyond.

I did, however, encounter one invigorating exception. The speed limit out here is seventy-five on most interstates, so while driving down the freeway at something close to 85 miles-per-hour I saw a brick house, right across the road, in front of me, at that distance where I could just barely distinguish between light and darkness.

So now I've got a choice, and it was one in which the conscious mind could not play to much of a role, both because it came so quickly and because the conscious mind wasn't exactly in prime decision-making condition. I kept driving.

My reasoning (or post-decision rationalization, it's hard to tell) was that if I stopped for the house and there was no house there, I would have done something awfully foolish, but if I kept driving and hit the house no one could really blame me.

After all, when you leave a house in the middle of Interstate 25 you should expect it to be run through with late-night travelers.

[ February 12, 2004, 11:36: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A Pet Psychic would disagree with that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Bah! You've all got it wrong. The universe isn't expanding, time is decelerating.

[ February 13, 2004, 03:08: Message edited by: Wydraz ]

Re: OT: What is the Universe Expanding into?
 

Wow, existential, man.
I think, therefore I am.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Incidentally, it can also be proven that there are an infinite number of prime numbers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ February 15, 2004, 03:54: Message edited by: Cipher7071 ]